Israeli–Palestinian war (2023)

[xerx]

Islam is the official religion of the Palestinian Authority. Again, this proves my point that you people will make up / say anything that you believe will win you the argument. Anyway, 85% of the population in the West Bank is Muslim, and 99% of the population in Palestine is Muslim, if you don't think Islam drives politics in these areas you are deluded. Practically every member of the governments in these areas is a Muslim, Palestine is one of the most densely Muslim areas in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_State_of_Palestine


The Palestinian Authority (PA) does not have a constitution; however ... The Basic Law was approved in 2002 by the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) and signed by then-President Yasser Arafat. The Basic Law states that Islam is the official religion
The PA requires Palestinians to declare their religious affiliation on identification papers. Either Islamic or Christian ecclesiastical courts handle legal matters relating to personal status.
...
Churches that are not officially recognized by the PA must obtain special permission to perform marriages or adjudicate personal status matters; however, in practice churches that are not yet recognized advise their members to marry (or divorce) abroad.
Since Islam is the official religion of the PA, Islamic institutions and places of worship receive preferential treatment according to the US Department of State.^[1] In the West Bank and Gaza, the PA has a Ministry of Awqaf and Religious Affairs, which pays for the construction and maintenance of mosques and the salaries of many Palestinian imams.
...
The PA requires the teaching of religion in PA schools, with separate courses for Muslim and Christian students. A compulsory curriculum requires the study of Christianity for Christian students and Islam for Muslim students in grades one through six. The PA Ministry of Education and Higher Education (MOEHE) revised its primary and secondary school textbooks. A U.S. Government funded review of Palestinian textbooks concluded that the textbooks did not cross the line into incitement but continued to show elements of imbalance, bias, and inaccuracy.^[1] Critics noted the new textbooks often ignored historical Jewish connections to Israel and Jerusalem.^[1]
…
The PA failed to halt several cases of seizures of Christian-owned land in the Bethlehem area by criminal gangs. In many cases criminal gangs reportedly used forged land documents to assert ownership of lands belonging to Christians. Police failed to investigate most of these cases. In two cases police arrested and then released the suspects on bail and allowed them to continue occupying the land in question. There were reports this reporting period that PA security forces and judicial officials colluded with members of these gangs to seize land from Christians.
...
Rhetoric by Palestinian militant groups include expressions of anti-Semitism. Some Muslim religious leaders preach sermons on the official PA television station that included expressions of anti-Semitism. Among these, in May 2005, Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayri preached a sermon in which he compared Jews to "a virus, like AIDS."
...
Atheists and irreligious people in Palestine face discrimination and challenges not faced by religious Palestinians. Waleed Al-Husseini, an atheist blogger, was arrested by Palestinian intelligence agents and spent 10 months in a West Bank prison for making online statements criticizing Islam, during which he was repeatedly abused and interrogated. He later fled to Jordan and lived in Paris.^[11][12] According to the Ma'an News Agency, while secular political beliefs are "not uncommon" in Palestinian society, "the expression of views seen as hostile to the dominant religions is viewed by many as incitement rather than free speech."^[13]


Israel claims it moved to occupy parts of the West Bank in response to terror attacks / cells located in those areas. Attacks which may or may not have been government sanctioned, we really don't know, but Israel has a basic right to self defense regardless. But again, if this were true it would not be much surprise.

The Palestinians are under brutal military occupation. They are unfree and destitute as a direct result. That's the primary reason for the Oct. 7th attack.

It didn't happen because some Palestinians read too much Koranic scripture.

[chriscorey]

I don't know why you try @DogOfDanger they seem to like talking out of their ass.

[timber]

If you joined Substack or even a social media site you would be having a much higher quality of conversation about this with more information. Did you know Netanyahu probably intentionally funded Hamas? Get out of your little socionics echo chamber and you'd hear these things too.

I've known the Prime Minister is a sociopath for years. Me and a SLE forumite had talked about it a number of times.

I don't really care to discuss this on social media cause I don't talk about this stuff online other than here. That's not the kind of social media presence I want to have.

[DogOfDanger]

I never dissected Hamas' motivation. What I said was that Islam isn't the only factor in the Palestinians' stance towards Israel. The Palestinians are under brutal Israeli military occupation, and they have been since before Hamas was even a thing; they don't need the Koran to tell them that they're being screwed over.

That's the problem with your argument, you aren't contending with the critical problem, Hamas.
Again, I'm going to repeat myself, you're obviously intentionally ignoring this:
It is not the Palestinians Israel would be negotiating with, it's Hamas. That is the governing body... the group that carried out the attacks on Oct 7, the group that calls for Israels destruction in the name of Islam, the group that Israel intends to remove from power through their invasion.. Hamas is the entire justification for the invasion. You cannot possibly discuss the motives of Israels invasion, and whether it's justified, without mentioning Hamas. It's like... trying to discuss the war in Ukraine without mentioning the Russian government / military. I've made this point in the last post, and you just deleted it from your response and repeated yourself..

But let's think... why do you not want to mention Hamas? Well it's probably because they're a fundamentalist Islamic organization, and they have stated plainly the reasons for the attacks are Jihad, Allah, and complete occupation of the holy land / dissolution of the state of Israel... so that pretty much destroys your argument that the war has nothing to do with Islam, doesn't it? So I can see why you'd avoid this topic, but in so doing you've rendered your argument meaningless as it sidesteps the critical issue, and you've shown that you will do and say anything to "win the argument" (but you can't win if you don't address the critical issue...). Consequently there's probably not much progress left to be made in this conversation...

As for the willingness to negotiate: The PLO (a staunchly secular organization)

Again, I have just shown you proof that Islam is the official religion of the PLO and yet you ignored it and repeated this falsehood.
You're in a mental situation where the facts tell you nothing... for you, facts are something to be interpreted or possibly ignored in service of your beliefs. It's obvious you will never change your mind... So... good for you? Go have your opinion, it's not changing mine, and it's obviously not an opinion shared by those making foreign policy decisions, so it's really inconsequential what you believe...

As for the willingness to negotiate: The PLO (a staunchly secular organization) accepted UN resolution 242 as well as Israel's right to exist, well before Hamas' rise to power in Gaza. The Palestinians nearly succeeded in concluding a treaty, and were very eager to do so, during the Taba summit in 2001 (in fact, both sides were seemingly eager — it was Israeli hardliners who terminated the negotiations). And it's Israel who repeatedly (year after year) votes against a two state solution at the UN general assembly.

Even Hamas had at one point agreed to accept a two state solution.

Again, the problem here is you actually read into the intent of the negotiating parties. There are two versions of history for all these historical events, the Israeli version and the PLO / Hamas version. Unless you can actually prove your version is correct... i.e. provide some evidence in this thread... you can make these claims all day but they're meaningless. And proof is not "here's a journal article with a journalist saying something". Some of your claim is going to be very difficult to prove. You don't need to merely prove the event occurred, you need to show the intent. Proving intent is always very difficult, but it's even harder when you have two clashing governments involved with the power to spin narratives in a way that suites them. There's so much information that will need to be verified and examined to show intent... I suspect you'd probably need a tribunal to sort it all out.
BTW - you say Hamas agreed to a two state solution. Well former Hamas members (such as the son of the founder of Hamas in the interview I posted in this thread earlier) have explained at length that Hamas uses the prospect of negotiation for leverage and as a delaying tactic, but does not intend to reach a two state solution as this goes against their founding ideals (which they establish in their charter and which you can see in their public statements they make to this day). So I'm very skeptical of this claim here, but you are free to try to prove Hamas's intent ... good luck with that one. Until you can manage it though this claim may as well be empty propagandizing for all anyone knows.

Being devoutly religious would presumably affect my judgment on metaphysics. But it wouldn't affect my judgment on politics or on anything else that is reified and open to examination by direct perception.

"And already have we written in the Book [of David], after the exhortation, that my righteous servants shall inherit the land."
Does that statement seem metaphysical to you?

How about this one-
"And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them ... kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims)."

Religion is not simply metaphysical.

Your statement here again shows how astoundingly ignorant you are about religion. Religion is primarily about morality, it provides a comprehensive moral framework, and this in turn has social / political implications. Have you ever read the bible or the Qu'ran? To believe in a religion is to adopt its moral framework. All the major abrahamic religions believe in the same God, they have the same metaphysics, what do you think distinguishes them...? What do you think Jesus was saying: "God exists because before the big bang there had to have been something, so...". No, he was making moral claims and statements, that is practically all he does... that's practically all the bible is about. Same with Muhammed. With the added detail he was an insane murderous megalomaniac ...
Go educate yourself before you speak on these topics, you are astoundingly ignorant.

You seem to take for granted your ideals, as if your ideals are objective and universal ... they follow directly from perception, and so have nothing to do with your own personal values / beliefs. Ideals don't work that way, they are not perceived in the objective world, they're expressions of deeply held values and emotional attitudes. Probably you inherited most your ideals from the culture, and you never really developed a strong foundation within yourself, so you just take them for granted... that would be my guess. Many cultural ideals you take for granted largely originated from the cultures founding religion, which if you're from the West that's Christianity. I know you probably don't like this, but it's quite easy to prove actually.

Not to put a fine point on it, but the causality ought to run in reverse: My politics alongside every other one of my temporal prejudices ought to circumscribe the range of religious belief that I find meaningful.

I think that economic prosperity does have some reductive effect on the religiosity of the population, but it takes centuries for a population to largely abandon their religion, assuming it ever happens... the US is probably the most decadent culture in the world and it has not even abandoned its religion yet... especially a strongly religious population such as Palestine which is 99% Muslim. It's something that could be worked toward, but it's not going to happen quickly. Meanwhile you still are stuck contending with these religious dogmas, which do not yield to reason and which mandate that the Muslims occupy holy Jerusalem. I've proposed in this thread a plan of installing a police state, building up an economy, dousing the population with propaganda, and over time hopefully reducing their Islamic fundamentalism... but at the very least, before any of that could be thought about, Hamas would have to be removed from power. Becuase Hamas is not going to change its mind, I'm sorry but go watch the videos of Hamas training 9 year olds to kill Jews, go read the Qu'ran, go read Hamas's statements - when people are that fundamentalist in their religious views they will hold onto them until death, a little economic development is not going to change the mind of such a person. For example, it is often the case that even plain facts will not change a persons mind (i.e. you're still insisting the PLO is a strictly secular organization). And it should be noted that the Qu'ran very explicitly calls for all of these things - Jihad, occupation of the holy land, etc.. Islam would need to be abandoned in the minds of Hamas for them to change their stance toward Israel.
But once Hamas is removed from power this is something that should be thought about.

[DogOfDanger]

I don't know why you try @DogOfDanger they seem to like talking out of their ass.

I suppose it's for the benefit of impressionable or ignorant bystanders. And maybe through the process I deepen my understanding of various issues. Years of internet debate with zealots like this have left me with no illusion that they're liable to change their minds.

[DogOfDanger]

The Palestinians are under brutal military occupation. They are unfree and destitute as a direct result. That's the primary reason for the Oct. 7th attack.

It didn't happen because some Palestinians read too much Koranic scripture.

This is just a claim, there's no substance to it. We don't need you to tell us what Hamas's motivations are, we can just go read their public statements, some of which I've posted earlier.
Palestinians did not plan / carry out the Oct 7 attack, Hamas did, once again we see you trying to avoid any mention of Hamas... it is just ridiculous.

[timber]

This is just a claim, there's no substance to it. We don't need you to tell us what Hamas's motivations are, we can just go read their public statements, some of which I've posted earlier.
Palestinians did not plan / carry out the Oct 7 attack, Hamas did, once again we see you trying to avoid any mention of Hamas... it is just ridiculous.

I think I saw the Canadian Government's official position on a two state solution is that Hamas plays ZERO part in both the negotiations and the Governance what-so-ever. They are a terrorist organization and therefore no G7 country will ever support them nor acknowledge any claims they make.

Not that Canada has any real political power at all, it doesn't. Former and current Governments have stripped its NATO powers by not investing in the military and Justin Trudeau is nearly universally hated within the country right now and he holds no political power (besides maybe the Indian Sihk assassination plot that unfolded last year which Trudeau called out India over).

The problem is that hate only breeds more hate, thats all it can do until someone surrenders and even then is the problem solved? It just gets trapped in the epigenetics and memetics and carried on without any real catharsis.

[DogOfDanger]

I think I saw the Canadian Government's official position on a two state solution is that Hamas plays ZERO part in both the negotiations and the Governance what-so-ever. They are a terrorist organization and therefore no G7 country will ever support them nor acknowledge any claims they make.

Makes perfect sense to me. Sounds like a wise decision probably based on sound intelligence gathering / understanding of what Hamas's motives are.

The problem is that hate only breeds more hate, thats all it can do until someone surrenders and even then is the problem solved?

Welcome to planet earth, where there are wars between nations / groups for a variety of reasons. I'm sorry that we aren't living in the land of Avatar... it would be nice if we were ... but we can't allow fantasies and ideals to overrule practical reality when making policy decisions, in this case the opposing party simply does not share your ideals.

[Xiu]

I'm seeing more and more evidence that Palestinians are violent radicalized people.

Here's the pillar of morality here. Pro Palestinians protesting cancer patients.

Maybe if you actually paid attention to the context of the video or what the protestor is saying , or what their signs say... you would understand their against american tax funded institutions (i assume this hospital being one of them) for providing support to the Israeli army, complicit in an extermination of Palestinians. I'd love for you to point out exactly where these people are "protesting cancer patients" do you even hear yourself?

And it's like you didnt read my message at all, yes if a group of people goes through almost a century of oppression, being displaced, abused and killed, they will likely become "violently radicalized" against their oppressor, crazy right?

[Xiu]

This is just a claim, there's no substance to it.

Yep, I mean I already thought you were an ape but calling the almost century old military occupation of a population being a major factor in the retalition against their oppressor simply a "claim, with no substance", is a little much even for a discrepancy like you LOL.

Who do you think makes up the Hamas...

[DogOfDanger]

That's not the claim, this is the claim: "That's the primary reason for the Oct. 7th attack.". Notice the difference between the word you used, "major", and the word that was actually used, "primary". Which is to say that the tenants of Islam are not Hamas's prime motivator. Despite their public statements... And yes, he did not provide a sufficient argument to support that claim.

By your definition the United States is an illegitimate nation founded on occupied land (as is just about every tribe or nation) - the Native Americans were driven off their land by the settlers... in a very similar manner to which the Palestinians were driven out of their land. The settlers moved in and displaced the natives, some of the natives retaliated violently... the settlers killed them and ultimately drove them from the land. Many natives were killed... and some settlers.
Did the native americans great, great, great, great grandchildren maintain the grudge to the point of demanding their enemies blood centuries later...? Are the native americans today intent on dissolving the United States and reclaiming all the land, including all settlements and assets developed by the colonial settlers over the last 300 years? No...
So you see it actually doesn't follow that a dispersed people will necessarily respond in the manner the Palestinians have.

One thing that's significant about the religious dogma is it could not be satisfied by a two state solution. Hamas demands in their charter return of all the holy land (i.e. all of Israel). When the native americans were put onto small native reservations they did not retaliate with another declaration of war, they just accepted the offer, went off to their land and lived their lives. Fortunately they had no religious dogmas impeding that from happening.

_________________

What you're calling "occupied land" is actually Israel, the modern nation of almost 10 million. Which is to suggest that Israel, the nation, should be dissolved. That's what Hamas believes, and that's what you just said.
Palestinians have been removed from that land. To say they are being "occupied" is actually very misleading since it implies there is some Israeli presence in the streets, policing the Palestinians cities and imposing their will onto the Palestinians. When infact... since Israel withdrew from Gaza the Palestinians have had no contact with the Israeli government in their daily lives.
For example, when the United States invaded Iraq and occupied Baghdad... the people there were living under an occupation. There was a military presence there with them in the streets, enforcing curfews and policing, imposing its will onto the Iraqis. That kind of thing could breed an uprising over time... but that is not what's happening to the Palestinian population - you try make it sound this way, but the Palestinians live under Hamas rule. And infact Hamas has done things like suspended the elections and taken control of the press, they've also stolen from the Palestinians. If anything the Palestinians are living under Hamas occupation ... Today the Palestinian children hear that their great grandmothers / possibly their grandmothers used to live in Israel, but were driven out, came to Gaza and reproduced, and then their kids reproduced, and then their kids reproduced... and they were born in Gaza, and have lived there their entire lives, and have never seen Israel or lived under Israeli occupation.
Well, before they attacked Israel and this war started that was the situation.

I've given your comment more attention than you really deserve but this whole occupation nonsense is worth addressing.

[chriscorey]

Maybe if you actually paid attention to the context of the video or what the protestor is saying , or what their signs say... you would understand their against american tax funded institutions (i assume this hospital being one of them) for providing support to the Israeli army, complicit in an extermination of Palestinians. I'd love for you to point out exactly where these people are "protesting cancer patients" do you even hear yourself?

And it's like you didnt read my message at all, yes if a group of people goes through almost a century of oppression, being displaced, abused and killed, they will likely become "violently radicalized" against their oppressor, crazy right?

The cancer patients have nothing to do with it. They were saying yell in the windows they can hear you. It's not morally right to harass sick and dying people.

You can go back in the thread. It's more complicated than them just being oppressed. It's like you're not reading the thread. They were booted out of the surrounding countries for starting wars. And they've wanted the Jews dead the whole time.



The Jewish gangsters are hidden.

Ignore the Jew because I know you hate them. But listen to the Palestinian news.

[chriscorey]

Palestinian/Arab hatred of the Jews. The complete destruction of the Jews. "from the river to the sea" But it's okay to hate Jews, right? It means it's okay to murder and rape innocent civilians if you're "oppressed" Is it oppression or is it Jews trying to defend themselves from terrorism?

This guy grew up in an Arab neighborhood in Australia. Just because we hate racism doesn't mean we're morally molested.

[chriscorey]

the concentration camp before the 7th



does it justify raping a women and shooting her in the back of the head before you're finished

[chriscorey]

A beautiful people suffering for Hamas

[xerx]

That's the problem with your argument, you aren't contending with the critical problem, Hamas.
Again, I'm going to repeat myself, you're obviously intentionally ignoring this:
It is not the Palestinians Israel would be negotiating with, it's Hamas. That is the governing body... the group that carried out the attacks on Oct 7, the group that calls for Israels destruction in the name of Islam, the group that Israel intends to remove from power through their invasion.. Hamas is the entire justification for the invasion. You cannot possibly discuss the motives of Israels invasion, and whether it's justified, without mentioning Hamas. It's like... trying to discuss the war in Ukraine without mentioning the Russian government / military. I've made this point in the last post, and you just deleted it from your response and repeated yourself..

But let's think... why do you not want to mention Hamas? Well it's probably because they're a fundamentalist Islamic organization, and they have stated plainly the reasons for the attacks are Jihad, Allah, and complete occupation of the holy land / dissolution of the state of Israel... so that pretty much destroys your argument that the war has nothing to do with Islam, doesn't it? So I can see why you'd avoid this topic, but in so doing you've rendered your argument meaningless as it sidesteps the critical issue, and you've shown that you will do and say anything to "win the argument" (but you can't win if you don't address the critical issue...). Consequently there's probably not much progress left to be made in this conversation...

Again, I have just shown you proof that Islam is the official religion of the PLO and yet you ignored it and repeated this falsehood.
You're in a mental situation where the facts tell you nothing... for you, facts are something to be interpreted or possibly ignored in service of your beliefs. It's obvious you will never change your mind... So... good for you? Go have your opinion, it's not changing mine, and it's obviously not an opinion shared by those making foreign policy decisions, so it's really inconsequential what you believe...

Again, the problem here is you actually read into the intent of the negotiating parties. There are two versions of history for all these historical events, the Israeli version and the PLO / Hamas version. Unless you can actually prove your version is correct... i.e. provide some evidence in this thread... you can make these claims all day but they're meaningless. And proof is not "here's a journal article with a journalist saying something". Some of your claim is going to be very difficult to prove. You don't need to merely prove the event occurred, you need to show the intent. Proving intent is always very difficult, but it's even harder when you have two clashing governments involved with the power to spin narratives in a way that suites them. There's so much information that will need to be verified and examined to show intent... I suspect you'd probably need a tribunal to sort it all out.
BTW - you say Hamas agreed to a two state solution. Well former Hamas members (such as the son of the founder of Hamas in the interview I posted in this thread earlier) have explained at length that Hamas uses the prospect of negotiation for leverage and as a delaying tactic, but does not intend to reach a two state solution as this goes against their founding ideals (which they establish in their charter and which you can see in their public statements they make to this day). So I'm very skeptical of this claim here, but you are free to try to prove Hamas's intent ... good luck with that one. Until you can manage it though this claim may as well be empty propagandizing for all anyone knows.

I'll use an analogy to make my point that "radical Islam" isn't the focal point of this conflict.

When the Soviet Union was attacked by Nazi Germany, one could have argued that the Soviets were fighting for the cause of universal socialism. And people did argue that. Communists and fascists were sworn enemies, after all, the Soviet Union was the product of a communist revolution that established a socialist state, and many Soviet officers would have drawn deep inspiration from the writings and quotations of Karl Marx and Lenin.

Did these officers really fight on behalf of Marxist abstractions like 'class struggle' and against the forces of counterrevolution? Partially — ideology has the ability to channel perception into narrow furrows, and that's not exactly a novel observation. But did they really risk their lives over the minutiae of Marxist doctrine, or were they simply fighting to preserve their country out of some visceral patriotic instinct? Without completely rejecting the former, it's safe to say that the truth is closer to the latter.

I would put forward the same claim vis a vis Hamas: That they are also patriots, that their primary motivation is to defend their country, and that Hamas' aggressive outlook comes from its nature as a military organization.

[xerx]

"And already have we written in the Book [of David], after the exhortation, that my righteous servants shall inherit the land."
Does that statement seem metaphysical to you?

How about this one-
"And kill them (non-Muslims) wherever you find them ... kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers (non-Muslims)."

Religion is not simply metaphysical.

Your statement here again shows how astoundingly ignorant you are about religion. Religion is primarily about morality, it provides a comprehensive moral framework, and this in turn has social / political implications. Have you ever read the bible or the Qu'ran? To believe in a religion is to adopt its moral framework. All the major abrahamic religions believe in the same God, they have the same metaphysics, what do you think distinguishes them...? What do you think Jesus was saying: "God exists because before the big bang there had to have been something, so...". No, he was making moral claims and statements, that is practically all he does... that's practically all the bible is about. Same with Muhammed. With the added detail he was an insane murderous megalomaniac ...
Go educate yourself before you speak on these topics, you are astoundingly ignorant.

You seem to take for granted your ideals, as if your ideals are objective and universal ... they follow directly from perception, and so have nothing to do with your own personal values / beliefs. Ideals don't work that way, they are not perceived in the objective world, they're expressions of deeply held values and emotional attitudes. Probably you inherited most your ideals from the culture, and you never really developed a strong foundation within yourself, so you just take them for granted... that would be my guess. Many cultural ideals you take for granted largely originated from the cultures founding religion, which if you're from the West that's Christianity. I know you probably don't like this, but it's quite easy to prove actually.


I think that economic prosperity does have some reductive effect on the religiosity of the population, but it takes centuries for a population to largely abandon their religion, assuming it ever happens... the US is probably the most decadent culture in the world and it has not even abandoned its religion yet... especially a strongly religious population such as Palestine which is 99% Muslim. It's something that could be worked toward, but it's not going to happen quickly. Meanwhile you still are stuck contending with these religious dogmas, which do not yield to reason and which mandate that the Muslims occupy holy Jerusalem. I've proposed in this thread a plan of installing a police state, building up an economy, dousing the population with propaganda, and over time hopefully reducing their Islamic fundamentalism... but at the very least, before any of that could be thought about, Hamas would have to be removed from power. Becuase Hamas is not going to change its mind, I'm sorry but go watch the videos of Hamas training 9 year olds to kill Jews, go read the Qu'ran, go read Hamas's statements - when people are that fundamentalist in their religious views they will hold onto them until death, a little economic development is not going to change the mind of such a person. For example, it is often the case that even plain facts will not change a persons mind (i.e. you're still insisting the PLO is a strictly secular organization). And it should be noted that the Qu'ran very explicitly calls for all of these things - Jihad, occupation of the holy land, etc.. Islam would need to be abandoned in the minds of Hamas for them to change their stance toward Israel.
But once Hamas is removed from power this is something that should be thought about.

Let me throw that back at you.

If we can use selectively-interpreted Koranic quotes to make sweeping generalizations about Muslims, we can apply the same hamfisted and erroneous logic to Jews. God/Yahweh orders the Hebrews to commit genocide against the Canaanites — does he not? And in an uncanny and disturbing similarity to modern Israeli expansionist militarism, the bronze-age Israelites take pride in making war and capturing the lands of their enemies.

If violence is the downstream product of top-down religious belief, and if ideology has more power to shape our thoughts than we have the power to shape ideology, it seems like Judaism would also fit the bill of a genocidal religion.

[xerx]

I suppose it's for the benefit of impressionable or ignorant bystanders. And maybe through the process I deepen my understanding of various issues. Years of internet debate with zealots like this have left me with no illusion that they're liable to change their minds.

Look dude, I just want the war to end and for everyone to get a fair deal.

[xerx]

I don't know why you try @DogOfDanger they seem to like talking out of their ass.

My pronouns are he/him.

[chriscorey]

My pronouns are he/him.

I want to see some evidence. I don't just believe things on a whim.

Until you provide it, you're they/them. I don't want to get canceled.

[mu4]

Look dude, I just want the war to end and for everyone to get a fair deal.

This is a incredibly optimistic view into this, I think what many actors(including Israel) in the region wants right now is a slow escalation into a regional war that brings in Hezbollah and Iran.

The end game is either the Palestinians get a state, or Israel manages to successfully displace and ethnically cleanse the Palestinians in Gaza. I don't think this really ends without one of the 2 happening.

And I only believe that the Palestinian gets a state if somehow Netanyahu and the far right loses this gambit to completely displace Gaza, it may not happen in this specific conflict but the 2 sides are pushing in the chips to slowly escalate this until one of these 2 end games happen.

Israel knows the Americans will not be willing to enter a regional war with Iran in the future, and they want to push this into a reality before it stops being a possibility. Having lost multiple wars and proxy wars in the Middle East(Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen), it is incredibly unlikely for Israel to have another opportunity like this in the future, where they have relative carte blanche to commit this atrocity.

Hamas also wants this fight, because it wants to ensure that the Saudis do not normalize relations with Israel and will not be able to do so in the future. They also think the Palestinian can survive this conflict and wear them out and as long as they do not get displaced, they win but the cost will be staggering as it already is.

I think the real winners of this war will be Iran and Hezbollah, as much as the moral cause of Palestinians might get activists engaged, it is Iran and Hezbollah that have the military capacity to truly break the IDF. Hezbollah basically defeated Israel the last time they had a clash, and they've been waiting for this fight.

From a objectives standpoint this has been such a shit show, if the Israeli's had given the Palestinians a state as they promised in the 90s, this would not be happening. Israeli far right killed Rabin and are now in charge bringing about the war they want. Alternatively, a weak PLO run state would have existed and there would have been many more options on the table. Now they get to ruin a generation of Israeli citizens by putting them in a war that will destroy them when they get home even if they do not die in battle and change their country into a global pariah.

5% of the Israeli population has already left Israel and I see this number going up as the conflict widens.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

felt like yapping about how im frustrated or not sure if ppl dont know how satanic this is, also in the sense that its literally organized by satanists and you do have enough evidence of satanic ritual abuse survivors and conspiracies to zero in on that. interests, pointless to think about if you dont factor in the bigger picture.

[mu4]

...change their country into a global pariah.

I wrote this right before the ICJ announcement and now the ICJ has voted 15 vs 2 for provisional measure to Israel to stop it's killing of Palestinians, and 16-1 to allow humanitarian aid in. Only 1 person(Uganda) voted against all measures and likely was bribed or coerced.

So both the Israeli judge and US judged voted for some measures.

This is a binding decisions without appeal, so any state that helps Israel after this is helping Israel potentially commit genocide and also binds them into this same agreement. This is a off ramp for many states that might need a excuse to stop aid to Israel, but I don't see the Israeli or the Americans stopping anything. However this ensures the future isolation of Israel and their evolution into a global pariah.

[chriscorey]

oh, more propaganda with no evidence. The UN funds Hamas. The IDF has been shipping aid to Gaza but Hamas steals it and doesn't help the people.

[FreelancePoliceman]

I wrote this right before the ICJ announcement and now the ICJ has voted 15 vs 2 for provisional measure to Israel to stop it's killing of Palestinians, and 16-1 to allow humanitarian aid in. Only 1 person(Uganda) voted against all measures and likely was bribed or coerced.

So both the Israeli judge and US judged voted for some measures.

This is a binding decisions without appeal, so any state that helps Israel after this is helping Israel potentially commit genocide and also binds them into this same agreement. This is a off ramp for many states that might need a excuse to stop aid to Israel, but I don't see the Israeli or the Americans stopping anything. However this ensures the future isolation of Israel and their evolution into a global pariah.

Can't wait for "Genocide Joe" to be a phrase backed by international law.

[mu4]

Can't wait for "Genocide Joe" to be a phrase backed by international law.

I think it's a mistake to fixate on any particular individual for this. This is the entire establishment and especially the lobbyist backed parts of the government, which is most of it. It will take a generational shift and a breaking down of the past 75 years of delusional mythmaking on the park of neo-con/lib expansionists and the fall of American hegemony. This will be trying times for the foreseeable future.

[I am a frog]

I think it's a mistake to fixate on any particular individual for this. This is the entire establishment and especially the lobbyist backed parts of the government, which is most of it. It will take a generational shift and a breaking down of the past 75 years of delusional mythmaking on the park of neo-con/lib expansionists and the fall of American hegemony. This will be trying times for the foreseeable future.

Yes, they even make you promise that you are not boycotting Israel when you apply for a state job in many US states. Every time the government votes on supporting Israel there is absolutely no one in the government that votes it against despite the American public itself being quite divided on the topic. You would have to put the entire US state apparatus under trial to achieve anything of significance.

[Muira]

Maybe it's better to say I'm too stupid to be good at history to avoid talking about stuff like this, and then be called a white-supremist or a Nazi by both sides.

Peace is underrated

[chriscorey]

[chriscorey]

The Jews were expelled from every Arab state and cannot go there or they'll be killed.

20% of Israel is Arab/Palestinian

[mu4]

Yes, they even make you promise that you are not boycotting Israel when you apply for a state job in many US states. Every time the government votes on supporting Israel there is absolutely no one in the government that votes it against despite the American public itself being quite divided on the topic. You would have to put the entire US state apparatus under trial to achieve anything of significance.

I'm not too concerned by this, unenforceable and pointless, and large institutions and states don't matter as to global capital as much as aggregate lost of demand. If China joins into BDS, global capital will respond. Chinese consumers are relatively unpoliticzed about Palestinian cause but the youth is increasingly becoming politicized as competition ramps between US and China. Unlike South Africa where US/Western boycotts created the economic pressure, it will be the growing Global South consumers that will drive global capital flight from Israel. What they really want to is clamp down on calls to boycott, but there's little means of stopping that since the best publicity is Israel itself. It's not like people don't also boycott Arab and other countries thru sanctions and other means. But for the US which is what I care about, it's not really about Israel or Arab countries, there's no more strategic reason to be embroiled in losing wars and costly battles in the Middle east. The neo-cons have proven losers in most of the recent conflicts since Vietnam, only killing a lot of civilians and spending a lot of taxpayer money.

Israel is mostly a neo-con outpost, and it exists because of that particular view. It's unsustainable as a neo-con outpost and would need to change it's orientation at some point. Within the US and the west, there is a shift in agenda from a neo-con perspective to a new isolationist perspective. Border controls, trade protectionism and defunding the military industrial complex is on the menu. The left and the right are shifting towards this new wave of isolationism.

From a socionics perspective this is a shift from Gamma expansion -> Delta isolationism, the expansion has ended in all but PR rhetoric and the token Nato(Sweden, Finland) (they were defacto Nato aligned anyways) expansion.

[mu4]

The Jews were expelled from every Arab state and cannot go there or they'll be killed.

20% of Israel is Arab/Palestinian

How does killing people, especially children in Gaza and West Bank change this? How do illegal settlements and illegal war crimes change this. The problems of Israel's illegal actions is fact and not opinion at this point, and this is not a Jew vs Arab thing, because a large segment of America Jews have turned against Israel, as well as multitudes of atheists/Buddhists/etc in other countries. And not against Jews based on religion or ethnicity but specifically against Israel for it's illegal conduct.

Even if Israel successfully commit ethnic cleansing and genocide against Palestinians, this changes very little the political alignment of Arab states towards Israel. After October 7th, a more measured response could have allowed the Abraham accords to succeed but now these are no longer political viable due to mass popular anger towards any such normalization. Israel is once again isolated in the Middle East.

Netanyahu and the far-right have once again proven themselves supporters of Hamas by creating a massive radicalization motivation in Gaza and turning Israel into a pariah state.

[chriscorey]

How does killing people, especially children in Gaza and West Bank change this? How do illegal settlements and illegal war crimes change this. The problems of Israel's illegal actions is fact and not opinion at this point, and this is not a Jew vs Arab thing, because a large segment of America Jews have turned against Israel, as well as multitudes of atheists/Buddhists/etc in other countries. And not against Jews based on religion or ethnicity but specifically against Israel for it's illegal conduct.

Even if Israel successfully commit ethnic cleansing and genocide against Palestinians, this changes very little the political alignment of Arab states towards Israel. After October 7th, a more measured response could have allowed the Abraham accords to succeed but now these are no longer political viable due to mass popular anger towards any such normalization. Israel is once again isolated in the Middle East.

Netanyahu and the far-right have once again proven themselves supporters of Hamas by creating a massive radicalization motivation in Gaza and turning Israel into a pariah state.

Hey, all I can do is look at the facts and try to figure out what's going on. I'm not allowed to just want peace for both people. For some reason.

I need to see evidence from both sides, but all I get is propaganda.

Why didn't the Jews do this?



And have you read the other posts in this thread?

Nice red herring.

I can see your left ideology and I can see their right ideology. I disagree with both of you.

[DogOfDanger]

How does killing people, especially children in Gaza and West Bank change this? How do illegal settlements and illegal war crimes change this. The problems of Israel's illegal actions is fact and not opinion at this point, and this is not a Jew vs Arab thing, because a large segment of America Jews have turned against Israel, as well as multitudes of atheists/Buddhists/etc in other countries. And not against Jews based on religion or ethnicity but specifically against Israel for it's illegal conduct.

Even if Israel successfully commit ethnic cleansing and genocide against Palestinians, this changes very little the political alignment of Arab states towards Israel. After October 7th, a more measured response could have allowed the Abraham accords to succeed but now these are no longer political viable due to mass popular anger towards any such normalization. Israel is once again isolated in the Middle East.

Netanyahu and the far-right have once again proven themselves supporters of Hamas by creating a massive radicalization motivation in Gaza and turning Israel into a pariah state.

- I have not yet seen evidence of Israel committing war crimes, or an international court concluding Israel has committed war crimes. If I'm wrong and you (or anyone) can prove they've committed war crimes feel free. And I mean the state of Israel, not just particular soldiers screwing up and shooting the wrong person.
- Israel's stated its intent is to purge Hamas, and that the death of civilians is not their real intent. I have not seen evidence of a widespread intentional targeting of specifically Palestinian civilians by Israel... the mere fact a given ethnicity is overwhelmingly killed in a war is not proof of ethnic cleansing, ethnic cleansing requires the intent to kill be based on ethnicity. Again if you can prove Israels intent or show some widespread deliberate effort to target specifically civilians feel free to do so, otherwise...

I can agree that strategically, if this war causes the Abraham accords to fall apart, the cost/benefit analysis may not favor Israels actions... maybe. It's not entirely clear, Hamas poses a true existential threat to Israel (due to the long term potential of nuclear weapons), more so than the other nations. For example... most of the underlying factors leading to those accords have not really changed, it's possible the initiative could be revived down the line. But strategic benefit doesn't really tell us whether Israel's actions are morally justified, anyway.
You could take the position that war is never morally justified... but for this we ultimately defer to international law, there's an entire body of laws surrounding when a nation may declare war and how war may be conducted.... Israels war declaration was compliant with those laws.
So again, the discussion here just comes back to this claim of yours that Israel has committed war crimes - where is the evidence?

[DogOfDanger]

Let me throw that back at you.

If we can use selectively-interpreted Koranic quotes to make sweeping generalizations about Muslims, we can apply the same hamfisted and erroneous logic to Jews. God/Yahweh orders the Hebrews to commit genocide against the Canaanites — does he not? And in an uncanny and disturbing similarity to modern Israeli expansionist militarism, the bronze-age Israelites take pride in making war and capturing the lands of their enemies.

If violence is the downstream product of top-down religious belief, and if ideology has more power to shape our thoughts than we have the power to shape ideology, it seems like Judaism would also fit the bill of a genocidal religion.

It's not a generalization about Muslims, once again we are talking about Hamas, the self-declared fundamentalist Islamic organization... and talking about the ideas in the Qu'ran, and what their implications are if believed. Muslims on the whole have varying degrees of interest in and adherence to Islam, some like those in Hamas take it very seriously to the point they'd actually attempt to carry out Jihad, while others probably just claim allegiance to it because of all the social pressure, or because it's a tradition in their culture, and so on.
The quotes from the Qu'ran are not selective, I posted a link to hundreds of similar murderous Qu'ran quotes earlier in this thread. And the Qu'ran is not even a very large book, it was based just on Muhammad's recitations... its message is basically coherent, this makes it very different than something like the bible that's 67 different books by different authors, and much larger... Spreading the faith via war and conquest is the central message of the Qu'ran, Islam is a firm rejection of what it considers false peace, aiming to reinstate the natural divine law... including in its most brutal aspects, that is called Sharia law. For example this is the justification used for executing gays in fundamentalist Islamic cultures such as Iran.
Sharia - Wikipedia

It's an interesting point about Judaism - traditional Judaism also idealizes the natural divine law, and in places is also very brutal... To some degree Christian and secular culture was able to constrain and normalize Judaism in practice. Judaism was really a religion exclusively for the Jewish people, it wasn't intended to be spread to non-Jews... it didn't aim to establish itself in secular cultures governments. Also their calls for conquest are specific commands by God to conquer a specific people at a specific time, they're not broad mandates for conquest that formed dogmas persisting in the minds of Jews to this day. Secular culture is able to easily restrain Judaism, within a secular culture there's just no legal room for Jews to execute people that violate some natural law, and it seems that in practice that just doesn't happen. This is much different than Islam which is an active reinstatement of the natural law / rejection of Christian / secular values, and calls for spreading the religion to the entire world, by force if necessary, and intending to displace secular governments to establish itself as the form of government. And in fundamentalist Islamic nations such as Iran... Islam dominates the government, and their laws follow from that. But there are also modern Arab nations that have been more influenced by secular culture and which don't adhere strictly to Sharia, like the UAE - but balancing public policy with the tenants of Islam is a difficult balancing act for the leaders of those nations.

So basically Judaism just doesn't have the same mandates to spread itself and overtake the government that Islam does... it hasn't spread much beyond Israel, and where it does exist it's restrained by secularism much more easily. Islam can be restrained, though this is a difficult thing to do - but with Hamas that's not what we're dealing with, Hamas is a government that does firmly cling to the fundamental tenants of Islam.
For example, the Israeli government does not practice stoning... though I'm pretty sure their traditions call for stoning for gathering sticks on Sunday (though I'm not an expert on Judaism). But Iran does practice Sharia.

The Jewish mentality of conquest you're suggesting exists is an extrapolation, it's not a direct reading of their text and a dogma derived from that. Pretty much any nation has some arrogance and national pride that can be tapped into and turned toward conquest... I don't think you need to derive that from the religious texts, all you need is national or cultural identity. Tribalism is pretty universal... but as bad as tribalism is, compared with dogmatism at least it can be negotiated with and is relatively malleable. With Hamas we're dealing with actual religious dogmas - the Qu'ran states the holy land is to be occupied by Muslims, therefor something like a two state solution is simply not on the table - in the mind of a true believer, which is how Hamas behaves and what they claim to be.

Carry onward!

[DogOfDanger]

I'll use an analogy to make my point that "radical Islam" isn't the focal point of this conflict.

When the Soviet Union was attacked by Nazi Germany, one could have argued that the Soviets were fighting for the cause of universal socialism. And people did argue that. Communists and fascists were sworn enemies, after all, the Soviet Union was the product of a communist revolution that established a socialist state, and many Soviet officers would have drawn deep inspiration from the writings and quotations of Karl Marx and Lenin.

Did these officers really fight on behalf of Marxist abstractions like 'class struggle' and against the forces of counterrevolution? Partially — ideology has the ability to channel perception into narrow furrows, and that's not exactly a novel observation. But did they really risk their lives over the minutiae of Marxist doctrine, or were they simply fighting to preserve their country out of some visceral patriotic instinct? Without completely rejecting the former, it's safe to say that the truth is closer to the latter.

I would put forward the same claim vis a vis Hamas: That they are also patriots, that their primary motivation is to defend their country, and that Hamas' aggressive outlook comes from its nature as a military organization.

The problem with this analogy is that religion matters far more to its believers than something like communism vs socialism. For example, I've never heard of a person strapping a bomb to their chest and blowing themselves up while screaming some pro-socialism slogan... religion deals with the nature of and explanation of existence, the afterlife... it permeates the very depths of a persons mind. Communism... does not effect a person on the same level.

Once again the core problem seems to be you just not understanding religion...

And again we're not really talking about the common Muslim here, Hamas is a fairly small group of fundamentalist radicals that just happens to occupy power at this time. Radical organizations self-select for radicalism, radicalism becomes a gateway of entry ... I think Hamas is made up of Islamic fundamentalist radicals in the same way that black lives matter is made up of largely antisocial thugs and people that basically hate whites. Though I do also think the Palestinians have been very manipulated and led astray by many surrounding Arab groups with alternate political motives, Iran being a prime example. So I think there's alot of misguided idealism that still to this day permeates the Palestinian population... and Islam is a very significant part of that. But once again, I'm optimistic that the Palestinian mindset could be... changed over time, i.e. the discussion earlier about installing a police state, but again removing Hamas from power is a prerequisite for that.
I really just can't picture a scenario where Hamas gives up on the tenants of radical Islam, or where the Palestinians are able to shrug off these misguided ideals while dominated by Hamas.

[chriscorey]

the Hamas charter calls for the murder of every Jew on earth.

[chriscorey]

there are wars on earth RIGHT now that deserve your attention. But if Jews go to war, well, they have money so it's obviously them. You are a bigot. A racist. A baby killer.

end the war.

[chriscorey]

Can't wait for "Genocide Joe" to be a phrase backed by international law.

this is genocide.



the IEI FP THEY HAD FEELINGS. FEELINGS THE JEWS should be killed.

[chriscorey]