The Ukraine Question

[End]

Criterion of truth: Everything the Kremlin says must necessarily be considered false. That's a very reliable metric to figure on what is actually going on.

I'd add that the "official" line out of any country is necessarily false. Anything else, and I do mean anything else, is potentially true. The one thing you can know with absolute certainty is false is the "officially" endorsed and reported on "Truth" by the MSM in/by any country of note. It's all an intelligence psyop.

At the very least you're only getting the parts of the story the PTB want you to know about. They'll tell you the truth if and when it suits their purposes. When it does not then they will either lie about or otherwise omit those rather critical details we ought to be told about. Official lines are almost always BS and when they ain't they lack critical details so as to better mold your opinion and line of thinking towards the ones the PTB would like you to have.

As one comedian put it so eloquently: "It's called Tele-Vision-Programming. They're telling you visually what to program you're being programmed!​" Don't just let em' do that to ya.

[Adam Strange]

Historian dismantles all pro Russia arguments about Ukraine and NATO

[Metamorph]

I'd add that the "official" line out of any country is necessarily false. Anything else, and I do mean anything else, is potentially true. The one thing you can know with absolute certainty is false is the "officially" endorsed and reported on "Truth" by the MSM in/by any country of note. It's all an intelligence psyop.

At the very least you're only getting the parts of the story the PTB want you to know about. They'll tell you the truth if and when it suits their purposes. When it does not then they will either lie about or otherwise omit those rather critical details we ought to be told about. Official lines are almost always BS and when they ain't they lack critical details so as to better mold your opinion and line of thinking towards the ones the PTB would like you to have.

As one comedian put it so eloquently: "It's called Tele-Vision-Programming. They're telling you visually what to program you're being programmed!​" Don't just let em' do that to ya.

I'm not even sure how much MSM is really run by countries anyways or the countries' governments just view it as a necessary evil or can't do anything about it if they wanted. That being said, countries are still under suspicion by default. I just tend to doubt things as so monolithic. While things would be a lot better if the good guys had all the power, I think things would also be a lot worse if the bad guys really had all the power.

[End]

I'm not even sure how much MSM is really run by countries anyways or the countries' governments just view it as a necessary evil or can't do anything about it if they wanted. That being said, countries are still under suspicion by default. I just tend to doubt things as so monolithic. While things would be a lot better if the good guys had all the power, I think things would also be a lot worse if the bad guys really had all the power.

If you haven't heard of the concept of the "Public-Private Partnership" I'd highly recommend you familiarize yourself with the concept. I've posted this video elsewhere but to those who missed it, well, tell me if this doesn't fill in a critical gap or two regarding how you feared the world might actually be working effectively in one of your nightmares:



Dare anyone who thinks I'm full of shit to gainsay me on this one. This is exactly how a small cabal of assholes (relatively speaking) could, can, and currently does run the whole world from the shadows. Thankfully their time is coming to an end. The Davos Men and others (like the CCP) who have all the same goals yet seek to be themselves the Lord of Humanity instead of the Deluded Mensheviks (for there can only ever be only one "King" as it were).

Again, hoping they don't go full "fuck it" and do as their true master would in accord with being the sorest loser one could imagine and trying to glass the planet (metaphorically speaking) as they try and fuck off to Tau Ceti on a colony ship or something. Might go down like that and I've read some pretty good novels from multiple authors who baked that occurrence (in one permutation or another) into the premise of their work.

In my own works where that might come up I'd like to describe how humanity ultimately nipped that rather major problem in the bud. Got to em' and ended their asses before they became Satan's little darkness he flung into the far future. Try he did, and fail he did as well. Just like when he thought killing Christ as slow and painfully as he could manage was a wonderfully awesome idea from his POV.

It wasn't. From his POV anyway given how it all turned out for everyone. Couldn't have fucked himself over any harder if he had tried. Such is the fate of those who treat with Evil. The literal embodiment of evil is not immune from it either. Satan will lose. He knows that. Yet he persists in his mad idiocy. Sin makes you stupid after all and the greatest sinner of them all must logically and necessarily be the biggest idiot one could imagine...

[Adam Strange]

The successful Ukrainian counter-attacks on the Russian invaders are scaring the shit out of the Russian propagandists.

Here is one propagandist calling for nuclear strikes on Ukraine.

https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FFcAoJa-XgAApR9H.png

Ukraine is trying to do what no other country has done since 1918, which is to take territory without massed air and tank support. A mass of Ukrainian armored vehicles would provide a too-tempting target for a cornered rat with nuclear weapons, so the Ukrainian forces have to attack in a dispersed formation. This makes their job incredibly harder. And much, much slower.

Right now, the Ukrainians are encircling Russian forces in the west and the east, which could lead to the mass destruction or surrender of 30 to 40 thousand Russian troops. So far, Putin and his generals have shown a remarkable disregard for the lives of Russian solders. Maybe Putin, like H!tler before him, will blame his soldiers for being insufficiently patriotic and will simply abandon them to their fate.

Maybe Putin will simply declare victory in Ukraine, will walk away and will clamp down on Russian dissidents even more tightly in an ultimately futile attempt to keep the "Russian Federation" under his thumb.

Or maybe he will see that his own end is near and will order nuclear strikes across Ukraine. He might go from murdering his political enemies to murdering a nation.

Or maybe Putin will undergo a change of heart and will send all oil and gas revenues to Ukraine for the purpose of rebuilding what he destroyed, and then will change the Russian government into a liberal democracy and resign.

I'm taking bets, if anyone is interested.

[Minde]

Putin reminds me in some ways of the owner of the company that cheated us out of thousands.

[Manatroid92]

The successful Ukrainian counter-attacks on the Russian invaders are scaring the shit out of the Russian propagandists.

Here is one propagandist calling for nuclear strikes on Ukraine.

https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FFcAoJa-XgAApR9H.png

Ukraine is trying to do what no other country has done since 1918, which is to take territory without massed air and tank support. A mass of Ukrainian armored vehicles would provide a too-tempting target for a cornered rat with nuclear weapons, so the Ukrainian forces have to attack in a dispersed formation. This makes their job incredibly harder. And much, much slower.

Right now, the Ukrainians are encircling Russian forces in the west and the east, which could lead to the mass destruction or surrender of 30 to 40 thousand Russian troops. So far, Putin and his generals have shown a remarkable disregard for the lives of Russian solders. Maybe Putin, like H!tler before him, will blame his soldiers for being insufficiently patriotic and will simply abandon them to their fate.

Maybe Putin will simply declare victory in Ukraine, will walk away and will clamp down on Russian dissidents even more tightly in an ultimately futile attempt to keep the "Russian Federation" under his thumb.

Or maybe he will see that his own end is near and will order nuclear strikes across Ukraine. He might go from murdering his political enemies to murdering a nation.

Or maybe Putin will undergo a change of heart and will send all oil and gas revenues to Ukraine for the purpose of rebuilding what he destroyed, and then will change the Russian government into a liberal democracy and resign.

I'm taking bets, if anyone is interested.

Tell me what you’re betting first, then I’ll consider it.

[Adam Strange]

Putin reminds me in some ways of the owner of the company that cheated us out of thousands.

@Minde, how are they similar?

[Adam Strange]

Now that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is collapsing, some of the young Russian soldiers are starting to sound like members of the US peace movement from the Vietnam era.

“I don’t see in the trenches the children of Skabeyeva, Solovyov, Kiselev, Rogozin, Lavrov, and Medvedev” — the first three being Russian propagandists, the latter three being top policymakers — “even as I continually hear their calls to kill.”

“For many it will be hard to recognize the truth and the fact that we liberated no one, but simply destroyed cities and killed many people. But when they do realize this, then there’ll be a collapse.”

https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...le-are-afraid/

[Minde]

@Minde, how are they similar?

Well, there are a few ways that come to mind right off...

- Isn't wrong. Ever. Even over stupid little things.
- There is no negotiating with him. His way or nukes (or so he insists).
- Might is right. If you oppose him, he uses his resources to crush you.
- Targets the weakest and most desperate, uses them like inanimate resources.
- Everyone else is stupid and probably evil. Definitely out to get him.
- Refuses to take responsibility for the harm his actions (or inactions) cause.
- After signing a contract with him, he basically expects to own your soul.
- Criticism is slander and cause for war.
- He can break the rules but you can't. Rules don't apply to him.
- He can say a lot of "right" things, but living by or following through on them is a different story (see "rules" above).

That's a start.

[Adam Strange]

Well, there are a few ways that come to mind right off...

- Isn't wrong. Ever. Even over stupid little things.
- There is no negotiating with him. His way or nukes (or so he insists).
- Might is right. If you oppose him, he uses his resources to crush you.
- Targets the weakest and most desperate, uses them like inanimate resources.
- Everyone else is stupid and probably evil. Definitely out to get him.
- Refuses to take responsibility for the harm his actions (or inactions) cause.
- After signing a contract with him, he basically expects to own your soul.
- Criticism is slander and cause for war.
- He can break the rules but you can't. Rules don't apply to him.
- He can say a lot of "right" things, but living by or following through on them is a different story (see "rules" above).

That's a start.

Whew. I see.

My EII financial manager told me that she doesn't like the way one of our main customers does business. I asked her what it was about them that she didn't like, and her response was much like yours.

Fortunately, when she gets pissed off at their not paying their bills, she goes after them. Like Mike Tyson.

One of Tyson's opponents once said that Tyson fights like you stole something from him. I'm glad the EII is on my side.

I'm planning to move them off the customer list. No one needs the aggravation. We'll find more money somewhere else.

[Minde]

Whew. I see.

My EII financial manager told me that she doesn't like the way one of our main customers does business. I asked her what it was about them that she didn't like, and her response was much like yours.

Fortunately, when she gets pissed off at their not paying their bills, she goes after them. Like Mike Tyson.

One of Tyson's opponents once said that Tyson fights like you stole something from him. I'm glad the EII is on my side.

I'm planning to move them off the customer list. No one needs the aggravation. We'll find more money somewhere else.

I hate bullies. I have concrete proof we are not a standalone incident. Treating people badly needs to have consequences, even if it comes in a roundabout way (like losing contracts).

Your EII has spotted a cancer in the world. A blight. Just keep her from burning herself out in the crusade. Or, fire them so the crusade doesn't need to happen. (You seem to be on the right track.)

[Adam Strange]

I hate bullies. I have concrete proof we are not a standalone incident. Treating people badly needs to have consequences, even if it comes in a roundabout way (like losing contracts).

Your EII has spotted a cancer in the world. A blight. Just keep her from burning herself out in the crusade. Or, fire them so the crusade doesn't need to happen. (You seem to be on the right track.)

They once provided about 80% of the company’s income, but have been really flakey recently. I need her a lot more than I need them. She’s absolutely irreplaceable.

Now all I need to do is to find a replacement for their business.

[Minde]

They once provided about 80% of the company’s income, but have been really flakey recently. I need her a lot more than I need them. She’s absolutely irreplaceable.

Now all I need to do is to find a replacement for their business.

You'll figure it out. I believe in you.


The thing about when EIIs get mad is that their Se goes flailing. So you following through on her Fi directions (which already fits with your general programming) and then moving her and yourself out of the situation seems a good compromise. With an ESI, it might be a different path because they'd have a better idea of the types and amounts of pressure to apply.


Anyway, this thread is about Ukraine, etc. You might be able to guess my opinion of Putin.

[xerx]

The Russian air force is really messing up. Prior to the Ukrainian capture of Vysokopillya, Russian aviation was diverted. And prior to Ukraine's capture of Balakliya, Russian aviation attacked the Ukrainians from a distance, making their attacks less effective.

Military analysts will have their hands full in dissecting this war's incessant barrage of incompetence & operational blunders.

[Adam Strange]

The Russian air force is really messing up. Prior to the Ukrainian capture of Vysokopillya, Russian aviation was diverted. And prior to Ukraine's capture of Balakliya, Russian aviation attacked the Ukrainians from a distance, making their attacks less effective.

Military analysts will have their hands full in dissecting this war's incessant barrage of incompetence & operational blunders.

This is why liberal democracies have replaced authoritarian monarchies in most of the world. Top-down management doesn't work very well in dynamic situations.

And that says nothing about how talent gets squashed in authoritarian regimes.

[Metamorph]

The one thing I can't stand about this thread is no one seems to be looking for a big picture. Metanarratives are not dead.

[xerx]

Woops, I posted this earlier but accidentally deleted it. Here it is again:

This is why liberal democracies have replaced authoritarian monarchies in most of the world. Top-down management doesn't work very well in dynamic situations.

And that says nothing about how talent gets squashed in authoritarian regimes.

Yeah, there's plenty of that, but the Ukrainian Army is also legitimately pretty good, and it has been since before the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Today's Ukrainian army is being trained and equipped by NATO, and the real story is about a middle power (Russia) going toe-to-toe, and often-times succeeding, against a well-defended NATO proxy.

But Russia does indeed need democratic reform, I'll give it that.

Russia is being reformed in at least one other way, though, as a result of Western sanctions: it's being forced to reindustrialize, however sketchily. If this war inspires a wider reevaluation of globalization, the need for self-sufficiency and home-grown industry, and a role for state-driven investment and dirigisme, then there's at least a silver lining.

As for what's left of Ukraine, my sense is that it'll get loans in exchange for privatising its public assets — assets that will be carpetbagged by Western banks and firms. No Marshall plan this time; just the creation of a Slavic Argentina.

[Adam Strange]

In Russia, it's always 1984.

"The Kremlin's top propagandists pretend that Russia begged for the West not to start this war (which Russia started after every Western leader urged Putin not to invade Ukraine). It's quite surreal when they assert that Russia is fighting for peace."

The video: https://nitter.net/JuliaDavisNews/st...151162716162#m

[xerx]

In Russia, it's always 1984.

The nice thing about social media is that the Kremlin can't contradict famous Russian milbloggers. Those guys do report losses.

[Adam Strange]

Russia in a nutshell:

https://nitter.net/RussiaBurning/sta...853538672640#m

[Shevchenko]

Russia in a nutshell:

https://nitter.net/RussiaBurning/sta...853538672640#m

You post a video on a public forum where a person is burned alive, because of his stupidity. And signing with such a message. What kind of reaction do you expect?


Why are you trying to dehumanize an entire nation just because you're easily brainwashed by your echo chamber and think people's deaths should be celebrated?
The herd you belong to is one of the reasons why such conflicts arise. In Ukraine, many people are polarized - on the one hand, people see all the positives of America, and on the other - they can't accept the other part of people with immoral anti-human thinking like yours. And the problem is even sadder because for many Ukrainians it is clear that there are universal human laws, even despite the aggression and all the horror that is happening here. Still, for a random person from another continent, this is not clear.

[Adam Strange]

You post a video on a public forum where a person is burned alive, because of his stupidity. And signing with such a message. What kind of reaction do you expect?


Why are you trying to dehumanize an entire nation just because you're easily brainwashed by your echo chamber and think people's deaths should be celebrated?
The herd you belong to is one of the reasons why such conflicts arise. In Ukraine, many people are polarized - on the one hand, all the positives of America, on the other - people with immoral anti-human thinking like yours. And the problem is even sadder because for many Ukrainians it is clear that there are universal human laws, even despite the aggression and all the horror that is happening here. Still, for a random person from another continent, this is not clear.

@Shevchenko, I don’t believe that there are universal human laws, other than perhaps a fear of falling. Why else would we see, again and again, that when Russians leave an area, what remains is a crime scene?

No individual is immune to falling into a state of abusive disregard for their fellow human beings. Not Russians, not Americans, no one.

It is for this reason that we point out bad behavior and condemn it. There is nothing worse than a child who has grown into an adult but has not learned to control his impulses. It is the job of the child’s parents, family, community, and nation to train the child to be a good, caring person. Some people do that better than other people. Some nations do this better than others.

They say that an army is no better than the society that formed it, and I agree with that.

Given the behavior of the Ukrainian army and the Russian army, what would you conclude about the respective societies?

What? Tell us.

You may feel that an authoritarian society which values only money, power, and control is fine. You may feel that a society in which blackmail, murder, and imprisonment for false crimes is fine. You may feel that your Russian society is the best, made of the best race in the world, while simultaneously being feared and despised by your neighbors and your own subjects (I will not call them citizens.)

But I do not.

[Adam Strange]

When I was about eleven years old, I learned that there had been a thousand-year period in human history that was called “the Middle Ages”.

As far as I could tell, it was characterized by kings with absolute authority to do whatever they wanted, an enforcer class of armed knights, a religious class which told the population that their situation was the best one that could ever exist, and the rest of society which was the victims of this system, living without rights and without agency. And it lasted for a thousand years.

It scared the shit out of me, perhaps because it mirrored my home life.

I immediately started looking at the reasons this very common system of human exploitation existed, and why it ended.

What killed it were resource wars, and the societies which made the transition to Democratic capitalism did so because winning a war is not like a masturbatory fantasy, but rather depends on coordinated, planned, and resourceful actions by individuals. These kinds of people are not developed in mafia-like dictatorships because they are threats to a power structure which benefits only those in power.

Today, most societies are moving towards liberal democracy with moderated capitalism because this kind of society builds the strongest individuals, and they combine to form strong societies which know what they are fighting for.

Today, there are only a few of these Middle Ages monstrosities left in the world. China, Russia, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and a few more are all that are left. And their subjects would be happy to see them go, if they were allowed to see how advanced societies value and develop the people whom they govern, by the permission of the governed.

[Adam Strange]

I was looking for the thread which asked, “What behaviors do you hate?”, but I couldn’t find it, so I’ll state here what I hate.

I hate people who piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.

[Shevchenko]

You may feel that an authoritarian society which values only money, power, and control is fine. You may feel that a society in which blackmail, murder, and imprisonment for false crimes is fine. You may feel that your Russian society is the best, made of the best race in the world, while simultaneously being feared and despised by your neighbors and your own subjects (I will not call them citizens.)

After that, don't try to prove that you are not brainwashed or narrow-minded. I have not given a single reason to think so of myself.


The lack of morality and the mindset that you have demonstrated is the root cause of the problems of the post-Soviet countries.
The communists came and replaced the Christian morality with the communist one. Plus the standards of hard work have dropped. Then the liberals came and abolished communist morality. Anarcho-capitalism came along in the 90s and it failed badly because there was no moral framework. Because of what a quarter of the population died out and the country almost collapsed. As an obvious result, a benevolent dictator came to power.
Ukraine cannot afford to behave like Russia, because it is directly dependent on countries that still have these moral standards. And Russia is guided by thinking like yours - no human morality, only complete subjectivism, the winners are not judged.

[Adam Strange]

After that, don't try to prove that you are not brainwashed or narrow-minded. I have not given a single reason to think so of myself.


The lack of morality and the mindset that you have demonstrated is the root cause of the problems of the post-Soviet countries.
The communists came and replaced the Christian morality with the communist one. Plus the standards of hard work have dropped. Then the liberals came and abolished communist morality. Anarcho-capitalism came along in the 90s and it failed badly because there was no moral framework. Because of what a quarter of the population died out and the country almost collapsed. As an obvious result, a benevolent dictator came to power.
Ukraine cannot afford to behave like Russia, because it is directly dependent on countries that still have these moral standards. And Russia is guided by thinking like yours - no human morality, only complete subjectivism, the winners are not judged.

How is your "benevolent dictator" working out for you? I mean, for you, because you don't seem to care how he's working out for the Ukrainians.

[Adam Strange]

After that, don't try to prove that you are not brainwashed or narrow-minded. I have not given a single reason to think so of myself.


The lack of morality and the mindset that you have demonstrated is the root cause of the problems of the post-Soviet countries.
The communists came and replaced the Christian morality with the communist one. Plus the standards of hard work have dropped. Then the liberals came and abolished communist morality. Anarcho-capitalism came along in the 90s and it failed badly because there was no moral framework. Because of what a quarter of the population died out and the country almost collapsed. As an obvious result, a benevolent dictator came to power.
Ukraine cannot afford to behave like Russia, because it is directly dependent on countries that still have these moral standards. And Russia is guided by thinking like yours - no human morality, only complete subjectivism, the winners are not judged.

OK, @Shevchenko, I read your post five times to try to understand what you are trying to say, and I'd say that we are talking at cross-purposes.

I'm saying that the form which society takes will shape an individual's behavior, and what I think you are saying is that Russia is suffering from a lack of strong, Christian morals.

Am I understanding you correctly?

If so, your view is backwards. Morality, other than a sense of fairness (which even chimpanzees have), isn't something that is inherent in people. It is learned. When a society is built which favors just a few individuals and they don't answer to anyone, then you get some pretty bad behavior, which the powers-that-be will tell you is perfectly moral. I refer you to King Leopold II of Belgium, who was a benevolent king in Belgium where his power was restricted by the government, and his barbaric behavior in the Congo, where there were no restrictions on his behavior.

Non-democratic societies are not only a danger to other states and to their own citizens, but they lower the level of morality in the world.

The best way to establish a society which has a morality in which individual rights are respected is to equalize the power in that society by equalizing the wealth. Tax the rich, give the money to the poor, whether they "deserve" it or not.

I notice that Putin seems to have a yacht, bigger than the country's broken aircraft carrier, while Zelenski probably doesn't own a car. Does that tell you anything about what their morals might be?
Why are people drinking themselves to death in Russia? Is it because nothing they do matters?
And why are Ukrainians joining their army? Is is because they are willing to die to take a stand against the truly fucked up Russian Mir moral values?

Are Russian children any different from Ukrainian children? No, I don't think so. The differences are in the morals that their respective societies teach them.

[Adam Strange]

It isn't easy to raise kids to be good citizens. The easy path is to punish them, or hit them, or to make them feel like shit so they stop doing whatever it is that inconveniences or embarrasses you.

Of course, this only teaches children that it's fine for big people to hit little people, and they start to hate big people and yearn to become one, so they can be on top and do the hitting. I know, because my LSE mother took this approach to child-raising.

While I'm on the subject of LSE bullies, here's one who is channeling my mother's philosophy.

“They won’t understand that we’re serious, until we punch them in the nose.”

https://nitter.net/Prune602/status/1...583773896705#m

Thank god I had an SLI wife who refused to accept that kind of attitude from me, and helped me to see that the results were worth me working harder (because hitting kids was off the table) to teach kids that there are consequences to their bad actions.

I was lucky, rather than being a moral genius. Not everyone is so fortunate.

[Shevchenko]

How is your "benevolent dictator" working out for you? I mean, for you, because you don't seem to care how he's working out for the Ukrainians.

I am Ukrainian.

Thank god I had an SLI wife who refused to accept that kind of attitude from me, and helped me to see that the results were worth me working harder (because hitting kids was off the table) to teach kids that there are consequences to their bad actions.
I was lucky, rather than being a moral genius. Not everyone is so fortunate.

Do you think it's normal to show your child a video where a person burns alive in agony? With comments "So beautiful to se😍".
Today you just ruined my mood for the whole day.

Even though I'm pro-democracy, pro-individualism, and don't favor the left-wing solutions you suggest, dehumanization is just not acceptable to me.
That's exactly what I was talking about.
Some Ukrainians cannot make an unambiguous choice in favor of the West for this reason - moral degradation. Which is becoming the norm.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

I dont think he intends to dehumanize Russians. He criticizes the dictatorship abuse and shows consequences.

[Adam Strange]

I am Ukrainian.



Do you think it's normal to show your child a video where a person burns alive in agony? With comments "So beautiful to se".

@Shevchenko, I wanted to show my son this video, but I haven't gotten around to showing it to him yet. It shows the consequences of drinking and smoking and being stupid. I don't think it is necessary to let everyone find out for themselves the consequences of stupid behavior. You can learn the consequences from watching others.

The guy in the video obviously didn't die on camera, but I do think he's going to die earlier than he would otherwise, because he feels, correctly, that no one cares about him. His behavior is a plea for help, in my amateur psychologist's view. I've seen this many times in my life when I'm around children. They engage in risky behavior to see who will care for them.

For what it's worth, yes, I think the guy in the video is being stupid, and I have a right to say that, because I've done exactly that same kind of thing. I have scars and broken bones and wrecked cars and wrecked relationships and a police record from behavior exactly like what he was doing, done for exactly the same reasons.

A society that doesn't value its citizens should expect this kind of behavior from them.

For some reason, my son has never hurt anyone and has never gotten into trouble. I credit his mother's influence, even though I raised him. But again, I was fortunate that she introduced me to liberal child-raising. My own life is a testament to the problems you encounter when you are taught "morals" by being hit for every minor thing.

Today you just ruined my mood for the whole day.

I'm sorry that your day is ruined. Maybe tomorrow will be accidentally better.

Alternately, you can examine your fundamental beliefs and match them against reality. That goes a long way towards knowing what you can expect during the day.

Even though I'm pro-democracy, pro-individualism, and don't favor the left-wing solutions you suggest, dehumanization is just not acceptable to me.
That's exactly what I was talking about.
Some Ukrainians cannot make an unambiguous choice in favor of the West for this reason - moral degradation. Which is becoming the norm.

Again, you talk of morals. Which morality do you favor, because there are a lot of them?

Here is a link to a website which discusses morals. https://www.yourmorals.org/

I don't particularly agree with the morality of the guy who started that website, but he has some very good information there.

Here is a link to more information on moral differences: https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_h...es?language=en

[Metamorph]

I am Ukrainian.



Do you think it's normal to show your child a video where a person burns alive in agony? With comments "So beautiful to se".
Today you just ruined my mood for the whole day.

Even though I'm pro-democracy, pro-individualism, and don't favor the left-wing solutions you suggest, dehumanization is just not acceptable to me.
That's exactly what I was talking about.
Some Ukrainians cannot make an unambiguous choice in favor of the West for this reason - moral degradation. Which is becoming the norm.

It is sadly the norm in the West too. Well, at least the West seems to be accurate in their claims to treat everyone equally: they murder, rape, and pillage everyone equally, including their own. And what drives them is ressentiment, they murder, rape, and pillage to try to show themselves they're not the lowest out there, because they have had that done to themselves at home first.

[Ave]

I dont think he intends to dehumanize Russians.

Iono, I've been here for the longest time and for as long as I can remember Adam often makes statements that dehumanize his ideological or political opponents, and I've always found such statements disturbing. I don't think he's even aware of doing this.

[Ave]

Do you think it's normal to show your child a video where a person burns alive in agony? With comments "So beautiful to se".
Today you just ruined my mood for the whole day.

Even though I'm pro-democracy, pro-individualism, and don't favor the left-wing solutions you suggest, dehumanization is just not acceptable to me.
That's exactly what I was talking about.
Some Ukrainians cannot make an unambiguous choice in favor of the West for this reason - moral degradation. Which is becoming the norm.

I often hear Americans talk in a way that dehumanizes other groups of people they are ideologically opposed to, and both left and right wing Americans do this. I lived in America during my youth (moved back to Europe 20 years ago) and I found this to have already been the norm. You can degrade, as long as it's acceptable to broadcast it on tv.

I don't find this to be common or the norm in Western or Northern Europe though.

[Metamorph]

Iono, I've been here for the longest time and for as long as I can remember Adam often makes statements that dehumanize his ideological or political opponents, and I've always found such statements disturbing. I don't think he's even aware of doing this.

Shevchenko attributes this as being typical of the West more generally and I would agree. Typical, not universal. The West eats its own, too.

I often hear Americans talk in a way that dehumanizes other groups of people they are ideologically opposed to, and both left and right wing Americans do this. I lived in America during my youth (moved back to Europe 20 years ago) and I found this to have already been the norm. You can degrade, as long as it's acceptable to broadcast it on tv.

I don't find this to be common or the norm in Western or Northern Europe though.

Being forced to watch American Sniper when trying to get a job shocked me. It treated the Iraqis as not people. It also treated the Americans as not people. All the Iraqis could do was talk about things that sounded superficially religious, and all the Americans could do was talk about Zales and Punisher and tattoos and forcing the "savages" to be free. One Iraqi guy put a drill in a little boy's head, but Chris Kyle shot dozes of boys. Then someone shot him. Why wouldn't someone with no impulse control shoot him? I wanted to shoot him.

All the Europeans on the other hand I've met were super nice even if they might have had their flaws. Americans are what they think Nazis are. Well, the Nazis really just copied Americans in the first place.

[godslave]

I think that for Some people dehumanization is an extreme unconscious process which can takes place in life or death situations. I think It might be an alternative state the brain puts you in, a consequence of a survival mechanism. I think It might be linked to the "Fight" mode of the "Freeze, Flight, Fight" response to threat. There are no tergiversations allowed or moral/ethics considerations in those kind of situations. In those extremes, the threat can be perceived as an "object" even if it's a human beings. In war, the uniform of the enemy, its color, is enough to trigger that mechanism. Although some people have no problem to do it and thus don't suffer any psychological consequences, most people will suffer PTSD like kind of trauma. "Insanity" is the price to pay for having done horrible things to fellow human beings because a horrible situation activated an unconscious defence mechanism.

History is full of cases of war veterans going completely insane to the point of taking their own life because of this. Things which have been done with only a fraction of seconds to decide i.e. in the moment, can haunt you for the rest of your life. War is the mother of all pains.
Is this a "Freewill" question or is it a reality of the human condition ? I don't know.

[Adam Strange]

Drones are important to this and to future wars, but not nearly as important as soldiers who are fighting for what they believe in.

[Metamorph]

Drones are important to this and to future wars, but not nearly as important as soldiers who are fighting for what they believe in.

Fortunately, there are many people who believe in money and lots of money to go around to the ones who don't die.

[Metamorph]

I think that for Some people dehumanization is an extreme unconscious process which can takes place in life or death situations. I think It might be an alternative state the brain puts you in, a consequence of a survival mechanism. I think It might be linked to the "Fight" mode of the "Freeze, Flight, Fight" response to threat. There are no tergiversations allowed or moral/ethics considerations in those kind of situations. In those extremes, the threat can be perceived as an "object" even if it's a human beings. In war, the uniform of the enemy, its color, is enough to trigger that mechanism. Although some people have no problem to do it and thus don't suffer any psychological consequences, most people will suffer PTSD like kind of trauma. "Insanity" is the price to pay for having done horrible things to fellow human beings because a horrible situation activated an unconscious defence mechanism.

History is full of cases of war veterans going completely insane to the point of taking their own life because of this. Things which have been done with only a fraction of seconds to decide i.e. in the moment, can haunt you for the rest of your life. War is the mother of all pains.
Is this a "Freewill" question or is it a reality of the human condition ? I don't know.

Seems like ressentiment to me. "I got hurt so I'm going to hurt you worse to prove my superiority!"

I still can't believe anyone likes movies like American Sniper and Megan Leavey. At least your media shouldn't flatter your broken psyche. The worst thing about those is they portray no one as having any kind of desires or needs or relationships, they make everyone into a bunch of stereotypes. So just as the Iraqis and Afghans are the "terrorist Muslim savages in the new Wild West" the Americans are the "God-fearing, dog-loving, Zales-shopping, pork-eating crusader." While movies are not as good as books with characterization they don't all make their main characters into cardboard stereotypes enacting wanton violence against other cardboard stereotypes.