EII self esteem

[Warmpolar]

How has self esteem impacted your overall activity in life?
Do you think they share a large correlation?

I wrote this primary for the EII, but please don't hesitate to chime in.

I'm currently sinking my teeth into Augusta's works and stumbled upon her readings that are surface level translated. In her write up about EIIs, she points out that the lower evaluation of character within us typically degrades our volitional abilities. She argued our negative perspective weakens our ability to gauge to view appropriate potential outcomes. That additude leads to a need for external validation. Later, she describes what she believes to be a emotionally mature person: somebody who objectively perceives themselves and makes adjustments through their own perception versus the need for external validation. If emotional maturity revolves around objective perception then is self esteem largely a perceptual issue? Is this congruent to how you grew as a person? do you agree with the idea?

[Muira]

How has self esteem impacted your overall activity in life?
Do you think they share a large correlation?

I wrote this primary for the EII, but please don't hesitate to chime in.

I'm currently sinking my teeth into Augusta's works and stumbled upon her readings that are surface level translated. In her write up about EIIs, she points out that the lower evaluation of character within us typically degrades our volitional abilities. She argued our negative perspective weakens our ability to gauge to view appropriate potential outcomes. That additude leads to a need for external validation. Later, she describes what she believes to be a emotionally mature person: somebody who objectively perceives themselves and makes adjustments through their own perception versus the need for external validation. If emotional maturity revolves around objective perception then is self esteem largely a perceptual issue? Is this congruent to how you grew as a person? do you agree with the idea?

when you feel like shit and continue to patronize yourself, you also tend to neglect your needs, etc. Which in turn often makes you wither in mental and physical health, which will make shit worse.

You won't believe in yourself, and then you'd never try anything new, take risks, etc.

That's why we need to have a neutral ego, and have some sense of hope.

Either way, people don't stay in one state unless they refuse to change their mindset, thus will never evolve past self-deprecating when they could change for the better and make amends, take more risks for better benefits, be present minded, etc.

Some people may not have the same style as me, just jumping into things without a care, knowing I can improve till I get the right results, giving my 100%. And that's good, everyone needs to find out what works for them.

[pasleine]

i used to have very very low self esteem. occasionally i'll have a bad interaction with someone and i'll start believing that my perception of the world is "wrong" and i'll be totally offset emotionally for like, months.
these days, i try to look at myself in accordance to my surroundings, if the tension between the two isn't too much, then i'm ok.
but yes, i do struggle with volition.
i can't really make goals for myself, or admit that i did or did not succeed. those metrics get stuck in my head, causing a lot of mixed feelings.

[Muira]

i used to have very very low self esteem. occasionally i'll have a bad interaction with someone and i'll start believing that my perception of the world is "wrong" and i'll be totally offset emotionally for like, months.
these days, i try to look at myself in accordance to my surroundings, if the tension between the two isn't too much, then i'm ok.
but yes, i do struggle with volition.
i can't really make goals for myself, or admit that i did or did not succeed. those metrics get stuck in my head, causing a lot of mixed feelings.

Well hey, you don't have to care about what others are doing, just make small goals that help to lead to a bigger goal. Also remember that purpose is more of a journey than a destination, do what you like. Be it being a philanthropist, learning the piano, getting a promotion, etc. Also don't be afraid to ask for guidance (from people who are creditable).

First, if you can't fit a motive, find a passion.

[Warmpolar]

I'm gonna word spaghetti my thoughts real quick.
Gulenko recommends rushing through things since we typically are detail oriented, there by in my opinion, reducing Ne use and employing Id use to navigate. I think this works when instant results are needed, such as in intensive work environments or learning something you needed to know yesterday, since I can personally attest to higher performance when engaged in this fashion. Nevertheless, I don't believe this handles the source issue at hand, that being accurate self assessment and management of daily activities.
When it comes to perception, the superego's perception cannot be ignored. Some socionists believe that we ourselves are our superego, and that we are actually our role function, and our PoLR dictates our direction. If true, it makes complete sense that our duals cause so much transformation to our character, but leaves us dry to better perceive ourselves. Two things then need to be established then for superego growth, cutting though the role all absorption and narrowing it down, and laying a single direction to the PoLR.
For a psychoanalytical perspective, meta cognition and feedback mechanisms are the single handed best approaches cognitively to improve self esteem and character. Meta cognition involves monitoring your thoughts themselves and questioning them and viewing them from several angles. This creates a self regulating system to better navigate your thoughts process. I can attest to past experience, this has kept me out of full blown psychosis a handful of times. Feedback also helps dictate accuracy where we stand. The task is simple: understand your goals and listen to anything that gives you accurate metrics to that goal, and ignore anything else such as "advice" that attempts to hijack your goal with what they think you should do. The thing is, sometimes our self esteem is low because we've genuinely earned it. Feedback puts us in a position to see that, and to change course.

[Muira]

I'm gonna word spaghetti my thoughts real quick.
Gulenko recommends rushing through things since we typically are detail oriented, there by in my opinion, reducing Ne use and employing Id use to navigate. I think this works when instant results are needed, such as in intensive work environments or learning something you needed to know yesterday, since I can personally attest to higher performance when engaged in this fashion. Nevertheless, I don't believe this handles the source issue at hand, that being accurate self assessment and management of daily activities.
When it comes to perception, the superego's perception cannot be ignored. Some socionists believe that we ourselves are our superego, and that we are actually our role function, and our PoLR dictates our direction. If true, it makes complete sense that our duals cause so much transformation to our character, but leaves us dry to better perceive ourselves. Two things then need to be established then for superego growth, cutting though the role all absorption and narrowing it down, and laying a single direction to the PoLR.

Yeah, but maybe consider grass, ngl socionics is still something that isn't considered real psychology, but rather a proto-science. Though the concept of communication styles clashing with other things, etc, all are somewhat if not completely true. The best way to get better at something is to actually practice using that 'function' for long periods of time and showing yourself that you need that function for survival.

For a psychoanalytical perspective, meta cognition and feedback mechanisms are the single handed best approaches cognitively to improve self esteem and character. Meta cognition involves monitoring your thoughts themselves and questioning them and viewing them from several angles. This creates a self regulating system to better navigate your thoughts process. I can attest to past experience, this has kept me out of full blown psychosis a handful of times. Feedback also helps dictate accuracy where we stand. The task is simple: understand your goals and listen to anything that gives you accurate metrics to that goal, and ignore anything else such as "advice" that attempts to hijack your goal with what they think you should do. The thing is, sometimes our self esteem is low because we've genuinely earned it. Feedback puts us in a position to see that, and to change course.

Yes, but you still can very much learn other things on your own. Accepting things as they are allows you to see reality, then make real progress on your own.

Best way to have a good ego: Don't think about it, don't even really think about your image.

You may be pissy now, but you can be awesome later.

I recommend you don't reflect too much, and I should reflect more, but I'm too stubborn, and you doubt yourself too much.

I'd like to know more about your ego-issues so I can recommend some stuff that I think may help.

[Warmpolar]

Yeah, but maybe consider grass, ngl socionics is still something that isn't considered real psychology, but rather a proto-science. Though the concept of communication styles clashing with other things, etc, all are somewhat if not completely true. The best way to get better at something is to actually practice using that 'function' for long periods of time and showing yourself that you need that function for survival.




Yes, but you still can very much learn other things on your own. Accepting things as they are allows you to see reality, then make real progress on your own.

Best way to have a good ego: Don't think about it, don't even really think about your image.

You may be pissy now, but you can be awesome later.

I recommend you don't reflect too much, and I should reflect more, but I'm too stubborn, and you doubt yourself too much.

I'd like to know more about your ego-issues so I can recommend some stuff that I think may help.

Yeah, but to touch grass you have to go outside and outside has uv rays, have you even played fallout? Stay outside and we'll turn into a gigantic tumor! where's my sunscreen!?
To be honest, even posting online is terrifying to me, the fact that I'm inputting data into some "everlasting" system leaves me petrified. The fact that I'm starting to makes me feel accomplished like I've taken a large step forward. But the main reason for posting the question is because I've found improvement in my life increasing my self image, it doesn't mean though that I've improved the self doubtful nature. Maybe I'm too doubtful of myself, the line is so hard to find, I mean, I spent a year with my nose in socionics day in and out and just barely feel comfortable talking about it.
I've still got a long way to go. Thanks to Rusted's enneagram content recently I realized I'm definitely type 9, numbing out my anger. Now I've been working hard at establishing a better connection to myself and my immediate emotions boiling under the surface, trying to find suitable applications for each one.
But my more than likely excessive self doubting partly comes from the fact I've dealt with consistent manic episodes most of my life. There's times when my manic induced paranoia turns me as much as I hate to say it, a risk to those I love. I doubt the voice in my head because I never want to lay a finger unnecessarily on them. The road is bad either way, no meds, aggressive, light neurodegeneration, meds, massive neurodegeneration and complications. Not to say I've had tremendous issues in the past hurting anybody, thankfully in my case I usually become catatonic when the goings gets rough.
I've also done development on my Se PoLR. Completely confident I have. It took some time to learn to turn it on, but my goodness it's made life much easier, the cool part being after working on it my supervisor has gotten much nicer to me since. I read into situations better, push people to do things in a not so try hard manner, exert proper volition for things to get done, clean up my appearance and distinguish better what looks better, and notice when things are moved better than I used to (though that may be a bit of Te too). Confrontation is still extremely uncomfortable and I'm having a hard time supervising my coworker as much as my LSE boss wants.
Let me ask, to what end are you considering building your PoLR? I know it may seem strange, but a PoLR is also someone's strength. Weak Se usually makes someone unbelievably stubborn, and Fi PoLR means you won't let your friendship interrupt your sense of justice. I think that development to the point where it's not a massive drag is the end goal, but people need you for you. Your strengths.

[Warmpolar]

i can't really make goals for myself, or admit that i did or did not succeed. those metrics get stuck in my head, causing a lot of mixed feelings.

Not even setting goals for yourself? I'm gonna have to hulk taco a few milliliters of my self esteem!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I prefer the advice from Sister Unity, my EIE mirror. People often say 'just have self-confidence' flippantly, like it's so easy to do, when often what they really mean is 'let me abuse u and get away with it, and nobody can hold me accountable because I have self-esteem, and ur just a loser'

It doesn't mean self-confidence and self-esteem aren't very good things to have. But how do u really get them? By treating yourself well, by not talking to yourself cruelly. By making sure ur eating the right foods, getting enough exercise, and sleeping the right amount of hours every night. If you treat yourself well and do it consistently- things like self-esteem and self-confidence will come naturally. It's just a matter of fine tuning things.

Change the voices in your head. Make them like you instead lolol: ((Yes, I was often like the shy introverted artist girl in the video. Pink loves her dual/semi dual <3))

[godslave]

Let me ask, to what end are you considering building your PoLR? I know it may seem strange, but a PoLR is also someone's strength. Weak Se usually makes someone unbelievably stubborn, and Fi PoLR means you won't let your friendship interrupt your sense of justice. I think that development to the point where it's not a massive drag is the end goal, but people need you for you. Your strengths.

The PolR function is something you don't think about unless it is present in your environment. The polr function puts your Ego functions (esp the creative) in "freeze mode" if and only if the situation is totally new and has not been either worked around with your strong functions or covered by another individual ideally your the dual. These are the mechanisms by witch a TIM acquires an "immunization" or experience (1D functions) against specific situations. No more no less.

If you feel like your PolR function is static and has never evolved in any way shape of form then you might have a mental health issue (anything that might isolate you from society, from social anxiety to more serious pathologies ) and chances are that you already are aware of it and hopefully have some kind of treatment.

TIMs/sociotypes are just templates, if you take them in isolation you might have the impression that they are static charts, in fact that's exactly what they are. However socionics is also a "dynamic" sociological system, it's about the flow of information both within the TIM (metabolism) and without (ITR). All the TIMs in the system are a priori perfectly healthy but at the same time "soulless" because of course they are just, again, charts "types of information metabolism" not individuals with their own biographies. Over identifying with a chart is not healthy and pure types do not exist.

[godslave]

Change the voices in your head. Make them like you instead lolol: ((Yes, I was often like the shy introverted artist girl in the video. Pink loves her dual/semi dual <3))

Thank you for sharing ! That song brought tears in my eyes but the video almost made me pass out (the blood !!) ! Incidentally It's the second Pink song I've listen to beside another one that I catched on tv the other day (I think it was an uplifting song that is currently well ranked in the charts but I forgot its title). She looks just like one of my sisters !

PS : I found the song !

[Warmpolar]

The PolR function is something you don't think about unless it is present in your environment. The polr function puts your Ego functions (esp the creative) in "freeze mode" if and only if the situation is totally new and has not been either worked around with your strong functions or covered by another individual ideally your the dual. These are the mechanisms by witch a TIM acquires an "immunization" or experience (1D functions) against specific situations. No more no less.

If you feel like your PolR function is static and has never evolved in any way shape of form then you might have a mental health issue (anything that might isolate you from society, from social anxiety to more serious pathologies ) and chances are that you already are aware of it and hopefully have some kind of treatment.

TIMs/sociotypes are just templates, if you take them in isolation you might have the impression that they are static charts, in fact that's exactly what they are. However socionics is also a "dynamic" sociological system, it's about the flow of information both within the TIM (metabolism) and without (ITR). All the TIMs in the system are a priori perfectly healthy but at the same time "soulless" because of course they are just, again, charts "types of information metabolism" not individuals with their own biographies. Over identifying with a chart is not healthy and pure types do not exist.

I agree. In fact, probably a month or so ago, I noticed a situation where no other functions were applicable but my PolR. it really helped me to understand the need for my PolR to have strength, and that it's development would impact the way my base function made judgments, what else could it go off of if the creative is frozen? my point wasn't to understate the importance of developing it, but much rather the fact individuals tend to focus so much on their weaknesses. there are quite a few people who don't "use" their ego block, but keep making efforts to conform to social norms with their super ego.


Well Se is static, I'd be more concerned if it wasn't.
on a more serious note, have you seen a static PolR before? I understand theoretically, do you mean the refusal to accept any and all information regarding the element? I think anybody is prone to that so in as long as their teachability index is very low.


yeah, at the end of the day, socionics is very dehumanized. there was a research paper done a few years back on socionics, and one of the things the researchers emphasized was the availability of information in our environment largely dictated growth. they elaborated even base functions could lack development altogether if little is given for it to work with. its just a system that explains the base level cognition.

[Warmpolar]

I prefer the advice from Sister Unity, my EIE mirror. People often say 'just have self-confidence' flippantly, like it's so easy to do, when often what they really mean is 'let me abuse u and get away with it, and nobody can hold me accountable because I have self-esteem, and ur just a loser'

It doesn't mean self-confidence and self-esteem aren't very good things to have. But how do u really get them? By treating yourself well, by not talking to yourself cruelly. By making sure ur eating the right foods, getting enough exercise, and sleeping the right amount of hours every night. If you treat yourself well and do it consistently- things like self-esteem and self-confidence will come naturally. It's just a matter of fine tuning things.

Change the voices in your head. Make them like you instead lolol: ((Yes, I was often like the shy introverted artist girl in the video. Pink loves her dual/semi dual <3))

Thank you much. So, from what I'm currently understanding, the source of the problem is a self-defeating circle. They have high expectations for themselves but set the bar so high they can't reach it, beat themselves up about it, then lower their bar, self-esteem, and quality of life, rinse and repeat. So self-esteem is as basic for anyone else then, set reasonable expectations, fight the small dragons in your life, build up your value on small successes to big ones.

Or in other words, clean your room, hold your head high, lobsters, belly of the whale, or something like that.

speaking on the video, as much as the blood makes me a bit squeamish, I think it really gives weight the message deserves.

[godslave]

Well Se is static, I'd be more concerned if it wasn't.
on a more serious note, have you seen a static PolR before? I understand theoretically, do you mean the refusal to accept any and all information regarding the element? I think anybody is prone to that so in as long as their teachability index is very low.

Well, "static" like I said in the sense that you might not feel like you have done any progress in the domain of the PolR function. It's an impression and it ties well with the thread, self-esteem. It's nearly impossible in practice to not been able to process any information about the PolR because we all receive a parental/caregiver education and we all go to school and thus learn about a large spectrum of knowledge including in the domain of our Polr function.

However, like I said, the Polr is a consistent and recurrent problem in our life each time we find ourselves in a new situations because we are "programmed" to focus on our Ego and strong functions and not on our 1D functions. It's our main psychic modus operendi. We don't have the adequate libidinal resource to properly deal with the PolR information on our own. As a reminder those are psychic phenomena that we can't control, indeed our psychological type configuration is tributary to unconscious phenomena of compensation dynamics.

I don't think that we refuse to accept any information regarding the element, we just have to be in the right condition (secure). Think of the LII or EII who for whatever reason wants to learn martial arts, if (s)he finds the right teacher Ideally his or her dual then it's all good. It is said that succeeding in the domain of our PolR function gives us great satisfactions, it's high risks high rewards !

[Muira]

Yeah, but to touch grass you have to go outside and outside has uv rays, have you even played fallout? Stay outside and we'll turn into a gigantic tumor! where's my sunscreen!?
To be honest, even posting online is terrifying to me, the fact that I'm inputting data into some "everlasting" system leaves me petrified. The fact that I'm starting to makes me feel accomplished like I've taken a large step forward. But the main reason for posting the question is because I've found improvement in my life increasing my self image, it doesn't mean though that I've improved the self doubtful nature. Maybe I'm too doubtful of myself, the line is so hard to find, I mean, I spent a year with my nose in socionics day in and out and just barely feel comfortable talking about it.
I've still got a long way to go. Thanks to Rusted's enneagram content recently I realized I'm definitely type 9, numbing out my anger. Now I've been working hard at establishing a better connection to myself and my immediate emotions boiling under the surface, trying to find suitable applications for each one.

We live every day, make all types of risks, to be so concerned about every risk wouldn't allow us to live life. I say only take small risks for now. But of course wear sunscreen, no one wants to look old and wrinkly after all. Just take a moment to breathe, and think about the here and now and not the future, if you can't focus on being productive or being alive in the present moment, then how can you even be successful later on?
It's all about weighing the pros and cons, seeing what is necessary and what can give us big gains. Volition doesn't have to be purely evil, it can be even used for the right things.


Well, the self-doubt and crap seems like an anxiety issue, perhaps Self-Preservation Six? (perhaps a fix)

Self-Preservation Sixes are the softest Six subtype. In contrast to the Social Six, they do not need as many rules to follow and they can relax a bit more. They are not as strict with the idea of good and bad and they can comfortably navigate the scale of grays that separate white from black. Sometimes, they can be like teddy bears and can be quite emotional.
They are very reliable people who are often nice to be around. This being said, they lack a bit of impulse in life to be able to demonstrate the potential that they have. Because of this, they lack a kind of direction and this leads them to go around in circles more than they need to.
They have a tendency to look for protection in others, and authority is very important to them. Because of this, they tend to find it, and if they trust it, they feel like they can relax under its umbrella. Therefore, in contrast to a Sexual Six, it is harder for them to openly distrust and call out people above them and even those at their level. With all of these qualities, they are the kings and queens of alliances. From these bonds, they feel that the other respects them and they will not be attacked by people in their close environment. This making of alliances could seem unproblematic; however, the problem is the excess of alliances, and more than anything, the reason why they look for them: under the surface, they do not trust the other.
With all of this being said, this Six pays a lot of attention to their bonds and they seek to be able to reference the people who can protect them at the right moment. Due to their tactic of self-castration, they can look like Nines in their meekness. They sometimes remain a little infantilized, and due to this, too attached to control.

Either way, I hope you get more confidence, start working out more, look into martial arts, train your body and mind to be more resilient.

But my more than likely excessive self doubting partly comes from the fact I've dealt with consistent manic episodes most of my life. There's times when my manic induced paranoia turns me as much as I hate to say it, a risk to those I love. I doubt the voice in my head because I never want to lay a finger unnecessarily on them. The road is bad either way, no meds, aggressive, light neurodegeneration, meds, massive neurodegeneration and complications. Not to say I've had tremendous issues in the past hurting anybody, thankfully in my case I usually become catatonic when the goings gets rough.

Don't doubt yourself, at the very least, maybe even fake it till you make it. After all, it's hard to tell if confidence is real or fake for the vast majority of people. Dam, I hope the best for you, but you aren't pathetic, just you really need someone to believe in you, and at least you are trying to be stronger as a person. You have integrity from I see, just direct that stubbornness to your ego and self-worth.

I've also done development on my Se PoLR. Completely confident I have. It took some time to learn to turn it on, but my goodness it's made life much easier, the cool part being after working on it my supervisor has gotten much nicer to me since. I read into situations better, push people to do things in a not so try hard manner, exert proper volition for things to get done, clean up my appearance and distinguish better what looks better, and notice when things are moved better than I used to (though that may be a bit of Te too). Confrontation is still extremely uncomfortable and I'm having a hard time supervising my coworker as much as my LSE boss wants.

I see, but the consequences of not using the right amount of pressure should scare you into pressuring them. I remember my ESI dad talking about how kindness is doing good while being capable of being a danger, while weakness is just acting good because you can't afford to set anyone off.


Either way, if you don't pressure people in the right moment, they could possibly try to benefit from you, etc. Kindness should only be given to those who don't exploit or try to get the better hand with you. Think along the lines, "They are a waste of time, I should be in a different team"-"If I don't pressure them into working, the rest and I will have to deal with their failure, I better push them."

Let me ask, to what end are you considering building your PoLR? I know it may seem strange, but a PoLR is also someone's strength. Weak Se usually makes someone unbelievably stubborn, and Fi PoLR means you won't let your friendship interrupt your sense of justice. I think that development to the point where it's not a massive drag is the end goal, but people need you for you. Your strengths.

I'll develop my Fi enough to not look like an autistic ape that just lost their shit jk, enough to get screwed over. But also having weak Fi allows for snakes to attack SLE's since they just presume loyalty, punish after action, don't thoroughly judge people's character unless it's obvious, etc.


It has helped to see more value in people, less cynical and guarded, more aware of obvious manipulation, but it's still a struggle somewhat, I look like an LSI now

[Warmpolar]

I'll catch up and read the posts in a bit, I prefer giving well thought out sentiments.

Let me clear something up, yes I doubt myself intensely, but I've turned it to my strength. I've climbed out of depression, built solid critical thinking, and maintain a clear head in even situations most around me buckled under. Yes, posting scares me, but personally I'm eager to take on the things that scare me. Failure will be my tool to succeed. I'd say I have a very solid self esteem.

The main reason for posting was to ask wether or not other people noticed a pattern of self esteem improving the ability of the EII, more than other personalities, or at the very least what personalities suffer and benefit the most and what they could do to rise above their low analysis of themselves.


I do appreciate the it though, it never hurts to have an interchange of encouragement. I'll also make sure to add emojis to my snarky statements. Type 6sp huh? I'll look some more into it, type 9sx hit home thus far.

[Sol]

I'm currently sinking my teeth into Augusta's works and stumbled upon her readings that are surface level translated.

There exists "officially" translated English book of Filatova. Useful to read Jung's book.
Augustinavichiute's texts are terrible (in initial language too), especially for beginning studing, contain much of doubtful or wrong.

From a type view.
Higher self-esteem relate to stronger functions - people are more assured thinking there and to act based on own opinions.
For mentioned "volitional abilities". On good level they relate to strong functions. To assign "volitional abilities" to Se only is among Augustinavichiute's strange ideas and mistakes. As "volitional abilities" are for any conscious activity and for any kind of info - needed to hold the attention, to follow decisions and evaluations.

From IR side.
Feeling a support or quality control in weak function arises your assurance in that region. Being near and communicating with good IR people arises positive self-evaluation and life perception. Some part of this effect is on being positively perceived by people in good IR.

From Jung type as an accentuation side.
When you have a part of mind in lesser conscious state - you tend to partly ignore in conscious decisions evaluations of weaker functions. This predisposes to inner opposing, then to neurotic symptoms. Which have higher general and irrational anxiety, feeling of lesser energy, feeling of lesser pleasuer from what you have and do -> lesser trust in own abbilities to get good result, lesser self-esteem.
Good IR in this situation help to pay more attention to weaker functions and so better integrate them in conscious activity. Also help (by coping) to develop skills of dealing with such info, hence to support usage of methods of weaker functions. This helps to reduce accentuation of Jung type, in case of close friendship with such people (for intensive informational income).

> That additude leads to a need for external validation.

More for weaker functions. In stronger you prefer to rely on own opinion, and when no - there exist good reasons (from the point of social norms).
For nonvalued weak functions may appear protective negativism. This may remind self-assurance but more of blindness. People may behave strangely, alike doubtful tatoos or plastic surgery by Ni types.

> If emotional maturity revolves around objective perception then is self esteem largely a perceptual issue?

A perception (evaluation) is based on external (objective) and internal (subjective) influence.
"self esteem" is assurance in own abbility to achieve some result. This depends on your experience of dealing with objective reality - what you know and what you see now. And also depends on how you subjectively process this info about objective reality.
"Maturity" (skills) would be how correct are your evaluations and how complex tasks you solve. Secondary how much you trust yourself there. This appears from external past conditions and inner work. Can be for any of info regions, including emotions.

With leading Fi people should trust to own abbility to establish conditions for pleasant emotional state for yourself, for other people near (including to be liked by them, not inspire negative emotions). They also value to care themselves about this, not ignore, not hope on others or "somehow", tend to help others in improving this. Leading function means the most of attention to this part of reality, and hence best developed skills for this human. In common: abbilities, skills, positive experience are noticably above average (among people who lived and were rised in similar conditions). Self-esteem in this region is good too.

To write about specifics of concrete types is better by people having that type or by who had close and long freindship with them to know them good. Just theory or surface data is not so interesting.
With types experience usage the problem of correct types comes. People mistake in own and other people types in significant %.
Other experiences problem is the degree of Jung type factor for concrete behavior. For example, some behavior and situations can be not common for a type, but common for concrete human with that type.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Yeah the cutting part of the video is controversial and I'm not too big a fan of, and it wouldn't evoke the ire of Te authorities if they just left it out. Probably unnecessarily edgy.

I also think it's a myth that people who cut themselves, are driven only by low self-esteem. The cutters I know also engage in behaviors like that because they do sadistic and anti-social things that they then feel guilty of. ((I'm not talking simply being occassionally bitchy or mean to ppl - but more criminal things)) They are so numb and hard-hearted and their manipulations and fake love only works so far, that they have to cut just to feel.

It's more complicated than them simply not liking themselves enough. They also hate others too much- but it is often related.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Thank you much. So, from what I'm currently understanding, the source of the problem is a self-defeating circle. They have high expectations for themselves but set the bar so high they can't reach it, beat themselves up about it, then lower their bar, self-esteem, and quality of life, rinse and repeat. So self-esteem is as basic for anyone else then, set reasonable expectations, fight the small dragons in your life, build up your value on small successes to big ones.

Or in other words, clean your room, hold your head high, lobsters, belly of the whale, or something like that.

speaking on the video, as much as the blood makes me a bit squeamish, I think it really gives weight the message deserves.

lol @ Jordan Peterson telling ppl to clean their room. That can help and I do tend to feel better if my personal space is tidy, but serial killers and shady ppl also often have clean houses to trick authorities that they aren't evil or cruel ppl when they are in fact exactly that way- so nope, I'm not going to fall for somebody's tricks just cus they have a clean house!!!

It's hard to have self esteem if ur a sensitive person and ur around a bunch of sadistic and hateful assholes. That's why ppl say 'before diagnosing yourself with a mental disorder make sure you're not in fact, around a bunch of assholes.' If I'm not treated well or I'm disrespected too much I just don't show up. I have to focus on myself before I can help/assist others. Some ppl say this is me being a coward but its more like, I'm not going to allow somebody to abuse me when I don't want to be abused.

[Muira]

lol @ Jordan Peterson telling ppl to clean their room. That can help and I do tend to feel better if my personal space is tidy, but serial killers and shady ppl also often have clean houses to trick authorities that they aren't evil or cruel ppl when they are in fact exactly that way- so nope, I'm not going to fall for somebody's tricks just cus they have a clean house!!!

Health is not just mental, but physical, surroundings, etc. If you don't feel strong, it's nearly impossible to be mentally strong. If you live chaotically, messy, etc, you are tactless, etc.

It's hard to have self esteem if ur a sensitive person and ur around a bunch of sadistic and hateful assholes. That's why ppl say 'before diagnosing yourself with a mental disorder make sure you're not in fact, around a bunch of assholes.' If I'm not treated well or I'm disrespected too much I just don't show up. I have to focus on myself before I can help/assist others. Some ppl say this is me being a coward but its more like, I'm not going to allow somebody to abuse me when I don't want to be abused.

That's where he needs to not compromise, cut out anyone who is exploitative and only dragging him down. This is when they need to limit who they are kind too, it's not necessarily making those people your enemy, but only surrounding yourself with people who either care for you or mutually benefit you.

But also letting someone take advantage of you would only allow that person to feel more comfortable and possibly take advantage of more people, so that's why you need to also stand up for yourself, and stay on their ass as long as they are around you and your people.

There is a lot I want to say, but no one can't be strong and a victim at the same time, it doesn't work that way. And certainly kindness without strength is just weakness, which there isn't very virtuous if you really think about it. Being nice and all out of fear, not for the sake of it when you don't even need other people.

Warm has integrity, just they require more passion, more reasons to further pressure people when needed. But again I need to be more considerate and less of an asshole even when I have good intentions.

[Warmpolar]

I see, but the consequences of not using the right amount of pressure should scare you into pressuring them. I remember my ESI dad talking about how kindness is doing good while being capable of being a danger, while weakness is just acting good because you can't afford to set anyone off.


Either way, if you don't pressure people in the right moment, they could possibly try to benefit from you, etc. Kindness should only be given to those who don't exploit or try to get the better hand with you. Think along the lines, "They are a waste of time, I should be in a different team"-"If I don't pressure them into working, the rest and I will have to deal with their failure, I better push them."

I like the way you put it. I don't think it'll make it any less comfortable, but it certainly applys a bit or direction as to when. Thanks.

[Muira]

I like the way you put it. I don't think it'll make it any less comfortable, but it certainly applys a bit or direction as to when. Thanks.

Good that my wording was right, but remember you will be much more comfortable knowing that people won't mess with you, things are guaranteed, etc, than having to worry constantly if everything is alright and having to have everyone else push their burden onto you, making you even more stressed.

As much as you want to be comfortable, if you don't learn to pressure people and change your environment to your liking, you wouldn't be able to become comfortable either way. Plus, you may not necessarily always have someone to do all the pressuring for you.

For example, you are working on a group project, everyone is going to do their part expect this one person slacks off and makes the manager pissed or whatever customers, making you or any other worker have to deal with the conflict. Or you feel absolutely exhausted, but your very own co-worker clocks out early and now you have to work overtime because your boss requested you too after someone didn't do their part right away, etc.

A lot of things can happen realistically, so you ought to at least try to do what is necessary, even if it maybe more uncomfortable.

It's not always pushing on other people's boundaries, but also enforcing your own boundaries and even your loved one's boundaries. Pushing other people because it's a team effort, you have to take the blame alongside with them, even if you didn't deserve it.

There is absolutely no reason to be "kind" (easy on, giving, etc) to someone who is being lazy and just dragging everyone else, there is no good reason to reward bad behavior. They'll only just continue.

Here are some good recommendations to build up confidence:

>Stop sloaching, have a more open body language, stop making yourself smaller
>Be stern in tone and do not compromise in deal, make warnings, fallow through witb the warnings
>Only "reward" good behavior, don't even openly or warmly interact with anyone who is lazy or a prick, if they don't work or you, they only work against you(by slowing down the group, using other people while not giving back, etc).
>Start excersing more to really improve your mental health, weight training also helps you become more mentally stronger.
>Remember that just giving into guilt isn't right either way, it doesn't help you or them, nly in extreme situations where there is misfortune, should you be willing to give someone a second chance, etc.
>Plan out your day, be realistic. "Get this done by this time, etc."

Hope this helps

[Warmpolar]

I went to look for some books written by jung, I didn't realize he had so many. what book(s) would you reccomend?

That makes sense from a type perspective, I guess it's like a math problem per se. The better you are at math, the quicker, more accurate and decisive you are.

From a jungian perspective, would active imagnination be a useful tool for the instance described?

I love your use of anylysis and synthesis, it really demostates your comprehensive understanding.

Ok. I never really thought about my ablility to create conditions for a pleasant emotional state, thats incredebly easy. of course, that largely depends on how the other individual responds to my efforts, but i don't really think back when it doesn't work. My general additude is I've tried my best and I did it right, they just didn't respond to my efforts and nothing i'm going to do is going to change that, minus if i'm missing context, oops. Now conversations like this one are relatively new to me, but i'm sure I'll get it down.

Thanks for your response.

[Muira]

I went to look for some books written by jung, I didn't realize he had so many. what book(s) would you reccomend?

Psychology of the Unconscious, Two Essays on Analytical Psychology, and The Psychogenesis of Mental Disease.


(Not a CG Jung book, but..) I also recommend Shame and the Origins of Self-Esteem: A Jungian Approach, but it is pretty expensive and I don't have a free PDF to share.

That makes sense from a type perspective, I guess it's like a math problem per se. The better you are at math, the quicker, more accurate and decisive you are.

Math has always been easy, but rather boring sometimes, I was always marked down for not showing my work even when I could do the work in my head.

From a jungian perspective, would active imagnination be a useful tool for the instance described?

Yes, as long as it serves a purpose to a greater goal. If you only pay attention to a leaf, you'll forget the forest, only pay attention to the forest, you'll forget the important details. However, just because something sounds good in theory, it doesn't exactly work in reality. Just like gas, it behaves unpredictably, yet our principles and formulas only capture a fraction of its properties, etc. You may use intuition to further enforce a principle, etc. Truly, we will only be able to capture only a small perspective of our own world, so perhaps intuition is more essential than we often think.

But it's best to ask yourself, will this actually play out exactly as I imagine? Or Will this work in reality?

I love your use of anylysis and synthesis, it really demostates your comprehensive understanding.

Thanks, I do usually like explaining things, so I can get carried away easily. Glad you liked reading it.

Ok. I never really thought about my ablility to create conditions for a pleasant emotional state, thats incredebly easy. of course, that largely depends on how the other individual responds to my efforts, but i don't really think back when it doesn't work. My general additude is I've tried my best and I did it right, they just didn't respond to my efforts and nothing i'm going to do is going to change that, minus if i'm missing context, oops. Now conversations like this one are relatively new to me, but i'm sure I'll get it down.

Well some people just only respond to harsh consequences, me more inclined to shut those people out, write detailed notes on their work ethic on reports, etc, be extremely transparent and honest.


Here is an example:


“Boss, I'd like to inform you that this colleague hasn't been polite, working when required of them, creating a very uneasy atmosphere for the fellow workers, and hasn't been cooperating with me.”


If needed, keep a whole list of how much work they get done per hour, perhaps the whole team to compare and emphasize how badly they are slacking off.

Thanks for your response.

It was nice to give you further advice to handle your situation.

[Minde]

Re: OP:

That's an interesting question. For me, self-esteem is different than self-evaluation, particularly in practical arenas. I think I've been fairly confident most of my life in my innate value. This might vary based on upbringing, though; my childhood was relatively idyllic and loving. (IME, EIIs tend to have a strong sense of self regardless.) In terms of gauging my abilities to do things, particularly in comparison with others, unless I had a lot of familiarity with it I can have a difficult time determining if I could do something well (enough) or not. Or I might under or over estimate myself.

It's true that as I've chosen to try things, to both fail and succeed, that I've seen for myself what I am capable of, thus decreasing needs for others to tell me I've done well or can do well. So my self-evaluation has improved. And perceiving that I can do well at certain things does have an impact on how I value myself, I suppose.

I'm still working on my emotional maturity.

[Beautiful sky]

I have high self esteem and confidence and my daughter is EII she too has both. I attribute this to parenting style.

[Muira]

I have high self esteem and confidence and my daughter is EII she too has both. I attribute this to parenting style.

How old is she? It's still best to type people over 20 since that is when an individual's personality truly starts to solidify, values get defined due to better critical thinking, etc. From what I see, someone over the age of maybe 12 and below 17 would at best be possibly identified as an ST, NF, NT, or SF, etc at best.

Though I do find that good parents, especially mothers, tend to have children within the same quadra group at least in terms of value most of the time.

Again personality is defined beyond just parenting style, but also environment with peers, news they see, what philosophies they see failing(causing opposing views, rebellion), etc.

[Beautiful sky]

How old is she? It's still best to type people over 20 since that is when an individual's personality truly starts to solidify, values get defined due to better critical thinking, etc. From what I see, someone over the age of maybe 12 and below 17 would at best be possibly identified as an ST, NF, NT, or SF, etc at best.

Though I do find that good parents, especially mothers, tend to have children within the same quadra group at least in terms of value most of the time.

Again personality is defined beyond just parenting style, but also environment with peers, news they see, what philosophies they see failing(causing opposing views, rebellion), etc.

5

[Muira]

5

Very young, just barely starting to form their own personality.

Usually from what I see, personalities tend to flip to the complete opposite during puberty, hence teenage rebellion stereotype. Make sure she isn't exposed to harsh media, rude people, or crude things online.

When she gets older, maybe 13, tell her about how really harsh the world is by word, so that she at least knows the danger, how people work, etc; that way she doesn't have to necessarily experience anything to gain any worldly knowledge.

A child's innocents is more valuable than anything else, and even their peers can mess with it, so also teach her early on about what sorts of people to avoid, early warning signs, etc. However, sadly it's even harsher these days to try to raise children in a wholesome manner with the ridiculous amount of perversion going on in the media, education system, and even children cartoons. So it's best to let her watch the cartoons you possibly grew up watching, make sure you play the games on mobile devices to make sure they are safe before you allow her to play them, etc.

Honestly today, I'd say homeschooling is the best bet for raising children in the appropriate way, but also try to get the father involved after his work.

I also recommend you first explain to her the importance of family over friends, and be careful of whom she hangs out with as mentioned before as people tend to fallow the religion/ideologies of their peers/friends.

You are a very kind person, truly, so I'm 100% sure your daughter will have the best childhood ever.

[youfloweryourfeast]

I think I have a tendency to seek validation from like other people and sometimes I wish I could just change one day to have more confidence in my abilities. I see the potential for something being good but often I'll go to the dark side where I begin to think it will turn out badly. Usually, it helps talking to others or writing things down to realize everything is gonna be fine and maybe it's just contorted with reality, and the past being influences at times.

I believe that trying to integrate safety or realization in the present moment instead of painting a picture of "bad," can help.

For an example of my Polr though in Augusta's writing she says the suggestive causes the most problems, but I think the Polr can bring difficulties that may be harder to understand. When I first had to learn to drive I'd often be afraid I'd crash, I can't see certain things ahead, and worst if I can't do something quick enough. There were times where I had those issues but soon one day I was driving on the road and everything just became easy, I wasn't scared of the other cars as I felt in control of my actions.

With the Polr though I think it's more something you need to be careful with not overdoing but instead learning how to deal with it at your own pace.

[ebrarthelady]

Hi dear @Warmpolar
I had a very low self esteem when I was a child and teenager. Because of my fi I used to care the ones that I love. For example my family. And when they say something bad about me, I used to believe them. I was so good-faithed that I did not think people around me can harm me and I always agree them. At the same time I was harsh and when they said something to me I went mad. I both agreed them and disagreed them. Kinda weird to tell. But I think you understood me well if you are an EII. After my 20 I developed a self-esteem consciously because I needed it. I realized that I always believe people easily. Now I look people's sayings as %50 %50. I developed an criticizing perspective of life and now I am happy with it. I know I am worthy, I am able to be loved, I am good. I think every EII need to realize that they are a good person and they should know their worth. Maybe we are not the best ones but we are "enough" EIIs are tend to misunderstand themselves and their environment. Polr se alert.

I think many EIIs struggle with life but after some time they would find the right way. Discovering yourself is a process and you need to take off your thorny armor.

[ebrarthelady]

Good that my wording was right, but remember you will be much more comfortable knowing that people won't mess with you, things are guaranteed, etc, than having to worry constantly if everything is alright and having to have everyone else push their burden onto you, making you even more stressed.

As much as you want to be comfortable, if you don't learn to pressure people and change your environment to your liking, you wouldn't be able to become comfortable either way. Plus, you may not necessarily always have someone to do all the pressuring for you.

For example, you are working on a group project, everyone is going to do their part expect this one person slacks off and makes the manager pissed or whatever customers, making you or any other worker have to deal with the conflict. Or you feel absolutely exhausted, but your very own co-worker clocks out early and now you have to work overtime because your boss requested you too after someone didn't do their part right away, etc.

A lot of things can happen realistically, so you ought to at least try to do what is necessary, even if it maybe more uncomfortable.

It's not always pushing on other people's boundaries, but also enforcing your own boundaries and even your loved one's boundaries. Pushing other people because it's a team effort, you have to take the blame alongside with them, even if you didn't deserve it.

There is absolutely no reason to be "kind" (easy on, giving, etc) to someone who is being lazy and just dragging everyone else, there is no good reason to reward bad behavior. They'll only just continue.

Here are some good recommendations to build up confidence:

>Stop sloaching, have a more open body language, stop making yourself smaller
>Be stern in tone and do not compromise in deal, make warnings, fallow through witb the warnings
>Only "reward" good behavior, don't even openly or warmly interact with anyone who is lazy or a prick, if they don't work or you, they only work against you(by slowing down the group, using other people while not giving back, etc).
>Start excersing more to really improve your mental health, weight training also helps you become more mentally stronger.
>Remember that just giving into guilt isn't right either way, it doesn't help you or them, nly in extreme situations where there is misfortune, should you be willing to give someone a second chance, etc.
>Plan out your day, be realistic. "Get this done by this time, etc."

Hope this helps

Oh my, I had never thought one day a SLE would give me advices. This might've been sarcastical but most of the SLEs did not treat me well...

[Kurt Gabin]

Hi dear @Warmpolar
I had a very low self esteem when I was a child and teenager. Because of my fi I used to care the ones that I love. For example my family. And when they say something bad about me, I used to believe them. I was so good-faithed that I did not think people around me can harm me and I always agree them. At the same time I was harsh and when they said something to me I went mad. I both agreed them and disagreed them. Kinda weird to tell. But I think you understood me well if you are an EII. After my 20 I developed a self-esteem consciously because I needed it. I realized that I always believe people easily. Now I look people's sayings as %50 %50. I developed an criticizing perspective of life and now I am happy with it. I know I am worthy, I am able to be loved, I am good. I think every EII need to realize that they are a good person and they should know their worth. Maybe we are not the best ones but we are "enough" EIIs are tend to misunderstand themselves and their environment. Polr se alert.

I think many EIIs struggle with life but after some time they would find the right way. Discovering yourself is a process and you need to take off your thorny armor.

Go to the typing section. This will help you correctly select quadra and a thread to whine in.