Israeli–Palestinian war (2023)

[Kernel]

I don't want to turn this thread into my blog but what gets me is not that people are outraged at Israel's actions (the colonization of Palestinian lands and bombing of civilians is outrageous) but that their outrage is selective. I've heard one person (irl) talk about how Western governments are supporting the Ukraine and doing nothing for Palestine. This person was outraged for Palestine, yet they themselves didn't seem to care about Ukraine. So they are accusing governments of being selective (which is probably not even true, but I digress) and yet being selective themselves. This isn't to mention that not a word is said by these same people against China either. I'm not defending the actions of Israel here, just to be clear. I just wish people would use their brain more, instead of letting themselves get riled up. If you're gonna get riled up, do so in a way that isn't so selective.

Oh why don't you talk about Sudan genocide too?

You didn't even mention it, you are so selective. Why are you just focusing on China?

You are missing the whole point. It's an easy fact, Israel is trying to slaughter all Palestinians to take the land, and it started yeaaars ago not just on the 7th of October. Now it has just reached a hellish point that most countries are getting fed up with Israel and the USA because they have broken international laws and they are acting entitled and like spoiled brats.

What a civilized country...

[Ave]

Do you care about the Palestinian people?

[Ave]

if you support this delusional, fascist idiot you are a fool yourself.

I don't know what that would mean to "support" him. I have read through his posts, and don't understand what beef you have, though, since he seems reasonable.

Also, accusing me of being a fool is not very friendly, especially since I am not even sure what that implies.

[Ave]

Israel is trying to slaughter all Palestinians to take the land

I doubt they are trying to slaughter all Palestinians. They are commiting war crimes, yes, but not genocide. Genocide would imply the intent to wipe out the Palestinian people, and I don't think that's the case - I think the intent behind the bombing of Gaza is that Netenjahu wants to stay in power (in the face of accusations in his own country) and the war is a distraction from that.

[aixelsyd]

I doubt they are trying to slaughter all Palestinians. They are commiting war crimes, yes, but not genocide. Genocide would imply the intent to wipe out the Palestinian people, and I don't think that's the case - I think the intent behind the bombing of Gaza is that Netenjahu wants to stay in power (in the face of accusations in his own country) and the war is a distraction from that.

Israelis have admitted they want the land cleansed. They see every Palestinian as complicit in terrorism. Every child is a future terrorist. Every woman is a terrorist breeder. The old people also must be wiped out.


Will they say this outright to a Western audience? Of course not. That would be idiotic. They count on the West to be gullible sheep who gulp up propaganda, and the Israelis are not wrong. This very thread is damning proof of how simple-minded many are with the same people bleeting the same BS talking points to the point anyone with sense has given up on trying to reason with these drunk with the Orwellian Kool-Aid.
A genocide is playing out on our phones and still people are too stupid to believe their eyes without having someone try to spin a spell of excuses to get the people to not believe their eyes.
Shit, Piers Morgan...Piers Morgan ffs...even he is changing his narrative because I presume he has scene the primary sources and has enough of a brain to make an educated guess of what is really happening and noticing 2+2=/=5 even though the propogandists will yell till they are blue in the face saying otherwise.

[Ave]

Israelis have admitted they want the land cleansed.

"Israelis" - yes, that old fart has an opinion. "Even" Western media admits these radical rabbi types have some influence on Netenjahu but it doesn't add it up to that being the main motive of the Israeli government. Noone is denying there are radical Jews in Israel who want the Palestinians wiped out, but I don't think that's a majority opinion in Israel. You say "Israelis have admitted" - which ones? And how dies this add up to it being a general motive behind Israel's actions? Sorry but it's misleading of you to phrase this argument as you did.

Will they say this outright to a Western audience? Of course not. That would be idiotic. They count on the West to be gullible sheep who gulp up propaganda, and the Israelis are not wrong. This very thread is damning proof of how simple-minded many are with the same people bleeting the same BS talking points to the point anyone with sense has given up on trying to reason with these drunk with the Orwellian Kool-Aid.
A genocide is playing out on our phones and still people are too stupid to believe their eyes without having someone try to spin a spell of excuses to get the people to not believe their eyes.
Shit, Piers Morgan...Piers Morgan ffs...even he is changing his narrative because I presume he has scene the primary sources and has enough of a brain to make an educated guess of what is really happening and noticing 2+2=/=5 even though the propogandists will yell till they are blue in the face saying otherwise.

Well, I personally would like to see more evidence of genocidal intent. There is evidence that Hamas is hiding among civilians and Hamas leaders have made many public claims (you can look them up for yourself) about having having a "martyr people" benefits them. What do you make of that, or is that just Israeli propaganda made to fool Westerners?

[Ikite iru]

Will they say this outright to a Western audience? Of course not. That would be idiotic. They count on the West to be gullible sheep who gulp up propaganda, and the Israelis are not wrong. This very thread is damning proof of how simple-minded many are with the same people bleeting the same BS talking points to the point anyone with sense has given up on trying to reason with these drunk with the Orwellian Kool-Aid.
A genocide is playing out on our phones and still people are too stupid to believe their eyes without having someone try to spin a spell of excuses to get the people to not believe their eyes.
Shit, Piers Morgan...Piers Morgan ffs...even he is changing his narrative because I presume he has scene the primary sources and has enough of a brain to make an educated guess of what is really happening and noticing 2+2=/=5 even though the propogandists will yell till they are blue in the face saying otherwise.

I've shared this channel in the shoutbox I think. Worth watching. All these arguments about why don't you support ukraine etc. are straw man. It's the enlightenment west vs. middle east barbarians for such people. sometimes I wonder how enlightenment they would be without fossil fueled sponsored imperialism.

[FreelancePoliceman]

"Israelis" - yes, that old fart has an opinion. "Even" Western media admits these radical rabbi types have some influence on Netenjahu but it doesn't add it up to that being the main motive of the Israeli
government.

So when Netanyahu says the war is against Amalek, the nation ancient Israel was commanded by God to genocide, I suppose that means nothing.

No one is denying there are radical Jews in Israel who want the Palestinians wiped out, but I don't think that's a majority opinion in Israel.

Israelis post anti-arab racism every 46 seconds.

From 2016: Nearly half of Israeli Jews believe Arabs should be expelled from Israel

45% of Israeli Jews don't think Arabs should have equal rights; six percent said "it depends.

This is what Israeli Jews felt comfortable saying in public before this war.

More recently, thousands of Israeli Jews just marched through a Palestinian area of Jerusalem chanting "Death to Arabs."

You say "Israelis have admitted" - which ones? And how dies this add up to it being a general motive behind Israel's actions? Sorry but it's misleading of you to phrase this argument as you did.

The deputy speaker of the Knesset for one.

Well, I personally would like to see more evidence of genocidal intent.

South Africa's genocide case against Israel documents six pages' worth of quotes demonstrating genocidal intent from Israeli lawmakers and military leaders, beginning at page 59:

the president of israel: " “It’s
an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware
not involved. It’s absolutely not true. … and we will fight until we break their backbone."

Israeli Minister of Defence: advised that Israel was “imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No
electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and
we are acting accordingly.” He also informed troops on the Gaza border that he had “released
all the restraints”, stating in terms that: “Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will
eliminate everything. If it doesn’t take one day, it will take a week. It will take weeks or even
months, we will reach all places.”He further announced that Israel was moving to “a full-
scale response” and that he had “removed every restriction” on Israeli forces.

Israeli Minister of Energy and Infrastructure: “All the civilian population in Gaza is ordered to leave immediately. We will win.
They will not receive a drop of water or a single battery until they leave the world.”457 On 12
October 2023, he ‘tweeted’: “Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on,
no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are
returned home. Humanitarianism for humanitarianism. And no one will preach us morality

Israeli Minister of Heritage: “The north of the Gaza Strip, more beautiful than ever. Everything is blown up and
flattened, simply a pleasure for the eyes … We must talk about the day after. In my mind, we
will hand over lots to all those who fought for Gaza over the years and to those evicted from
Gush Katif” [a former Israeli settlement].460 He later argued against humanitarian aid as “[w]e 62
wouldn’t hand the Nazis humanitarian aid”, and “there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians
in Gaza”.461 He also posited a nuclear attack on the Gaza Strip.

Israeli Minister of Agriculture: On 11 November 2023, Avi Dichter in a television
interview recalled the Nakba of 1948, in which over 80 percent of the Palestinian population of
the new Israeli State was forced from or fled their homes, stating that “[w]e are now actually
rolling out the Gaza Nakba”.

Deputy Speaker of the Knesset and Member of the Foreign Affairs and Security
Committee: On 7 October 2023, Nissim Vaturi ‘tweeted’ that: “[n]ow we all have one common
goal — erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth. Those who are unable will be
replaced.

A former member of the knesset:

“I tell you, in Gaza without exception, they are all terrorists, sons of dogs. They must be
exterminated, all of them killed. We will flatten Gaza, turn them to dust, and the army will
cleanse the area. Then we will start building new areas, for us, above all, for our security.

...and much more. But no "evidence of genocidal intent" will ever be enough for you; let's be real.

There is evidence that Hamas is hiding among civilians and Hamas leaders have made many public claims (you can look them up for yourself) about having having a "martyr people" benefits them. What do you make of that, or is that just Israeli propaganda made to fool Westerners?

Where exactly do you think Hamas should set itself up? Gaza is 25 miles long; the city is about the size of Detroit. It doesn't exactly have much space to move. The IDF meanwhile has its headquarters in central Tel Aviv, surrounded by a hospital and apartments. If someone wants to bomb it, the terrorists of the IDF with no regard for human life will force them to cause collateral damage, I suppose you'd say.

Israel's military admits to having used human shields over 1200 times.

They have tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields for long before the current war.

But somehow it's always Hamas accused of using human shields, because it operates in an open-air prison with nowhere else to go. Even though Israel has bombed occupied hospitals, churches, mosques, and schools, and Israeli soldiers have intentionally killed their own fleeing citizens, foreign aid workers, and journalists -- you know, since Hamas apparently uses human shields, you'd think they'd have caught on that their enemy doesn't mind killing whoever anyway.

[Ikite iru]

https://x.com/bernstein_ariel/status...70170522112146

Zionism is the modern day equivalent of nazi-germany but remember, it's antisemetic to oppose this. Cut off water and electricity, use propaganda and brain-wash them. Those are the words of reason. What a joke some people are.

[Ave]

...and much more. But no "evidence of genocidal intent" will ever be enough for you; let's be real.

Now, now, assumptions, assumptions. I am willing to change my mind in the face of evidence, not sure that's the case for everyone here though.

So maybe I was wrong about Israel policy and genocidal intent.

It doesn't make me sympathize with Hamas, though both sides are genocidal and fucked up. I don't even care who the lesser evil is. How do we measure evil? By the amount of people killed? By the intent? Who cares, they're both evil and if the endgame is to side with one over the other, count me out; both sides suck.

Sadly, it's not gonna get better either. Hatred is spiraling on both sides and moderate leadership has less and less favor.

[Ave]

Where exactly do you think Hamas should set itself up? Gaza is 25 miles long; the city is about the size of Detroit. It doesn't exactly have much space to move. The IDF meanwhile has its headquarters in central Tel Aviv, surrounded by a hospital and apartments. If someone wants to bomb it, the terrorists of the IDF with no regard for human life will force them to cause collateral damage, I suppose you'd say.

Israel's military admits to having used human shields over 1200 times.

They have tortured Palestinian children and used them as human shields for long before the current war.

But somehow it's always Hamas accused of using human shields, because it operates in an open-air prison with nowhere else to go. Even though Israel has bombed occupied hospitals, churches, mosques, and schools, and Israeli soldiers have intentionally killed their own fleeing citizens, foreign aid workers, and journalists -- you know, since Hamas apparently uses human shields, you'd think they'd have caught on that their enemy doesn't mind killing whoever anyway.

No, you are right here. Who am I to question that Hamas uses human shields? Maybe I should iron the Palestinian flag onto my jacket, shout slogans, and I'd be considered less of a tool. But no, you and Alive and others are right, this war really is one-sided, poor Hamas, how unworthy they are of these accusations, I am such a fool for being so skeptical. And while we're at it: hail Ché, hail Mao, the liberators of humanity we know and love! Kumbaya, where's my MR16, viva la revoluçion, comandanté!

[Ikite iru]

Don't pretend like you were sitting on the fence. You already were heavily leaning towards one direction. You are right, who are we to question the bombing of civilians? Use propaganda and supression to mold society according to your whims.

[Kernel]

Article which shows that Israel is and has been torturing and raping Palestine Civilians
http://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/06/wo...vfB2gzDWOJ7sMY

[xerx]

Israel simply wants Hamas to retract its declaration of Jihad and recognize it should continue existing, since Hamas's stated goal is to bring an end to Israels existence. Until this happens no progress toward peace can begin... Israel is not demanding that Hamas "accept its ideology", i.e. convert to Judaism. That's what you actually just said...
Now, Isreal IS a Jewish state, so that WILL mean Hamas recognizes a Jewish state, and that IS something Hamas struggles with doing. But that's not the ask from a legal standpoint, it's just the psychological process Hamas must go through, as fundamentalist Islamicists, in learning how to interact with its neighbors... but that's Hamas's problem, that's not a legal problem. What's being asked is simply that Hamas abide by international laws and treat its neighbor in a peaceful manner, essentially. Whatever psychological hurdles Hamas has to go through to reach that point - well that's just something Hamas has to deal with. But fundamentally it is not Hamas's business whether Israel is a theocracy... The majority of Israels population is Jewish and by the rights of self-governance they may choose to elect a government that is theocratic, and call themselves a Jewish state, this is their business...

The critical point you seem to be missing, which has now been made repeatedly but I will make again, is that when we speak of Hamas recognizing Israels right to exist we're actually referencing Hamas's own language which they defined for themselves in their charter.


Iran has a right to exist as an Islamic theocracy, or as any other type of non-fascist government whether that be a democracy or dictatorship or whatever else. You're flying off toward the foul pole here - it's for the people of Iran to contend with whether they should be ruled by a theocracy or some other form of government. The form of government is an internal matter, it is not a sticking point in international relations. If, in the case of Iran, their ideology leads them to fund terrorism around the world ... or if they're committing abuses against their people, well then it does matter, but short of that it does not matter outside of Iran.

You're confused about the phrase "right to exist as a Jewish state". Israel isn't asking to be left alone to mind its own business. What Israel wants is for the Palestinians to formally accept its self-selected identity as a Jewish state. In other words, it wants to inscribe its state ideology directly into Palestinian law.

It would be as if Iran demanded recognition of its right to exist as an Islamic theocracy --- by demanding that others accept the regime's ideological claim that Vilayet-e Faqih is the legitimate form of government over Iran --- as an all-or-nothing precondition for diplomacy. It would as if France required its treaty partners to recognize the legitimacy of its laïcité, or if China demanded to be accepted as Marxist-Leninist in exchange for diplomatic relations, nevermind all other ways in which French and Chinese nationhoods can be articulated. These various national grand narratives may or may not be correct, they may or may not be good, but there is zero legal obligation for anyone else to accept them or their underlying assumptions.

This conversation has gone to the land of loony tunes...
Hamas recognizing Israels existence means, essentially, that they stop striving to destroy Israel. It is really that simple. I don't understand how you are confused by this... In reality Hamas is religiously motivated, and strives to destroy Israel because Israel is a Jewish state, and so therefor Hamas does need to accept that Israel - a Jewish state - exists. However, accepting a Jewish state is not legally or functionally what Hamas is being asked to do, this is just the psychological process the fundamentalist Islamicists in Hamas will have to go through to operate as they are expected in accordance with international laws - laws surrounding declarations of war and so fourth. Let me remind you that no international court questions whether Israel had a right to declare war post Oct 7 - they may be questioning Israels methods, that is another matter. But Hamas's attack on Oct 7 is not seen as legally justified by any international court anywhere. What's being asked of Hamas is simply that they drop the declaration of Jihad, recognize Israel as a state, and begin normalizing relations with Israel - which ultimately means working toward a two state solution.
I do not understand how you could get so confused on this point here, this isn't complicated. But then again... this whole conversation has been a testament to your inability to follow simple reasoning.


This argument is just an attempt at obfuscating the issue.
Firstly, this language is defined in Hamas's charter and is used there to justify the declaration of Jihad. And the statement where they stated their willingness to accept land but won't recognize Israels right to exist also appears in the in charter, literally in the same document. So literally they themselves defined what they mean by this statement. But when we say Hamas must recognize Israels right to exist we're speaking to their self-stated attitudes. Legally what they're being asked to do is to stop seeking to destroy Israel. And they have publicly declared destroying Israel is their goal, and they have made no public statement that suggests they wish to change this goal. So wtf is your point...?

No, what I said is that Israel has rejected multiple Palestinian peace initiatives, and that a Hamas change of heart wouldn't change anything --- settlement would continue and maybe accelerate with Kahane extremists in charge, Gaza would remain under crippling blockade and surveillance, and the Palestinians would remain as a serf underclass. Frankly, given these failures of Palestinian diplomacy, it isn't exactly a bold suggestion that Hamas' popular appeal comes not insubstantially from its aura of resoluteness in taking a provocative anti-Israeli stance, in contrast to the ineffectual and collaborationist Palestinian Authority, and that Hamas propaganda goes to great lengths to refine this image.


That article (here it is again) was written by a renowned expert on international relations.

It says that Israel isn't entitled to receive recognition under international law, nevermind as a Jewish state, and neither does any other country. Israel has the legal right to territorial sovereignty within its internationally recognized borders. That's it, and that's good enough to designate a de facto right to exist. No one is obligated to de jure accept Israel's right to exist by accepting the worthiness of the Zionist project.

[xerx]

When I talk about Hamas using human shields, I am talking about their mixing in with the civilian population, installing their opertaions within homes, hospitals. And yet when the Palestinian population gets bombed, Hamas does not invite the children into the tunnels, no they prefer, as they have claimed many times, to have a "martyr population", so as to advance their own "cause". And here's the thing: the manipulation by Hamas is working.

I absolutely do not understand this reasoning. The target of Israeli bombings is not the Palestinian population, it is Hamas. And the reason children and innocents are being killed in Gaza is not because Israel is indiscriminate in its bombings, but because Hamas is so (purposefully) mixed into the Palestinian population. What is worse, from the point of view of a civilian population (Palestinians) a government (Israel) bombing a terrorist threat (Hamas) or those terrorists hiding behind that population and using their deaths to manipulate people? I can't begin to understand the reasoning that places Israel above Hamas as a threat to the Palestinian people, based on what I know. That isn't to say that Israel is a a beneficial force to the Palestinians, clearly not, but if you care about the Palestinian people (as I do), I just do not understand why you would say Hamas, despite some of their claims, is a movement of Palestinian liberation.

The United Nations now reports that Israel has used sexual violence as a weapon of war, deliberately targeted civilians, deliberately bombed civilian areas for the purpose of causing maximum damage, prevented access to food, and has engaged in extermination (the United Nation's choice of words).



I'm unfamiliar with the processes of international investigation, I'm not qualified to make a decision on the rigorousness of these procedures or the accuracy of the UN's conclusions, and I'll certainly leave open the possibility that at least some of these findings are eventually disproved or toned down. I'll wait to hear the opinions of experts who study this stuff for a living, because I most certainly am not.

But I somewhat doubt that these findings were plucked entirely out of thin air, especially given the mounting expert opinion that Israel is now guilty of genocide. Assuming that Hamas really did operate out of hospitals (has that even been proven??), would it have even made a difference to Israel's choice to bomb civilian infrastructure?



Also, I never said that Hamas was a force for "liberation" --- liberation is a loaded term that has a subjective, ideological element. I said that Hamas was a force for national independence, which has a more precise meaning.

[xerx]

I'm not a fan of terms like "Islamophobic" or Christophobic" used in the same sense as antisemitism, as Islam and Christianity are not races, and antisemitism here refers to hatred of the Jews as a race, not as a religion. You could refer to racism against Arabs, though. It does exist, of course.

Let's just designate it all as "bigotry" and call it a day. It makes no difference to me whether Jews/Muslims/whatever are killed because of their race or because of their religious beliefs.

[Ave]

Don't pretend like you were sitting on the fence. You already were heavily leaning towards one direction. You are right, who are we to question the bombing of civilians? Use propaganda and supression to mold society according to your whims.

I don't think of this in terms of "sides", as in, having to be loyal to one side or sitting on a fence. I was more adamant in pointing out one's sides atrocities than the others, sure but that was also a reaction against people being one-sided the other way around.

I *did* change my mind about the use of the term genocide applied to the intent of the Israeli government, in light of evidence of such intent. But this is how it is on online forums: you change your mind, and you are called inconsistent. You don't change your mind, and you are called closed off to evidence. So, yeah whatever man.