I find it interesting that you criticize the contents of Ramani's resources for narcissism, yet you're practically quoting something she has said almost verbatim.Originally Posted by Park
:eye:
I find it interesting that you criticize the contents of Ramani's resources for narcissism, yet you're practically quoting something she has said almost verbatim.
:eye:
Today, I'm psychologically experimenting on my father, a malignant narcissist.
I shared some thoughts/ideas that I know touch on his own personal values. However, the same conversation contents also demonstrate that I'm too insightful, knowledgeable, intelligent, and strong-minded to be manipulated. There were two routes he could take: either esteeming and engaging (seeing someone who might be able to be an extension of himself), or devaluing/criticizing/discarding (seeing someone who cannot be controlled, manipulated, etc.) The result: he did recognize that he can't manipulate me.
He responded just as professional psychologists have said narcissists respond to those kinds of people: devalued/criticized/discarded. It was not anything against the contents of the conversation that he criticized, but rather, his criticisms were of the person themselves directly (which, in this case, was me).
In response, I stood firm/turned what he said around, and then I challenged his ego to rise up to the conversation that I know touches on his own personal values. I'm very curious as to what his response will be, if he even says anything back at all. Will he engage to defend his ego, or will he dismiss me and ignore the invitation to his ego because I can't be manipulated? Which one is his priority incentive: his ego/image, or the existence of the potential to manipulate? My hypothesis: he won't respond or engage. Why?: He will not bother to defend his ego to someone he is unable to derive narcissistic supply from. He wants someone who will actually perceive him how he wants to be perceived. Making me perceive it involves too much effort.
In doing this, I'm able to evaluate a narcissist's priorities and other inner-workings through firsthand/hands-on experience. I can observe that although he does value these things in the conversation, he prioritizes (places a greater sense of value on) the ability to manipulate. It could be that he fears being seen, too. However, it reveals (confirms what I knew already) that despite his claims that he "connects to others" through these conversations, and "feels lonely when nobody understands them," his true motive is to manipulate and control, rather than to connect. In the past, these claims were simply him MIRRORING my own feelings by understanding them through COGNITIVE empathy (as well as knowing the way he raised me), in order to establish some sense of connectivity; appearing to have those feelings/desires in common with me. (In other words, it was part of his way of love bombing.) Combined with his other manipulation to isolate me from anyone and everyone else, this made him the embodiment of the "remedy" to the isolation which HE, HIMSELF was also causing me to feel. He made himself both the cause and the cure, in order to secure my attachment to him and make me value him enough to tolerate his abuse. These experiments and observations are also giving me a way to discern whether the feelings during his emotional moments were genuine (him suffering from narcissism) or feigned for the purpose of manipulating me.
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 03-26-2023 at 10:05 PM.
i imagine a narc may be cured if u put them in vulnerable position like they were a child. like put thme in a cage OR be rich and take care of their every need and teach them how to act by slowly showing and explaining everything multiple times and putting them through the right difficult situations so they learn empathy and borders.
https://linktr.ee/tehhnicus
Jesus is King stops black magic and closes portals
self diagnosed ASD, ADHD, schizotypal/affective
Your face makes your brain and sociotype – how muscle use shapes personality
I want to care
if I was better I’d help you
if I was better you’d be better
Human Design 2/4 projector life path 1
https://www.newsintervention.com/pro...-cold-therapy/
Cold Therapy consists of the re-traumatization of the narcissistic client in a hostile, non-holding environment which resembles the ambience of the original trauma. The adult patient successfully tackles this second round of hurt and thus resolves early childhood conflicts and achieves closure rendering his now maladaptive narcissistic defenses redundant, unnecessary, and obsolete.
Cold Therapy makes use of proprietary techniques such as erasure (suppressing the client’s speech and free expression and gaining clinical information and insights from his reactions to being so stifled). Other techniques include: grandiosity reframing, guided imagery, negative iteration, other-scoring, happiness map, mirroring, escalation, role play, assimilative confabulation, hypervigilant referencing, and re-parenting.
https://www.opastpublishers.com/open...f-the-self.pdf
Last edited by Park; 04-01-2023 at 09:13 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
The last psychiatrist blog is the best deep dive source for understanding the pathology.
Yes, the behavior is as toxic as the reputation suggests. And no, it doesn’t really mean what people think it does.
It’s mostly just the consequences of outsourcing your superego.
Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.
Narcs just say some super ego society shit that ppl eat up but internally do the exact opposite of what they are virtue signaling. One male narc I know says things like 'men who don't pay child support are scum' but he himself avoids child support cleverly. Another female narcissist I know goes on and on about morals but is an immoral cunt herself. Joss Whedon talked about respecting and empowering women but irl was cruelly laughing at them and getting incely butthurt that they only date alpha males or whatever. etc. Since everybody is a little bit narcissistic, it's not wise to pay so much attention to what other people say either or anything but outsourcing superego seems like a succint way to put it.
Being playfully selfish isn't narcissistic of course, or when people say it in a more lighthearted way because real narcs do damage to the people around them. Wanting to take a bubble bath for yourself isn't being narcissist, for example. Lol. It might be narcissist though if you claimed the bubbles had special spiritual healing properties and made you feel closer to Oprah, like what Gwenyth Paltrow's goop site would say.
Jade Eggs in my butthole.
Did you mean: the16types.info?
The Deflecting Narcissist: The Art of Evasiveness - Surviving Narcissism
I think this is really why conflict is unwelcome on the forum, not "alpha quadra." Alpha quadra might be relevant, but I don't pay that much attention to socionics nowadays. People clearly seem to have personality types, but even if socionics were definitely a true theory you can still rely on it too heavily, like having a hammer and treating everything as a nail.
RIP this thread. The site is run by someone who at least is a narcissist in the colloquial sense and no one's talking about that here.
...Honestly, I'm not sure why anyone would care about getting the silent treatment from a narcissist unless they were a narcissist. I mean, who needs everyone's attention and approval anyway?
Dr. Ramani make every man with self -esteem deficiency feels like a narcissist. No matter who you are, if you are prone to guilt, shame and Barnum effect and you watch her "Narcissist" video series you will inevitably consider the possibility of having a narcissistic psychological construct. Giving the silent treatment (after having being abused ? yeah guilty !!), having issues with communication like talking about your feelings or being clumsy/immature with your emotions is obviously not exclusive to narcissists but Dr.Ramani sure makes it implied that it is. Plus she is biased by her own world view (Fe dom) for instance when she talks about how it feels to be ignored, she's talking from her subjective perspective but again she kinda objectifies it so to speak as something everyone feels (that's one of the trademarks of 4D valued Fe). I love that woman but I don't like that particular aspect. You might say that the problem is me, and I'll agree (partially) but not reminding the viewer that some traits are not necessarily markers of "problematic" narcissism is also a deliberate choice.
I think I'm a covert narcissist () thanks Dr. Ramani !!
Lack is the Muse of all Poets
She is indeed the worst type of enemy for Fe polr. Already know people like her in rl. If someone doesn’t want to talk to you, just leave them alone pls…
( And for those specific people, yeah, we hate each other unconditionally. They annoyed the shit out of me with their boring mouth and when I’m too tired to listen and can’t react anymore, they began to get aggressive, blaming and created more drama…)
Last edited by Renna; 04-25-2023 at 08:23 AM.
I don’t watch her stuff regularly but I did watch about 3 mins of the video inalim linked above, I think what she doesn’t establish is the context of this “silent treatment” as I would imagine with someone who has/traits of NPD would include off putting nonverbal behavior such as condescension and/or attempts at making you feel bad or guilty (I imagine anyway). I think she works from the assumption people are watching her videos already steeped in/familiar with NPD behavior and wanting to make sense of itDr. Ramani make every man with self -esteem deficiency feels like a narcissist. No matter who you are, if you are prone to guilt, shame and Barnum effect and you watch her "Narcissist" video series you will inevitably consider the possibility of having a narcissistic psychological construct. Giving the silent treatment (after having being abused ? yeah guilty !!), having issues with communication like talking about your feelings or being clumsy/immature with your emotions is obviously not exclusive to narcissists but Dr.Ramani sure makes it implied that it is. Plus she is biased by her own world view (Fe dom) for instance when she talks about how it feels to be ignored, she's talking from her subjective perspective but again she kinda objectifies it so to speak as something everyone feels (that's one of the trademarks of 4D valued Fe). I love that woman but I don't like that particular aspect. You might say that the problem is me, and I'll agree (partially) but not reminding the viewer that some traits are not necessarily markers of "problematic" narcissism is also a deliberate choice.
I think I'm a covert narcissist (
I don’t see it as labeling just any X individual displaying silent treatment as having NPD
my view as of now anyway
I’m not that familiar with her; I more so remember her stuff on BPD but that was kinda superficial and oversimplified (and potentially somewhat inaccurate) imo but whatever
Yes, context matters and words have meaning. I am familiar with her work, but my point was about that the average guy (not real narcissists, they don't get affected by this imho) who is watching those videos on Narcissists and who might relate to some traits and arrive to the conclusion that he is that evil guy that apparently even therapy can't help and whom must be avoided like the plague... I mean you see the implications. I was also pointing out that the more "episodes" you watch of that video series on narcissists the higher chance you have to get the "it's me" feeling and that's the danger of misinterpretation. I mean she's a Mental Health pro. she has to be aware of that. All those potential misunderstandings can be avoided with a simple disclaimer at some point in each video.
With that said, don't get me wrong, I like her and my concern might just be the fruit of my imagination !
I can understand what you mean
I would encourage you to (if you haven't already) seek out researchers on <whatever topic it is> for narcissism, for instance - Kernberg
and so on - others who...I am inclined to think of... as presenting psychological knowledge akin to a hyper-realistic portrait vs. a pop-psych rendering of these topics by Ramani
I am personally inclined to take them more seriously... even if I don't always agree
perhaps both are valuable in some way but she certainly seems more focused on the counseling/helping aspect of psychology and that is perhaps partly why she communicates as she does, idk
Yes, absolutely. Dr. Ramani is also an influencer so there is that too. Thank you for the encouragement, I have been studying those stuff for a while now and I learned from a variety of sources.
I really don’t like overthinking about narcissism. Overlooking for any narcissistic sign of other people must be a painful life to begin with. You could said that everybody has some kind of narcissistic in themselves more or less in some ways. But If you gaze at the abyss long enough, the abyss also gaze at youIt's one of the words those words, resurrected from its ashes by the zeitgeist. It also has been deprived from any positive meaning as if a healthy self-esteem didn't require a healthy dose of narcissism, as if those two aspects were disconnect in our psyche. I'm amazed to see the ease with which people use it, almost like an insult. "That person manipulated me" therefore "narcissist"; "that person wasn't good to me" therefore "narcissist" ; "that person rejected me" therefore "narcissist" etc.. People confuse traits with psychological construct and they don't care about the consequences. NPD everywhere now, custom NPD, you can't escape the NPD !! It's as overdiagnosed as psoriasis ! Everyone is a mental health pro now ! And there are so many women in particular who fall in that kind of projected barnum effect "Oh - My - God !! that's totally him !! He's a narcissist !".
I think we have to be careful with this word because it can be devastating to throw it at a person is not a narcissist and doesn't have NPD in any way shape or form. Narcissist is one of those "ist" and "ism" of the zeitgeist coming from people who can't help but categorize others and lock them in a psychological prison. I think that the war against phallocracy has created extreme faction of which the only purpose is to hate men or despise those who are "deconstructed", emasculated and thus devoid of their mahood. Those amazones are worse than narcissists because unlike them their actions is organized and they move in herds.
Your goal is protecting yourself from potential harms and having a good life, or turning yourself into a monster that losses it’s way in the abyss ~~
Good luck.
When you legitimately understand narcissism, there's no "overthinking" even needed in the first place. You recognize it from miles away. In my case, since both of my parents are, I recognize it because I've seen it literally all of my life. For others, it may be a relationship that lasted 12 years. Time varies--but my point is, when you know, then you know...and when you know, and you see people who don't know but still use the word, you also roll your eyes at those false claims because you know exactly how much damage those assholes who aren't careful when using the label are doing.
It's like the boy who cried wolf, except...you're not even the one crying wolf, but the rest of society is; and you as a wolf attack survivor know exactly what real victims of it are going to have to experience when said victims cry wolf and no one listens.
It's difficult enough to explain what you've been through to those who have never experienced narcissistic abuse as it is. I hold nothing but contempt for those who throw the word around without caution. They make it even harder on us to insomuchas tell our stories after it's over, much less be heard when it's still happening...if we even make it out alive. I almost didn't myself, which is why I know how real the damage that's being done actually is. If society back when I was a kid actually had the awareness surrounding narcissism that it has access to today, who knows what it could've changed in my life, in my brother's life? Frankly, I'm not sure it would've changed anything at all, because those who use the term loosely are desensitizing others to it so much that I don't really know if people would've listened or noticed. Hell, if anything, now that I think about it...it probably would've made it even worse because then the narcissists know how to act less narcissistic and more charming around others, but the others don't even bother to pick up on the narcissism just because they don't take it seriously.
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 07-20-2023 at 05:53 AM.
This case reminds me so much of my childhood...the way the baby's parents fought, the condition of the house (actually, my home when I was a child was even worse), so many other parts of it. It got me thinking about things tonight.
To catch you up with my own thoughts: there have been some things my parents shared that simply don't add up. This much, I've known for a while.
1.) My dad's stories don't match my mom's claim that my dad was never abusive within the 1st 3 years of my life. That's not saying much, they both lie: my dad could've lied about the age I was when when he disciplined me too harshly and I understood everything/corrected my behavior, and my mom could've lied about his behavior during that time because she knew I was asking for the purpose of giving my own child self a psychological screening.
2.) My mom's claim doesn't match what my therapist says was probably something I recall from age 3 because of trauma.
3.) My mom's claim doesn't match who and how my dad is. He wouldn't have been able to go that long without showing extreme overt aggression and abuse at some point.
I know my mother is lying. I don't know why, but I know she is. There's too much evidence weighing against her. I don't really care why much, because she lies all the time, and her motives never surprise me anymore because they're always the same old bullshit patterns playing on the same repeating loop. It's not even interesting at this point. My real curiosity is about what really happened back then.
I never thought about it until tonight after seeing this video, but all my life, one side of my "false ribs" have always been shorter than the other, and "deformed" as though they were like...folded under. I assumed it was just another bone deformity, but now I wonder if it's possible that my dad broke them when I was a baby and then they healed that way.
Finding out whether someone actually even understands narcissism is easy. Just ask them to summarize it in a brief definition, one sentence only. Most people will tell you it's an excessive love for oneself. That's generally all it takes to know they don't have a clue as to what it is. When hearing the word thrown around grows tiresome, do that instead of dismissing the person's claims by lumping them in with the rest.
Those who understand it, can easily recognize it is something more like having an inability to love anyone at all, including themselves...and then trying to find a way to live with themselves while having no love to give to themselves. That's the very core of what narcissism even is. That's the root of what all of their other behaviors and patterns originate from.
I'm glad they never published it as this. It would've been misunderstood and misconstrued in a plethora of ways that would have had toxic effects on society.
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 07-20-2023 at 07:53 AM.
Being in contact with my mother entails a constant back and forth of cat and mouse, a constant power struggle. In my case, it's self-preservation and self-defense; in her case, she's just a predator who disguises herself (to others) as prey, in order to use others as the predators in her stead.
It's always the same old, same old. I'm direct, straightforward, blunt, and I have a "no bullshit" kind of personality. I'm an authentic person. She manipulatively weaponizes those personality traits by using them to make me out to be the aggressor (because her image is "Little Miss Innocent and Weak Victim" while I'm not averse to confronting shit head on, even though that means getting into conflicts sometimes). She does that so that she will gain leverage/power via manipulating everyone else into defending her; and really, she is too weak to defend her own self head-on, if seeing her in past situations that required her to are any indication. She always has to call others to her defense, and if she can't do that, she's a defenseless coward.
Same old, same old. Same tactics and games over, and over, and over again. She gets you in private and brings out the claws, then turns around and acts innocent as soon as anyone else comes into the picture. She goes way out of her way to establish and maintain her image, and I don't, so everyone else ends up deceived by her.
Any lack of independence makes me vulnerable to her manipulation because I have no choice but to accept the help she offers me despite knowing exactly what angle she's playing by way of her "help." These days, I've been playing along with her manipulation as a means of using her for that, so that I can survive and climb my way up in life. That's where the power struggle comes from. I felt bad for doing this initially. Not because of injury to her, but because of resorting to such behaviors and adopting that kind of character. My therapist made a good point, though: she's my mother and she never provided me with the foundations a child was supposed to be provided with. She owes me. I'm her daughter and she should've been providing back then, but she instead destroyed my opportunities. It's fair that I use her to give them to me now and forcefully take the help she should've given me when I was a kid. She's a half the reason (my dad being the other half) that I ended up in that hole in the first place. I deserve the help I'm forcefully taking from her. However, it's not without a price. I know she is scheming. The difference is, I no longer care about the ways she will smear my name with her people. I already accepted that none of them are my family because of her. I'm fine with her weaponizing my family against me, I have no attachment to the relationships she's weaponizing. There are no relationships there anymore anyway, and I honestly don't feel like I've lost much because their enabling and narcissistic supply only demonstrates their poor character. All I care about this time, is meeting my needs.
However, she's triggered my alarms from an unexpected angle. I'm sort of kicking myself because it shouldn't have even been unexpected. Sometimes, I get caught up in the deceptive illusion of having an actual mother that cares. If you've ever seen Amazon's "Hanna," in Season 2, how the girls are given fake lives, backstories, and families that they talk to online...how there's a single woman behind all of the fake messages from dads, sisters, and other family members...and the girls know it, but because of the voids they feel from never having love or family makes them cave in to the illusion of it...that's the same as my own struggle, but it's with my actual mother. She is a snake in the grass that takes on the illusion of a mother, but only when it offers her narcissistic supply. If there's nothing in it for her, she's not there for it. I know that, but I got caught up in the illusion and let my guard down. I should've been guarding every single step of the way. She asked for some information and I gave it to her, including the name I've intended to someday legally change to in order to disappear from her and all of my family. I loosened my grip for just a moment, and that was enough for me to become vulnerable to her games. I've known her to abuse the legal system by manipulating it against me and I should've been recording every single interaction we had, maintaining records of it all as legal evidence, in order to protect myself. It's suspicious, the information that she asked for...and although I understand her patterns, it's obviously impossible to predict every exact action--even if I can usually do that because she's been the same way all my life and I perceive every action and motive. I'm always 7 steps ahead of her, but by letting down my guard and indulging in the illusion of having a mother, I've given her the advantage. I got too comfortable with my sense of being in control. When I asked, she claimed she wanted my information so that she could make me her beneficiary on her life insurance, but I don't believe her...I believe she's about to weaponize it against me via the legal system somehow.
So, that's why I feel threatened. It's stupid because it's not even because she gained the upper hand, I basically just let my guard down so that I gave it over to her...
This is interesting to me because it offers a perspective from an angle that I didn't consider. It's also helpful to me in the sense that I can use it to refine my own communication to others when I'm talking to them about narcissism.Dr. Ramani make every man with self -esteem deficiency feels like a narcissist. No matter who you are, if you are prone to guilt, shame and Barnum effect and you watch her "Narcissist" video series you will inevitably consider the possibility of having a narcissistic psychological construct. Giving the silent treatment (after having being abused ? yeah guilty !!), having issues with communication like talking about your feelings or being clumsy/immature with your emotions is obviously not exclusive to narcissists but Dr.Ramani sure makes it implied that it is. Plus she is biased by her own world view (Fe dom) for instance when she talks about how it feels to be ignored, she's talking from her subjective perspective but again she kinda objectifies it so to speak as something everyone feels (that's one of the trademarks of 4D valued Fe). I love that woman but I don't like that particular aspect. You might say that the problem is me, and I'll agree (partially) but not reminding the viewer that some traits are not necessarily markers of "problematic" narcissism is also a deliberate choice.
I think I'm a covert narcissist (
Have you ever experienced a relationship with a narcissist in RL?
I don't perceive Ramani's work in this way. In my case, because I've been constantly exposed to the narcissistic patterns all my life, I perceive her videos differently. I see vivid distinctions between what you said here and her works.
Thanks ! Yes, I have.
First of all, I want to point out that like you said for the general people (including a lot of Influencers) there is a huge confusion between "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" and the word "Narcissist" (/ "Narcissism"). The former is a clinical diagnosis of a Pathology and the later refers to individuals presenting a set of non-pathological traits of personality.
Note that as we all know, "Narcissism" is originally a major Freudian concept in Psychoanalysis. There is therefore a Philosophical and abstract approach in the understanding of that term that has to be factorized. (See : Paul-Claude Racamier (and his concept of "Pervers Narcissique) / Jacques Lancan / and Melanie Klein).
Now, "Narcissism" because of this confusion has been associated almost exclusively with a negative connotation. People forget about healthy narcissism and what that means.
When you ask people and the so called "influencers' interested in psychology, self-development etc, "What is a Narcissist ?" 90% of them will give the DSM definition of NPD. That's not what you asked though. You see, that's a problem precisely because of the social medias, it's like a fake news but not really, more like a poorly-informed news !
That said, I came to the conclusion that the word "Narcissist" as it is commonly used is but a bankable and rather abstract term used to attract clicks in social media. To me, its meaning in isolation is only a reference to the Myth of Narcissus and his characteristic traits, an Archetype if you will. This term became like a catch-all term under the era of social media. It wasn't fashion until the beginning of the 2000's, the rise of the Neo-feminism and the rapid diffusion of that ideology thanks to social media. Obviously the term "Narcissist" is mainly a "Men problem" because in the collective unconscious the "Narcissus Archetype" is male, the term is very rarely associated with women. Incidentally, the word has a masculine gender in some (if not all but I haven't really checked that out !) languages that uses grammatical genders like French.
There is a phenomenon of generalization that occurred with that term which is indeed generic and that rendered its definition complicated. For instance if we ask a bunch of people to Imagine the word "Anxious" (or "Phobic") it would be difficult because it's an abstract word. However, if I ask them to attache to it the article "A/An" to that word then their brain will automatically associates the term with an archetypal image of a broad-spectrum kind. Now if if I ask each of those persons "what is an anxious" they will pinpoint a "color" in the spectrum of that image. They'll focus mainly on some aspects or traits of "an anxious" but not on all the spectrum.
I think that there is a part of ourselves that we project that influence the way we see "A narcissist". It's like something toxic to us, our kryptonite, traits that are in opposition of our Ego, traits from our own shadow to use a Jungian terminology.
Here is an illustration of the problem, I'll ask several shrinks the question : What is a Narcissist ( Not NPD !!) ?
Dr. Tracey Marks (My favorite !) : https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iEFEbBWTyr0
Kati Morton : https://www.youtube.com/shorts/OLerTAy1xpc
Dr David Clark : https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XPQBswU60_E
Dr. Grande : Just click on this because there are so many the research result in and of itself speaks volume !
but I choose this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al1077dL8Es
As you know, non-pathological "Narcissism" is a spectrum. Within that spectrum the personality traits (Temperaments /type) are a determinant factor as to how "Narcissism" manifests in the subject.
Now, Dr. Ramani (THE expert on Narcissism !) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEfS-_a21kk (I like the fact that she makes the distinction between "Narcissism"/ " A Narcissist" and NPD )
And this one puts 15% of the population ( Trust me bro !) in the box ! : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uJs0iGQN0M
Covert/vulnerable (more like an Introverts) - Overt /Grandiose (more like an extrovert) - Malignant (Anti-social traits) - Communal Narcissist ( ostentatious / Attention seeking (?)).
Sometimes I feel like people pick one of those terms as an insult or project on other people their own negative traits. Some other see anyone who is not like them as a Narcissist. If you have alexithymia you'll be perceived as a narcissist or psychopath by a person who values emotional expression. If you are a Man (esp white ) you'll be automatically categorized as a narcissist by some others. Etc... etc...
Finally, Narcissistic abuse is a devastating thing for the victims. The legislation doesn't help since Narcissism is not recognized as a Disorder or a psychological construct that will unavoidably lead to the suffering of people. We can only admit that it is inscribed in the human condition. Not all the bad guys are in prison of institutionalized, they have to be convicted of a crime first...
I think it is worth mentioning that most people don't empathize with the Narcissist, as if it was a lost cause, a demon that has to be ostracized. Even some mental health pro prescribes to flee from the Narcissist for he/she can't be cured. The misandry that became a fashion of the zeitgeist (at least where the light shines the most) doesn't help. The question is why do we allow them to live among us instead of punting them in prison or in a mental institution ? I don't like to hear such defeatism. In fact, there are a lot of therapeutic approaches that can give good results.
Anyways, sorry for this long post and keep in mind that I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just speculating about what could be happening in a situation like this. (Courtesy of Dr. Grande !)
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Last edited by godslave; 07-21-2023 at 02:10 AM. Reason: add some stuff and order to the mess
Well, depends on what definition of narcissism you're referring to. In the diagnostic or psychological sense, yes. Outside of that, narcissism goes back a bit further, back to Narcissus in Greek Mythology.
I think that mainly stems from the general population's lack of interest in knowledge/education, honestly. Shit just floats around in hear-say or resources that are created in the form of entertainment, for most people.Now, "Narcissism" because of this confusion has been associated almost exclusively with a negative connotation. People forget about healthy narcissism and what that means.
In that case, you just need to be more specific about what you're really asking when you ask.When you ask people and the so called "influencers' interested in psychology, self-development etc, "What is a Narcissist ?" 90% of them will give the DSM definition of NPD. That's not what you asked though. You see, that's a problem precisely because of the social medias, it's like a fake news but not really, more like a poorly-informed news !
Ehh, it refers to multiple things...but when people use it as an insult/slur, they're generally referring to the diagnostic kind, since that has become popularized as clickbait like you said. I haaaaated this one person on PerC for posting that kind of shit. I always reported those posts of theirs as "propaganda" because it was the closest I could come to reporting "misinformation," lmao. The person always posted these super sensationalized versions of it that painted them as like...vampires, or people with demonic possession, or something, who were coming to take you away in the night like the Boogeyman. There was a lot of inaccurate information in there and it was just designed to produce fear.That said, I came to the conclusion that the word "Narcissist" as it is commonly used is but a bankable and rather abstract term used to attract clicks in social media. To me, its meaning in isolation is only a reference to the Myth of Narcissus and his characteristic traits, an Archetype if you will. This term became like a catch-all term under the era of social media. It wasn't fashion until the beginning of the 2000's, the rise of the Neo-feminism and the rapid diffusion of that ideology thanks to social media. Obviously the term "Narcissist" is mainly a "Men problem" because in the collective unconscious the "Narcissus Archetype" is male, the term is very rarely associated with women. Incidentally, the word has a masculine gender in some (if not all but I haven't really checked that out !) languages that uses grammatical genders like French.
I'm familiar with grammatical genders in languages. I know a few other languages, although I'm not fluent in anything besides English. German, same thing; Greek, same thing.
Most of those with NPD are males, too, but there are also women. NPD is associated with particular temperaments in combination with epigenetics, and in theory (this is just me personally talking here, nothing official) that could be the reason there are more men than women who have it. Certain temperaments are more common in men than women, and vice-versa.
Absolutely, 100%, and they should advise that. It's because they understand that a lot of the reason people even get caught up with narcissists is they hope to "fix" or "save" them. Problem is, they can't, and they need to put their own health first. My own advice is to flee from the narcissist as well, and it would be even if I had no prior knowledge of the psychology behind it. That's because I would tell people that based on firsthand experience alone, even.I think it is worth mentioning that most people don't empathize with the Narcissist, as if it was a lost cause, a demon that has to be ostracized. Even some mental health pro prescribes to flee from the Narcissist for he/she can't be cured.
Having empathy for a narcissist, and staying around a narcissist, are not intrinsically one and the same. In what I recognize is only an illogical and imaginary idea that stems from the subconscious manifestation of my own desire for comfort (thus I don't take it seriously and I instead see it as an indication that I have a need for comfort that I should seek in better ways), I have imagined that perhaps someday, when my dad is dead, he will be freed from this illness and capable of being himself without that "tumor" on him, and he will see me living my life, and be able to smile warmly and be proud of me without only saying "I'm proud of you" because he is encouraging me to climb in the direction of his own values in support of his desired image because of his narcissism. I truly do love my father. Ive started crying while writing this because this whole entire situation pains me--not for reasons related to myself, or the pain and injury I've endured, but because I just wish he wasn't afflicted by this illness and that he would be able to experience what it's like to live a normal, happy, healthy life for himself.
Mostly for the sake of my own closure (since I've known deep down that he won't change), I have engaged with him a small handful of times even after knowing he's a malignant narcissist, in order to try to steer him out of it. "Save him from it." However, I have maintained firm boundaries and I haven't allowed him to abuse or disrespect me. I guess, really, it was more like...I had to give it a shot before he dies, just so that I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there was never anything I could've done to rescue him. I also tried to have a distant relationship with him while maintaining firm boundaries, and that didn't work, either. He's just too toxic and abusive for me to even be able to do that much.
I need a few minutes. I'm going to respond to the rest of this post later. Posting the response I have thus far so that I won't lose my progress. I think if I saved it in a word document instead, I'd forget about it. God...nothing quite gets me like thinking about my dad dying, thinking about how he will never see normalcy, thinking about just...all of it. Goddamn it...he never chose this, he was just a child who went through so much...he never even stood a chance...it's unfair to him...
Last edited by Fluffy Princess Unicorn; 07-21-2023 at 11:17 AM.
Both mean pathological, harmful traits as it's negative terms.
The difference between medical diagnosis and widely used term it that diagnosis is more concrete and strict, as for example based on DSM algorithms.
You surprisingly add cases when opposing to evident.
Since the time of initial myth to be associated with Narciss had negative sense. In recent times have appeared the term "narcissism" which was related to psychiatry disorder or a symptom.
So negative understanding of the term is main and common. Even if somewhere it can used with positive association, what I did not saw still.
Last edited by Sol; 07-21-2023 at 10:22 AM.
No sir, narcissism is not necessarily pathological or harmful. In psychology (esp Freudian psychoanalysis), it's not a negative term on it own or like I said "in isolation" (please read Freud about primary narcissism and secondary narcissism ). A healthy dose of narcissism is absolutely necessary to a balanced self-esteem. If you hate yourself, then that's a problem that may be pathological for instance that can be due to depression. If you love yourself too much that can be pathological only if others don't exist so to speak. Healthy Narcissism is a positive thing, that's obvious.
Now, there is such thing as "Pathological Narcissism". Note that we say "Pathological' as an opposition to "non-pathological" or healthy, that means that "Narcissism" (again in isolation or in absolute) is not necessarily something negative. We used to say "Egoistic" before the term "Narcissist" became fashion. Now here is a definition of Pathological Narcissism that I like : "Narcissism is essentially the creation of false self to protect an insecure self" it's from Dr. Grande.
You surprisingly add cases when opposing to evident.Sorry I didn't understand this. Do you mean that I'm nitpicky or something like that ? (guilty btw !
). In this case I wasn't though, at least not consciously. I think what I say is true and somewhat substantiated
. Even if I'm not into most of the Freudian stuff, modern psychology still refer to his work in some cases and we must not forget that Jung himself was a Freudian. the "N" in NPD is a direct reference to Freud concept of Narcissism.
Last edited by godslave; 07-21-2023 at 10:50 AM.
Sam Vaknin labels norm breaking as psychopathic. He labelled Jung as such. I find it very weird. His lifestyle did not align with every norm, lol. Anyway...
Dunno who said it, so let's give the honor to Albert Einstein.If Your Only Tool Is a Hammer Then Every Problem Looks Like a Nail
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google says up to 5% of people have NPD. That’s quite a lot. quite a lot of managers lol
@godslave
also about "not-pathological" status
"There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes" (Solomon Provebs)
1st(!) goes to think yourself (generally) above others. While narcissism supposes this.
This is important part of "Abrahamic" religions and hence is significant in cultures with them dominating.
Narcissism's core is redundant egocentrism, - an infantile trait which misses the importance to take into account and to care about interests of other people, secondary misses the importance of objectivity (as objectivity relates to matching with opinion of other people). With psychoses it may develop to megalomania ideas to be someone (or even something) else, while on lesser level ("neurotic") the similar congnitive issues stay hiden and lesser expressed. This makes problems not only to other people, but also to the individ as he depends from a cooperation with others and hence of caring about them.
As an example of cognitive issues. One of seen humans with a behavior fiting to narcissism claimed alike : "I depend from noone". In the same time, this human made demands to other people so their behavior fited to something he wished, - so be changed the behavior from which he claimed to do not depend.
That human also could to claim impudent lie, which was easy to point and to check. Intelligence was normal. He seems just underesteemated the need to be objective with others, following to lack of general interest of importance for them to know the truth and just did not cared about them in this. The human was a woman with EIE or mb IEI.
I saw other cases of people with a high tendency to self-praising, what sometimes looked comically. For them was not unusual to break promises or to lie. At least, one of them had criminal behavior and later developed a psychosis. An example of linking of "narcissism" with criminal behavior is dark triad.
I was about to video-quote him in my previous post but I found his videos relevant to the topic too long. What's the "norm" anyway ? This dude was a deviant psychopath for sure ! I'm not sure but it seems to me that Sam VAknin did a documentary some years ago in which he claimed to be a real Psychopath (?). If it's not him then the guy looked like him very much.
That's Abraham Maslow . I was paraphrasing him.Dunno who said it, so let's give the honor to Albert Einstein.
My definition of evil is simple. Its pure selfishness. In whatever form that takes.
We can sympathize with selfishness, understand it. Even pity it. But when you are on the other side of it, it hurts and it can damage.
What better person to tell how to deal with a narc than a narc himself, like Sam? Narcs are still human, even as they dehumanize everyone else.
Its not the megalomania narc you need to be afraid of. Its the self-hating, covert narc.@godslave
also about "not-pathological" status
"There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: haughty eyes" (Solomon Provebs)
1st(!) goes to think yourself (generally) above others. While narcissism supposes this.
This is important part of "Abrahamic" religions and hence is significant in cultures with them dominating.
Narcissism's core is redundant egocentrism, - an infantile trait which misses the importance to take into account and to care about interests of other people, secondary misses the importance of objectivity (as objectivity relates to matching with opinion of other people). With psychoses it may develop to megalomania ideas to be someone (or even something) else, while on lesser level ("neurotic") the similar congnitive issues stay hiden and lesser expressed. This makes problems not only to other people, but also to the individ as he depends from a cooperation with others and hence of caring about them.
As an example of cognitive issues. One of seen humans with a behavior fiting to narcissism claimed alike : "I depend from noone". In the same time, this human made demands to other people so their behavior fited to something he wished, - so be changed the behavior from which he claimed to do not depend.
That human also could to claim impudent lie, which was easy to point and to check. Intelligence was normal. He seems just underesteemated the need to be objective with others, following to lack of general interest of importance for them to know the truth and just did not cared about them in this. The human was a woman with EIE or mb IEI.
I saw other cases of people with a high tendency to self-praising, what sometimes looked comically. For them was not unusual to break promises or to lie. At least, one of them had criminal behavior and later developed a psychosis. An example of linking of "narcissism" with criminal behavior is dark triad.
One thing many people fail to understand is that pathological Narcissism is a self-delusory condition. Narcissists construct and interact with introjects (an accumulation of internalized objects, i.e., internal representations of people or "snapshots" that are highly subjectivized and distorted) rather than directly with external objects. To compensate for their lack of object permanence (inability to see people for who they are in a holistic way and not be afraid of interacting with and relying on them), narcissists develop introject permanence as a stabilizing mechanism and align everyone and everything in their lives to fit their narratives, ambitions, goals, etc., including their need for positive self-affirming attention and approval. This goes a step further with intimate relationships where the narcissist lures in and plays out shared fantasies with their close friends and romantic partners, often going through intense idealization-devaluation cycles.
Narcissists have highly selective perception and retention of information, constantly filtering, enhancing, reframing, and categorizing things in a way that creates cognitively distorted beliefs about themselves and others. As a result, most of the narcissist's lies, delusions, false narratives, gaslighting, etc., are NOT deliberate. Most of the time these things arise unconsciously from the narcissist's mind and manifest themselves in their interpersonal relationships. To put it simply, they delude themselves as much as if not more than others.
Contrast this to the anti-social psychopath, who is goal-oriented and always aware and conscious of what they are doing. It is the psychopath who will lie, cheat, manipulate, gaslight, etc., in a very focused, merciless, cruel, premeditated manner, only to achieve their goals. The typical narcissist is/does none of these things, but they can rather be seen as infantile, immature, eccentric, self-absorbed, but also naive and gullible in comparison. And this is a distinction many self-styled pop-psychology experts fail to make.
Last edited by Park; 07-21-2023 at 09:59 PM.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Very good points ! I like the distinction you brought up, in fact it's essential to understand that most of the psychological mechanisms that occur in the Narcissist mind are unconscious. The narcissist is fooled by a false self but the mastermind behind the false self is always the unconscious, whereas in the case of psychopathy (esp Factor 1 psychopathy) the manipulative behaviors are totally conscious.
Under 3 minutes - worth a peek.
Quite moving and it kinda breaks me down emotionally via mirroring.
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Yup. An interesting phenomenon is the comorbid case (the "psychopathic narcissist") which in my view would be like the classic narcissist I described above, with the addition of the PROCLIVITY to engage in psychopathic behaviors as means to an end. In other words, they will (at a certain point) recognize and consciously use (or keep using) manipulative/aggressive/violent tactics to arrive at their goals (which would tend to converge into narcissistic supply).
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
I think, this case (although fictional) is a good archetypal illustration of the classical "Psycho"
There has to be some way to "repair" them.
Then, the angel asked her what her name was. She said: "I have none"
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