Socionist defends Hı̇tler remarks
The Daily Telegraph: Reform UK candidate defends Hı̇tler remarks: Jack Aaron made comments about Nazi dictator as he promoted socionics, described by critics as pseudo-scientific theory
The Times: Reform UK candidate defends praise of Hı̇tler’s ‘brilliant’ tactics: Jack Aaron, who is standing against Grant Shapps, also described the Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad as ‘gentle’ as part of a pseudoscientific personalities theory
Unnecessarily sensational title.
I think there are mainly 2 things in self-actualization:
1. Fully realizing one's individual potential (fully developing one's auxiliary functions to aid one's life goals)
2. Understanding and incorporating the shadow into one's consciousness, reining in and not indulging on certain functions for a more balanced life and bigger purposes.
A lot of famous people have done well on the first, but not the second point (it's hard), so was the Führer. He's realized his personal potentials but the indulgence of NiTi is out of control, a spectacular failure.
Hmm…Last year, on Reddit, he said that Assad was “gentle by nature” and not “some bloodthirsty tyrant who exercises control over his people with an iron fist”.
He also said the dictator had been “led astray” by social stereotyping.
Basically claiming to known a person's true self, that they're “gentle by nature” contrary to observed behavioral traits like "crimes against humanity".Originally Posted by Poptart
If such rationale can be used to justify someone as "Si-valuing" (a LII), then anyone can make any argument they like. Which is a large part of my criticisms of for example typing Hı̇tler as EIE, or indeed, typing unhealthy or toxic or socially undesirable behavior as a manifestation of a type especially without a standardized instrument based on empirical observations.
Maybe if Assad is secretly gentle, maybe Hı̇tler was secretly bad at inspiring people.
Last edited by Enters Laughing; 06-27-2024 at 10:09 PM.
@Enters Laughing
Did you know about this when you described him as a conservative the other day (or whenever it was, I only saw your comment today)?
I personally think many people who post on this site are right-wing conseratives. maybe it's the general structure of typology (putting people in few tight boxes) that appeals to these sorts of people. Northstar, chriscorey, Poptart, Gayser, Adam Strange, Dog of Danger, Aaron a lot of frequent posters fall into that side, and I honestly do not like them. I did not get along with Aaron. I do not like him either. I don't have a strong opinion on the article, though. It does however remind me that I would never want to become a public figure. Reading some sentences seems very bizarre. "He used Fe and Ni and whatever" must sound very weird to anyone that does not know anything about socioncis. It also seems to me that he is using the theory for political advantages. it's easy to say you are correct because some theory said so. I fall pretty much in the opposite spectrum on politics regarding Aaron, and I would rather surround myself with left-wing people here.
I did not know Aaron had a big enough following to even become a person in the news world. I haven't interacted with him in years. I just thought back then than that he was conservative because of the way in which he handles socionics, which is exactly the opposite of how I'm seeing things, and reminds me more of Sol. It doesn't give that much space to any innovations, so I think he will never come up with anything insightful, and he won't attract people who would be innovative, but he will probably introduce more right-winger to socioncis, which is unfortunate. If you want to find people who are similar to HitIer, just browse 4chan's politically incorrect board
Last edited by Ikite iru; 06-27-2024 at 11:08 PM.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
If one uses socionics "correctly" one shouldn't think that some "types" are more likely to commit war crimes. Models are not people, they are like empty shell devoid of their essential substance namely the human condition. Therefore we can't use TIM and ITR as a main factor to predict the behaviors of real people.
Once again, there is a world of difference between the personality of an individual and his or her TIM. The personality is mostly relative to biographical factors (preverbal, childhood, family environment, maybe attachment styles, trauma or lack thereof etc..). The TIM is just about how the psyche decompose and metabolizes information acquired from the picture of reality.
The problem is that most people hijack socionics and turns it into a behavior predictor and confond TIM with personality which add confusion and misunderstanding. When People use the pronoun "They" to talk about these TIM which, again are just "charts", they are making the first mistake, that of humanizing an abstraction. A TIM is an "It" not a "He / She".
Ah, okay. The wording of the sentence made it sound like JOA described Assad as using social stereotyping
Accusing forum members of being right-wing conservatives on the basis of you not liking them is an interesting choice. Are you not “putting people into few tight boxes”? Thanks for the laugh.
It's just a way you come across, the things that you say. dunno what point your post even had but glad you had some laughs.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
Gosh, whoever selected those pictures of Jack Aaron for that article on him did not like him. They are far from flattering.
The Daily Telegraph: Reform UK candidate defends Hı̇tler remarks: Jack Aaron made comments about Nazi dictator as he promoted socionics, described by critics as pseudo-scientific theory
The Times: Reform UK candidate defends praise of Hı̇tler’s ‘brilliant’ tactics: Jack Aaron, who is standing against Grant Shapps, also described the Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad as ‘gentle’ as part of a pseudoscientific personalities theory
The first picture makes him look like an arrogant ignoramus who never matured past the age of ten.
The second picture makes him look like a sharply intolerant person lecturing someone who is "beneath" him.
I hope he's not running for elected office.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-28-2024 at 12:35 AM.
Hmm, you're wrong about me being a right-wing conservative, Ikite iru. I haven't voted for a conservative for decades. Not since I actually bothered to look at what Conservatives do, rather than what they say they will do.
I make regular monetary contributions to environmental groups and to PIRGIM, and have for over thirty years. I ride a bike when the weather is good. I recycle. I'm kind to small children and I respect the LGBT movement. I don't cut my lawn religiously (I don't do anything religiously) and I don't use fertilizer. I don't wash my car. I try to leave a small footprint on the planet, which isn't easy, being a US citizen.
I think there should be a basic minimum income. I think the rich should be taxed out of existence. I think college should be free, and the same with health care up to a certain limit. I think that corporations are not people, and should not have people's rights. I think that people running for office should receive a fixed amount of money for the purpose of advertising themselves prior to the election, and if they are found guilty of accepting cash or gifts for their campaign from private citizens or companies, should be hanged.
The list goes on...
I'm really much more liberal than most people in the States.
you worked for the military in the past. your "monetary" contributions to the environment are more than offset by the plane fligts you frequently take. you often write that getting rich is the most important thing. you might hate republicants but you aren't fooling me. I still see you as conservative looking at all the posts you have done here. you do not seem to be able to change your mind. you still stick with what you have learned a decade ago even when it doesn't make sense. I pay attention to who can adjust his mind.
Last edited by Ikite iru; 06-28-2024 at 09:36 AM.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
ppl who try to justify ****** are weird.
According to most descriptions EIEs are supposed to make great artistic and scientific contributions to society. So yeah, I don't see how the holocaust was that. I can see that when he worked with Albert Speer (who I believe was LSI), they did good things together (architecture). Jack Oliver Aaron doesn't seem to know socionics that much in-depth.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
I still work for the military. They always pay their bills, and they have interesting problems to solve. But I'll take any job that pays well and is interesting.
Yeah, I do feel bad about all the overseas plane flights. But sometimes, there's just no substitute for being there.
In the next century, if we can avoid civilization-level collapse, we'll all have portable Holodecks the way we have personal phones now, and we won't have to move physical bodies all over the planet.
I need to correct you on one point, because this might be type-related.. I'm an LIE, and "getting rich" was never my goal. Instead, it happened by accident, mostly as a consequence of being lucky while trying to live my own life, and not someone else's. But having money is about 99.44% luck. (Hell, I was born into a healthy, intelligent, straight white male's body and a middle-class family in America in the 20th century. That's like winning the lottery six times in a row.) I'm not driven to be rich. I'm driven to do what I want.
Money is just a side marker. It's not the goal. It's the oil in the car, not the destination.
Post Script:
Since I wrote the above, I've been thinking about luck and "getting money", and whether or not there is anything that a person can do to improve their chances of getting either one of these.
With respect to luck, I'd say that a person should work as hard as they can, so that when an opportunity arises, they are ready to take advantage of that opportunity. With respect to "getting money", I'd say, "live below your income."
An income of $36k and expenses of $45k = misery.
An income of $36k and expenses of $30k = security.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-28-2024 at 12:23 PM.
Basically what this person wants is to have the least exposure to ideas that are not his own as possible. Meanwhile he holds this false pretense of being open minded. He's just a huge baby, should not be taken seriously whatsoever. You don't have to take wimps like this seriously to be a "true liberal". Liberals need to learn to setup some boundaries to keep the dunces from dominating their movement.
Last edited by DogOfDanger; 06-28-2024 at 12:17 PM.
I wish that there were any ideas, but you guys don't come up with anything of substance
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
When I first got into Typology, I assumed that H!tler was IEI, because I have a male IEI friend (he married my sister), and they seemed pretty similar. My friend would go along, talking nonsense in a normal voice, and if anyone disagreed with anything he said, it was Blitzkreig and nuclear war right now!
I didn’t know any EIE’s at the time, so I just assumed he was IEI. “The other Beta NF.”
Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-28-2024 at 10:31 PM.
Tbh socionics doesn’t captivate me like it used to. I’m mostly here for the music thread and the random thought thread. If my lack of serious discussion bothers you, you can add me to your ignore list.
That's what I've always did. That explains why I feel like I'm rich while technically I am supposed to be among the poorest. My income is almost three times less than the poverty line in France. This means that I only have a third of the income of a poor person. Yet my bank account shows five figures... I live alone in an apartment with all the comforts. I pay a derisory sum in terms of rent. All my medical care is free. I am totally in control of my time. I could go around the world without the slightest constraint, but I've been in a hikikomori phase (more or less) for the last nine years. I even have the right to double my income thanks to a special pension because of my mental health issues (like my anxiety disorder) but I haven't claimed this right (yet !). I guess I'm lucky too...
I've no idea if he did, and I'm far from confident that the journalists are capable of accurate reporting with appropriate context.Ah, okay. The wording of the sentence made it sound like JOA described Assad as using social stereotyping
I think you'd probably consider me a right-wing conservative at least in part if we had not had long, amiable discussions in the past.
That's because he's EIE.
Are you intentionally paraphrasing Charles Dickens?:
“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six , result happiness.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery”
― Charles Dickens
Jack Aaron
Jack Aaron said he was 'doing a personality type analysis, and as I do that I look at their natural strengths and their natural weaknesses'
A Reform UK election candidate has defended himself after it emerged that he had described Adolf ****** as “brilliant” at using personality traits to “inspire people to action”.
Jack Aaron, standing for Nigel Farage’s party against Grant Shapps in Welwyn Hatfield, made the remarks as he promoted socionics, which critics call a pseudo-scientific theory about personality types.
In online posts, the psychologist also described Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian dictator, as “gentle by nature” and suggested that Vladimir Putin’s use of force in Ukraine was “legitimate”. He said his comments were psychological analyses, not endorsements of their actions.
In a post on X, formerly Twitter, in 2022, he wrote that ****** was “brilliant in using Fe+Ni [socionics personality traits] to inspire people into action” while criticising his “basically incoherent […] writing and rationale”.
Speaking to The Telegraph, Mr Aaron said: “I was doing a personality type analysis, and as I do that I look at their natural strengths and their natural weaknesses.
“I’m not looking at ****** as a good person or bad person. In my personal view, he’s the most evil person to exist. He killed multiple members of my own family. My grandfather fled Vienna in order to escape the Holocaust. So naturally I’m a bit upset about the suggestion that I’m admiring Adolf ******.”
Mr Aaron, the founder of the World Socionics Society, described socionics as a “pre-science” and said his “key contribution” was “rooting out pseudo-science” from it.
Three days after Russia invaded Ukraine, he said it was incorrect to claim that Putin was “insane”, adding: “The motivation to acquire and wield force is legitimate, and there is a whole group of personality types inclined to this, and they have historically shaped the world we live in.”
However, he insisted he was “not pro-Putin, I’m pro-Ukraine”, adding: “When I said he was legitimate, I’m not saying Putin breaking the international order to invade Ukraine was a perfectly nice thing to do. Absolutely not.
“The idea of using force to take things… is still a legitimate point of view in history because you look at Alexander the Great, you look at Julius Caesar, every single conqueror. The idea of conquerors has shaped our history so, rather than calling Putin insane, put him in the context of world history.”“I’m not looking at ****** as a good person or bad person. In my personal view, he’s the most evil person to exist.Last year, on Reddit, Mr Aaron said Assad was “gentle by nature” and not “some bloodthirsty tyrant who exercises control over his people with an iron fist”.
He stood by the comments, saying: “Bashar Al-Assad is a gentle, even quite weak, individual. Not to say he is a nice man but that he is a gentle man but, because of his weakness, he can’t fight off the situation he’s been born into. He’s a puppet.”The lesson here is that if you're going to cite qualification as a psychologist when pronouncing on issues of morality, legitimacy, sanity etc., you ought to use a standardized instrument that has been empirically verified."I strongly believe, as a psychologist, in separating intelligence and talent from morality, so that we can adequately diagnose problems and help people.
"By no means am I saying ****** or Putin or al-Assad are good people that we should admire. They range from the absolutely ingenious evil to wannabe warlord to weak man born into a brutal regime of death and destruction."
I think it can be meaningfully said that people with particular personality traits distinct from personality disorders (like psychopathy) are more likely to commit genocide, for example, people extremely low on the Big Five personality trait of Agreeableness, but I don't think it's acceptable to use an unproven system to label people as being of one type or another based on how much genocide they've committed. It's not acceptable according to many codes of conduct for professional psychologists to assess someone's personality in this way even with empirically verified checklists of descriptions/traits/items if the individual is not their patient, nor is it acceptable according to such codes of conduct to do this publicly, but this still happens most notably with politicians and criminals and others of that kind.If one uses socionics "correctly" one shouldn't think that some "types" are more likely to commit war crimes. Models are not people, they are like empty shell devoid of their essential substance namely the human condition. Therefore we can't use TIM and ITR as a main factor to predict the behaviors of real people.
Once again, there is a world of difference between the personality of an individual and his or her TIM. The personality is mostly relative to biographical factors (preverbal, childhood, family environment, maybe attachment styles, trauma or lack thereof etc..). The TIM is just about how the psyche decompose and metabolizes information acquired from the picture of reality.
The problem is that most people hijack socionics and turns it into a behavior predictor and confond TIM with personality which add confusion and misunderstanding. When People use the pronoun "They" to talk about these TIM which, again are just "charts", they are making the first mistake, that of humanizing an abstraction. A TIM is an "It" not a "He / She".
Also very low conscientiousness I think. Lack of duty leads to an openess to anything . It is almost criminal in my book.
Black & white is a shallow divide ∕∕division is the color that multiplies
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell
Watch out for the quicksand, an hour glass isn't worth watching when the cook is done⧗
A little better makes better more
♦♦
Indeed, it not only doesn't conform with the code of Ethics and conduct but it is also unwise in terms of political carrier in the long run. Jack kinda shoots himself in his own foot as it were with this controversy. Like I said in the chat, having a socionics expertise in one's curriculum doesn't play in one's favor politically.
That said, I like Jack !
I don't care. I just chose random names, could have named necrosebud, end, aster and many others as well. it was more of a coincidence.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
I was thinking about that. you seem more like a centrist and probably lean towards right or left depending on the circumstances. I don't care too much about it but it becomes noticeable when it's very pronounced in one direction. I feel the same way about godslave. I think xerx is an example of a leftist, but most people here are centrist/right-wing yeah.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
This is the article with the Assad quote I was referencing https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-b2564215.html. I’m not a fan of JOA’s politics, but it’s pretty clear that the headlines are intentionally misleading. It is however a rite of passage for an aspiring politician to be quoted out of context, so congrats to him on that milestone lol.
Last edited by Poptart; Yesterday at 01:16 AM.
Yes, all journalists are of course biased not only by their natural psychological biases but also by the editorial position and overall policy of the media they work for. That said, oriented articles with like you said "intentionally misleading headlines" are, as insidious as they sound, pretty commun. Unfortunately, that's kinda the name of the game....
Lack is the Muse of all Poets
Probably true, I just don't have that in my memory at the moment: low agreeableness and low conscientiousness for prison populations is certainly true.
I agree with your comments generally although I don't really care to wonder about whether or not an action is seen to be "politically correct" by the masses - apart from anything else, I have no desire to become a politician. I've just given my thoughts about what extent I personally found actions to be appropriate.
I think it'd be highly inaccurate to call me "right-wing" on the whole, and it's probably inadvisable to judge a person's general ideology based on for example their stance on a distant war, at least if conversing with individuals with nuanced viewpoints rather than say speculating about groups of people that you are talking about.
well you asked me for my opinion. I don't think it's judgements for me, or maybe it is. I just naturally pay attention to where people stand and whether or not it's safe to maintain contact. I am like this in real life too, very cautious to whom I become accustomed to. the wrong friends can make your life miserable. I still like your contributions on this site regardless of where you stand. it's almost impossible to see eye to eye with everyone.
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...ung-s-subjects
For the specific quote you were talking about ("He also said the dictator had been “led astray” by social stereotyping.", I feel like I'd need to see the source for that, because the sentence wasn't very clear to me (the reading I got from it was that Assad had socially stereotyping others, or that others had socially stereotyped others & led Assad astray, but it felt like something else might have been meant too).
I think what I was doing is called intentionally "stealing" from Charles Dickens.
This is an exact description of my EIE friend.
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