Adventures in Dating

[Adam Strange]

LIE to lesbian ESI interior decorator, who is also helping him with his life: I found an ESI on Match.com, and I want you to be my Cyrano to her Roxanne.
ESI: What are you talking about?
LIE: I want you to write an intro for me, because I always say exactly what I'm thinking, and I'm afraid that I'll come off as a rapist or an axe-murderer when I first contact her.
ESI: You're not a rapist. That's bad. You're....just....aggressive.
LIE: Yes. Aggressive. That's what every GF has ever said about me.
ESI: Don't say rapist.
LIE: Look, I like sex.
ESI just stares at me: OK, let's get to this. Show me her Match post.

LIE calls up the ESI post on his computer.

ESI: She's pretty. I approve. Hey, her pictures show that she likes adventuring!
LIE: She's a nesting model (Fi), not a sports model (Se) like you, but she's still an ESI. She probably likes to challenge herself all the time. Maybe more than me.
ESI: You challenge yourself. You're always doing something, all the time, to improve your life.
LIE marvels at the way ESIs interpret what I do to avoid terminal boredom.
ESI goes straight for the "Start the Conversation" box.

LIE: NO no no. Let's type this out in Word first. Just to avoid accidents.
ESI: OK. I'll compose, you type. (She has trouble with reading and typing, but not with anything else.) ESI starts to dictate and LIE transcribes.

LIE, reflectively: You know, I'm not sure that I want to get married again. I mean, I'd get married to a woman who could have kids, but this woman is past that point.

ESI continues to dictate, with frequent back edits and super bad grammar.

LIE: Plus, she's not that hot. She looks like my best friend in high school, and he was a guy. That's going to be a problem for me. A big problem.

ESI seems to not be listening to the LIE and is now reading out loud what the LIE wrote, to see how it sounds. Does it flow the way she wants it to flow? Her speech, which she is replicating, has atrocious grammar violations, but is pure ESI, and this is actually what I want. My experience with talking to ESIs over text is that Duality is nowhere in sight in text conversations and LIEs sound like aliens to ESIs. This is exactly why I'm having her write the introduction. The target ESI will read it in an ESI's voice and will think I'm normal. Normal to her.
It's a lot like hunting ducks with decoys. Plus, the ESI interior decorator sees virtues in me which I don't see in myself. Virtues that all ESIs see.

LIE: Yeah, I'm worried that she's not as hot as a sports model ESI like yourself, and I won't be able to get excited over her.
Have I mentioned that the ESI interior decorator is smart, slender, admirably toned and beautiful? It is a world-class travesty that she only sleeps with women, but there is nothing I can do about that.
ESI continues to thoughtfully rearrange furniture to get everything perfect from her perspective.

LIE: I just hope she's good at blowjobs.

ESI freezes. Whatever she was thinking is completely out of her head, replaced by something else. She pauses and tries to pretend that she's not pausing. Maybe she's thinking that I'm an astounding asshole but she's still on my side. Maybe she's blowjob-curious, despite being a lesbian. I have no idea what she's thinking. Then she gets it together and says
ESI: OK, how does this sound?

Hi Roxanne,
My name is Adam, it’s great to meet you. The adventure and relationship intimacy that you expressed wanting drew me to your profile, and of course, your good looks too.

People say that I am a nerdy engineer who loves connecting with people and traveling to new places, and chasing solar eclipses.

I am currently focused on creating a chapter in my life that prioritizes health, growth, and having fun with people whom I like.

If you are interested, I would like to take you out on a date.

Would you be interested in a casual hike, followed by a meal together? I’d be happy to come in your direction, or find a hike in my neck of the woods, Ann Arbor.

It sounds horrible and great at the same time, just like a wooden duck, floating on a pond.

We'll have to wait and see if it attracts any real ducks.

Match.com reported that, in response to my outreach above, the ESI in question looked at my profile three days ago, and chose not to respond to me.



It is so hard to find a person who meshes well with me. I can put forth what I think is my best effort and it completely misses the target, while I get inquiries all the time from women whom I don't want to know.

My track record in finding a suitable ESI is not good, and it doesn't help to know that at least half the fault has to be with me. Well, maybe most of the fault is with me. It's hard for me to know whether I'm high-value and particular, or if I'm just too screwed up in ways that I can't see, to be attractive to normal women.

Oh, well.

[Northstar]

Match.com reported that, in response to my outreach above, the ESI in question looked at my profile three days ago, and chose not to respond to me.



It is so hard to find a person who meshes well with me. I can put forth what I think is my best effort and it completely misses the target, while I get inquiries all the time from women whom I don't want to know.

My track record in finding a suitable ESI is not good, and it doesn't help to know that at least half the fault has to be with me. Well, maybe most of the fault is with me. It's hard for me to know whether I'm high-value and particular, or if I'm just too screwed up in ways that I can't see, to be attractive to normal women.

Oh, well.

Maybe she just took a look at you and decided no. What it says in a profile or in a message only starts to matter if you pass the visual.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

i find dating and socializing often has the same issue of limited information exchange. you can end up wasting ur time on the wrong person, or u can pass by the right one bc u make the wrong assumptions based on limited information that u just scroll past.

astronomy and optics expert
not perfect, not a narcissist, but raised by one
actually successful entrepreneur and CEO
avid reader
story teller
psychology and personality types research. LIE-Te (thats like ENTJ but can be like other types ) looking for ESI-Fi (thats like ISFP/J but can be other types)
thick wallet, tons of sex and big cocc
adventurous
robot needs love
actually warm inside
workaholic (is an issue)
i give head i take head

LF woman who: takes me away from work
tons of 53x
gives head
helps me get rid of excessive or superfluous items (dont get discouraged if you dont know if its ur strength)
aesthete (appreciated but not a required)
adventurouse
preferably my age

**emphasis on principles < i wonder if ESIs can care about that in particular or see it as cringe i can see both, maybe more mature ones can value it. what would an ESI-Fi have suffered or felt dissatisfied by, that you make up for but dont mention?

what if ur kind of intimidating.

wow just as im typing this an ESI texts me to meet. to be continued if ever.

edit: i wish everything was said more eloquently but yah i have brain issueis why doesnt someone with more ease of access to a sophisticated and concise vocabulary help out

[Adam Strange]

i find dating and socializing often has the same issue of limited information exchange. you can end up wasting ur time on the wrong person, or u can pass by the right one bc u make the wrong assumptions based on limited information that u just scroll past.

astronomy and optics expert
not a narcissist
avid reader
personality types research. LIE-Te looking for ESI-Fi
thick wallet, tons of sex and big cock
adventurous
**emphasis on principles < i wonder if ESIs can care about that in particular or see it as cringe i can see both, maybe more mature ones can value it. what would an ESI-Fi have suffered or felt dissatisfied by, that you make up for but dont mention?

what if ur kind of intimidating.

wow just as im typing this an ESI texts me to meet. to be continued if ever.

Thanks, Vewy. I'm keeping most of this, for future use.

[VewyScawwyNawcissist]

Thanks, Vewy. I'm keeping most of this, for future use.

update notification

[Echo]

Match.com reported that, in response to my outreach above, the ESI in question looked at my profile three days ago, and chose not to respond to me.



It is so hard to find a person who meshes well with me. I can put forth what I think is my best effort and it completely misses the target, while I get inquiries all the time from women whom I don't want to know.

My track record in finding a suitable ESI is not good, and it doesn't help to know that at least half the fault has to be with me. Well, maybe most of the fault is with me. It's hard for me to know whether I'm high-value and particular, or if I'm just too screwed up in ways that I can't see, to be attractive to normal women.

Oh, well.

She may also have started seeing someone else but it’s still early days so she hasn’t deleted her profile yet. You never know. I’ve had tons of ignored messages like that. Online dating is obligatorily horrible for everyone involved, and it is designed to be that way. Ultimately, the more stable, long term monogamous relationships that people form, the less money the app makes, because it lowers their active user base. Remember how apps used to let you search by keywords and you would get a long list of matches that you could look through at once? Now they are all swipe decks, which encourages you to match with people based on looks, not based on mutual interests or emotional compatibility. It’s revolving door dating. They don’t really give you any sort of meaningful ways to find people with much in common, so relationships don’t last that long. You see the same profiles pop up every 2 to 3 months. Match group was actually the target of a class action lawsuit because of this: https://www.npr.org/2024/02/14/12315...-group-lawsuit Pardon the tangent into shop talk, I’m a service designer so this is what I do for a living.

[Echo]

I’ve liked or matched with a few duals and not gotten responses. I’m actually convinced that dating apps are the worst medium for meeting a dual, because they force you to make a snap judgment. But duals are the kind of people whose attraction sneaks up on you. They usually fall into the ‘not my type category’ at first glance.

[CrazyClock]

I said to my wife wow I look rough to which she agreed and told me it was a natural part of getting older and I was playing that foolish and dangerous game where you kind of fish for compliments hoping that my wife would say something along the lines of "don't be silly of course you look good!" But alas that did not happen...

[Martex]

I recently tried online dating https://hitwe.com/asian/chinese-brides/ and decided to be open to new experiences. I matched with someone who seemed interesting, and we hit it off right away. We had amazing conversations and found so many shared interests. After a few weeks, we decided to meet in person, and it was even better than I imagined. We’ve been inseparable ever since and continue to grow closer every day. This experience taught me the importance of stepping out of my comfort zone. Sometimes, the best things happen when you least expect them!

[Tallmo]

So the LII went away for a few days to visit her parents. Then she texted me and said she was back. We decided to meet on Sunday. We went to a museum and it was fun to walk around and talk about the pictures. We were at the museum for two hours. I decided to speak Swedish with her for the first time. (We have different mother tongues, her is Finnish, mine is Swedish, so this creates an extra dimension to our interaction.) Afterwards we went to a coffee shop and talked about films and books we have read. It was really nice. We decided to meet the next day and have a picnic.

I made a salad and bought some bread and stuff. The preparations were surprisingly time consuming. I had high expectations, too high. After work we met in downtown and went to a park, found a nice place and sat down. I noticed that the nice atmosphere from yesterday was gone, although the mood wasn't bad at all, but just strangely distant. She talks a lot but she can be incredibly matter-of-fact and analytical. I felt kindof helpless but we chatted about this and that for an hour or so until it got too cold and we had to leave. There's no shortage of things to talk about, she gladly takes the initiative to come up with things to say, but I was not feeling well, things just felt too dry and I didn't know what to do about it. Anyway, we said good-bye and I kissed her awkwardly on the cheek. I could see a glimpse of her feeling-function, she suddenly looked like a teenage ESE "OMG, that's soooo awkward". It's like a totally different personality, it's pretty amazing, and beautiful in it's own way to see the inferior function like that.

I felt discouraged and headed home. I must have been very distracted because on my way home I visited a public toilet and forgot my phone there. Couldn't get back in to get it, because to open the door you need - a phone. So I thought for awhile what to do and then went home to get my wallet so I could open the door by paying cash. Got back to the public toilet, opened the door and found my phone. I realized I'd have to call her. Felt like things had been building up and I needed to make a move to clean the air. I got home and after collecting some courage I called her. She answered in a good mood and said she had been talking to a friend and they were going on a picnic the next day and she was now applying the experiences from today. I laughed yes, you can use me as a test person. That was fun. I said I think we need to talk and asked how she felt about our dating so far. (4 dates). She said it's nice talking to me and we are similar and different at the same time. I told her I felt a little confused because sometimes I feel we have a connection and sometimes not. She asked if I mean having similar interests. I said, not really and tried to explain what I meant. It was a very short call. We decided to meet at the end of the week face-to-face and talk more.

Today I'm feeling good. I'm so happy I called her and finally broke the ice. Let's see what happens. I'm just going to follow this as far as I can. I'm ok with this, feels like I'm alive and learning She is very sensitive, but I think she sometimes hides her sensitivity too much.

[timber]

All you daters.

Here I am spending 40 degree c summer afternoons going to the river by myself.

[Echo]

So the LII went away for a few days to visit her parents. Then she texted me and said she was back. We decided to meet on Sunday. We went to a museum and it was fun to walk around and talk about the pictures. We were at the museum for two hours. I decided to speak Swedish with her for the first time. (We have different mother tongues, her is Finnish, mine is Swedish, so this creates an extra dimension to our interaction.) Afterwards we went to a coffee shop and talked about films and books we have read. It was really nice. We decided to meet the next day and have a picnic.

I made a salad and bought some bread and stuff. The preparations were surprisingly time consuming. I had high expectations, too high. After work we met in downtown and went to a park, found a nice place and sat down. I noticed that the nice atmosphere from yesterday was gone, although the mood wasn't bad at all, but just strangely distant. She talks a lot but she can be incredibly matter-of-fact and analytical. I felt kindof helpless but we chatted about this and that for an hour or so until it got too cold and we had to leave. There's no shortage of things to talk about, she gladly takes the initiative to come up with things to say, but I was not feeling well, things just felt too dry and I didn't know what to do about it. Anyway, we said good-bye and I kissed her awkwardly on the cheek. I could see a glimpse of her feeling-function, she suddenly looked like a teenage ESE "OMG, that's soooo awkward". It's like a totally different personality, it's pretty amazing, and beautiful in it's own way to see the inferior function like that.

I felt discouraged and headed home. I must have been very distracted because on my way home I visited a public toilet and forgot my phone there. Couldn't get back in to get it, because to open the door you need - a phone. So I thought for awhile what to do and then went home to get my wallet so I could open the door by paying cash. Got back to the public toilet, opened the door and found my phone. I realized I'd have to call her. Felt like things had been building up and I needed to make a move to clean the air. I got home and after collecting some courage I called her. She answered in a good mood and said she had been talking to a friend and they were going on a picnic the next day and she was now applying the experiences from today. I laughed yes, you can use me as a test person. That was fun. I said I think we need to talk and asked how she felt about our dating so far. (4 dates). She said it's nice talking to me and we are similar and different at the same time. I told her I felt a little confused because sometimes I feel we have a connection and sometimes not. She asked if I mean having similar interests. I said, not really and tried to explain what I meant. It was a very short call. We decided to meet at the end of the week face-to-face and talk more.

Today I'm feeling good. I'm so happy I called her and finally broke the ice. Let's see what happens. I'm just going to follow this as far as I can. I'm ok with this, feels like I'm alive and learning She is very sensitive, but I think she sometimes hides her sensitivity too much.

Yeah we can seem like we run hot and cold quite a bit. The thing is when something is bothering me I have absolutely no ability to hide it- sometimes I'm not even sure what it is that's even bothering me in the first place (it takes a lot of energy to analyze my emotions). But last year I went on a first date with a guy right after I had a big fight with my sister and it was obvious he could pick up on it because he kept asking me if everything was alright. Generally though it's easy to get us out of a funk by making us laugh. Telling a joke almost always works. Or just generally being smiley and upbeat helps.
I'm really glad things are going well with her! Good luck!

[Tallmo]

I'm really glad things are going well with her! Good luck!

I'm not so sure that things are going well but thanks anyway. Yes, I will need some good luck to make this work. Thanks for the advice, I'll reply later.

[Echo]

I'm not so sure that things are going well but thanks anyway. Yes, I will need some good luck to make this work. Thanks for the advice, I'll reply later.

You got another date so it's definitely going well in her eyes. We don't invest time in people unless we are seriously interested

[Tallmo]

Met the LII again. I have a better picture of the situation now.

During our first dates I didn't really know what she is like. What are temporary moods, what is permanent?

I was worried during the week that I might have said something wrong to her. I hinted at us being quite different, I just had to say something because we felt very distant during our picnic, and I didn't know what to do. During the week when I didn't see her my Ne has also been playing tricks on me and I've already pictured us married with a rosy future.

We met again yesterday. I took her hand and just told her that I didn't mean anything bad or so. Then we went for a walk and talked about this and that. BUT, she has definitely some issues. She can talk about almost anything, but she doesn't connect to me. I notice immediately that I become drained, and have to make an effort to focus. She has some kind of mental blocking that affects the atmosphere. We walked for awhile down to the harbor, and I held her hand almost all the time. It started to rain and we walked under the same umbrella. She doesn't respond much to physical contact, but she likes hugging, I think. I felt that we finally needed to kiss, it was already the 5th date, and it's not good to wait too long. As we were walking I was scanning the environment for a place to sit down, but the benches were all wet after the rain. Then on our way back I saw a dry spot and it was time to have a rest anyway after all the walking. We sat down, rested for awhile and then we finally kissed.

I think it's too early to confront her, but at some point I will need to do it. It has to be genuine and done from a genuine need to connect with her. Otherwise it won't work. She has told me she wants to settle down so I think she wants to take it slow to let things develop, but I'm wondering if she is aware of her issues and how it affects other people. I don't know how good I am at making a woman open up to me, but I guess I will find out.

[Echo]

Hmmm… this does sound a bit different from my experience. The SEI I dated Never really had any problem Regulating the emotional atmosphere, But I have a feeling there are different subtypes at play. @maresnest, You’re also a female LII. What’s your take?

[Tallmo]

Hmmm… this does sound a bit different from my experience. The SEI I dated Never really had any problem Regulating the emotional atmosphere, But I have a feeling there are different subtypes at play. @maresnest, You’re also a female LII. What’s your take?

This is not just about types. She is forcing me into a narrow mental space, if I dont watch myself. Probably some underlying issues not dealt with because of weak feeling function. Anyway, I like her and can see glimpses of her sensitivity.

[Echo]

This is not just about types. She is forcing me into a narrow mental space, if I dont watch myself. Probably some underlying issues not dealt with because of weak feeling function. Anyway, I like her and can see glimpses of her sensitivity.

Have you observed her interacting with other people? has she told you any stories about her other interactions (perhaps with friends)?

[Adam Strange]

This is not just about types. She is forcing me into a narrow mental space, if I dont watch myself. Probably some underlying issues not dealt with because of weak feeling function. Anyway, I like her and can see glimpses of her sensitivity.

When you are dating a person, it is hard to separate their characteristics due to type from those due to psychological health issues, especially if you don't have a bunch of experience with both.

I know a few female LIIs (my sister is one, and I've worked with another for many years), and what LIIs seem to be attracted to most is the active, open, carefree attitude that some ESEs exhibit.

My LII sister told me that, when this one guy and his buddy came into the grocery store where she was working, and they started dancing to the Muzak over the speakers in the store, she decided right then and there that that guy was the one for her. And she got him. He divorced his wife and left his kids to marry her. Unfortunately, he's an LSE, not an ESE, and they aren't on the best terms now. As in, not on the best terms. He doesn't do what she naturally expects him to do, is the problem. And he's not going to change himself to conform to her idea of whom he should be.

"I just could not be who she wanted me to be." - Bob Dylan

It just goes to show that there's many a slip, 'twixt the cup and the lip.


"She is forcing me into a narrow mental space"

She should be opening up possibilities in your life for you, just by being herself.

Personally, I find it easiest for me to be completely myself with my Duals, and because I like me just the way I am, I'm only dating Duals. On the other hand, I haven't yet married a Dual and I'm fast getting old.

I have met some LII-ESE couples, but neither of the LIIs whom I know are married to ESEs. So even a calculating machine like an LII might not marry a Dual.

[Tallmo]

Have you observed her interacting with other people? has she told you any stories about her other interactions (perhaps with friends)?

She has several friends and also spends time with her neighbors. Lives a social life. She considers herself between extrovert and introvert, and that makes sense because she is an introvert who is social. Likes going to different events, travelling, films etc. Works as a teacher. Has been in several relationships. She is a likable person, slightly nerdy, analytical, good looking. Very obvious Ne when I talk to her. In Gulenko terms probably NC subtype. (between normalizing and creative).

What I notice is that there is a barrier when things go beyond first dates. I've met women like this of many types. Charming in a way, but there is a barrier when you want to actually get to know them and then things dry up.

This is pretty clear to me. She should be married already, both because of her looks, her age and her sociability. So why isn't she? Well, now I know.

She needs a man who has a good sense of self, understanding, persistent and loving.

[Adam Strange]

I have been spending a lot of time (a year, in fact), thinking about why my relationship with the ESI-Fi was so comfortable in most ways (duh, duality) and why I was blindsided by her Dismissive-Avoidant attachment style, which caused the relationship to fail.

Because I'd never before been aware that Dismissive-Avoidant attachment styles existed, I didn't know what to look for. But here, apparently, is what to look for:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AnxiousAtta...ant/?rdt=62491

A Short Dating Guide to Identifying Avoidant Attachment Early from a Former Avoidant

A common question on this subreddit often comes from anxiously attached people who have put large amounts of their time and energy into dating avoidants only to be blindsided with a unilateral and undiscussed breakup: How can I avoid this happening again? What are the early signs?
In my early 20s, I had a fairly severe fearful avoidant attachment and so I am pretty personally familiar with common behaviors of people with intimacy fears. I've been secure for many years now and am currently in a healthy relationship with a fellow secure partner, only after a lot of time spent searching, reflecting, and growing.
So that said, here are some of the strategies I used to filter for secures back when I was in the online dating pool, within one or two dates:

1. Ask new dates about their relationship with their family. This is the number one sign of unhealed attachment issues and is well documented in all research literature. If a date has a very obviously toxic family, it is highly likely they are fearfully avoidant (disorganized strategy to maintain safety). On the flipside, if their parents seem very nice but are overbearing and don't give them space and autonomy, they are likely dismissively avoidant (projects all intimacy as an attempt to control them).
2. Ask about their relationship history. A history of short flings with little breaks in between, situationships, lack of any relationships, an unhealthy attraction to someone unavailable to them, and any other maladaptive relationship dynamics is nearly a sure sign as well. Especially a history of breakups and getting back together or unhealthy levels of current intimate contact with past ex-partners. This shows a desire for some connection, but without the obligation and consistency that actually builds the foundation for true intimacy.
3. Unusual behavior around replying to texts. Avoidants use personal space as a way to regulate their emotions/affect. Because of this, they cannot be available at times they are self-regulating to reply to texts. Most secures I've known, including myself, tend to see texts as casual and easy to reply to quickly. Even to the point secures may struggle to understand why avoidants see texting as so constricting and obligating when it only takes 20 seconds out of their day occasionally.
4. Counterintuitively, you should come on stronger. Avoidant individuals prefer partners that seem disinterested or uninvested early. The feelings of being trapped only begin to show once they realize you are highly interested and are looking for future commitment. Anxious individuals often downplay their attachment anxiety early on and attune their needs to match their partner's. As a secure, when I was dating, most avoidants walked away from me quickly once they saw I was emotionally engaged and expected commitment within 4-6 weeks or so.

As a former fearful avoidant individual, I engaged in all four of these behaviors quite regularly and all of them acted as a barrier to finding a healthy relationship. This includes other minor signs like workaholism, substance abuse, and idealization of independence. It was only once I started taking responsibility for my behaviors and seeking out people who made me feel emotionally uncomfortable and flighty, and stuck with them anyway, that I finally started to heal. And this goes for all attachment styles. Everyone heals on their own terms.
So I do hope anyone in the dating pool with anxious attachment could find this guide useful. And for those of you exiting traumatic relationships, I hope you can at least get some level of catharsis from reading about things you may have personally experienced yourself but couldn't necessarily put words to.

The Gamma ESI-Fi had parents who were both Alphas and let me say that parents in one Quadra have a very hard time validating the feelings of a child in a different Quadra ("Hey, your father and I get along fantastically, so what is wrong with you?"), to say nothing of the difficulties in understanding a child in the opposite quadra, with whom they share NO values.

So, I think her inner life sounded something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xVA18YcjNY

[Tallmo]

When you are dating a person, it is hard to separate their characteristics due to type from those due to psychological health issues, especially if you don't have a bunch of experience with both.

Well, I actually feel that these things contrast each other, making both very clear. I would never spend time with this woman if we didn't have the basic cognitive compatibility of activation. Now that we have it I can stand being with her despite the way she makes me feel. And I see potential, because things might change. And she is sweet.

I know a few female LIIs (my sister is one, and I've worked with another for many years), and what LIIs seem to be attracted to most is the active, open, carefree attitude that some ESEs exhibit.

My LII sister told me that, when this one guy and his buddy came into the grocery store where she was working, and they started dancing to the Muzak over the speakers in the store, she decided right then and there that that guy was the one for her. And she got him. He divorced his wife and left his kids to marry her. Unfortunately, he's an LSE, not an ESE, and they aren't on the best terms now. As in, not on the best terms. He doesn't do what she naturally expects him to do, is the problem. And he's not going to change himself to conform to her idea of whom he should be.

Nice story. Yeah LII-LSE is bad. I've know those couples also.

"She is forcing me into a narrow mental space"

She should be opening up possibilities in your life for you, just by being herself.

Personally, I find it easiest for me to be completely myself with my Duals, and because I like me just the way I am, I'm only dating Duals. On the other hand, I haven't yet married a Dual and I'm fast getting old.

Yes, I know that you talk about duality alot, but I'm also not young anymore and I've been dating for over 20 years and I have also dated ILEs with issues and that was REALLY confusing, because the dual chemistry brought us together very fast but her mental blockings left me very unsatisfied and confused. Type is not everything.

[Adam Strange]

Yes, I know that you talk about duality alot, but I'm also not young anymore and I've been dating for over 20 years and I have also dated ILEs with issues and that was REALLY confusing, because the dual chemistry brought us together very fast but her mental blockings left me very unsatisfied and confused. Type is not everything.

Tallmo, I agree with you. Type is not everything. Type is where I start, but I also need this:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LvPK6Z_v5m0

I've been dating for eight years since my divorce, and to be completely honest, I think I'm getting tired of failing to find a good woman. I mean, I'm getting tired of trying hard and having doors slammed in my face because the woman is not capable of being in a relationship.

Best of luck to you.

Edit:
It is also entirely possible that the fault for my not being in a relationship lies with me. I really can't tell, because I have a hard time seeing myself and my values.

[maresnest]

You got another date so it's definitely going well in her eyes. We don't invest time in people unless we are seriously interested

definitely true.

Met the LII again. I have a better picture of the situation now.

During our first dates I didn't really know what she is like. What are temporary moods, what is permanent?

I was worried during the week that I might have said something wrong to her. I hinted at us being quite different, I just had to say something because we felt very distant during our picnic, and I didn't know what to do. During the week when I didn't see her my Ne has also been playing tricks on me and I've already pictured us married with a rosy future.

We met again yesterday. I took her hand and just told her that I didn't mean anything bad or so. Then we went for a walk and talked about this and that. BUT, she has definitely some issues. She can talk about almost anything, but she doesn't connect to me. I notice immediately that I become drained, and have to make an effort to focus. She has some kind of mental blocking that affects the atmosphere. We walked for awhile down to the harbor, and I held her hand almost all the time. It started to rain and we walked under the same umbrella. She doesn't respond much to physical contact, but she likes hugging, I think. I felt that we finally needed to kiss, it was already the 5th date, and it's not good to wait too long. As we were walking I was scanning the environment for a place to sit down, but the benches were all wet after the rain. Then on our way back I saw a dry spot and it was time to have a rest anyway after all the walking. We sat down, rested for awhile and then we finally kissed.

I think it's too early to confront her, but at some point I will need to do it. It has to be genuine and done from a genuine need to connect with her. Otherwise it won't work. She has told me she wants to settle down so I think she wants to take it slow to let things develop, but I'm wondering if she is aware of her issues and how it affects other people. I don't know how good I am at making a woman open up to me, but I guess I will find out.

i’ll tell you something, @Echo is right, we can run hot and cold inside and for seemingly unapparent reasons. i experience it firsthand and i know i at least seek to get to the bottom of it. “what am i feeling, and why?” because it’s not coming that’s from the immediate environment.
or, rather, something in the environment is the initial stimulus that triggers it, but the change in energy () doesn’t come from that directly—it would be because the state of immediate environment and the actions happening in it (vertical inert vital inert → ) implying hidden relationships over time ().
(probably, i’m guessing) unlike ILE, our mood/internal energy can be low even if our physical needs and wellbeing are met because our it is directly attributable to more immaterial causes.

so hidden/distant conditions are what influence LII’s moods and energy ( → ). as a SEI, you’re probably assuming the opposite, that immediate conditions are what influence people’s mood and energy ( → ). you’re not doing anything wrong, but her mood probably isn’t going to be improved by that alone. theoretically she should respond positively to you making a comfortable environment for her because you like her. at least i know i’d feel loved.

if you do “confront” her make it soft and open, not actually confrontational. i would tactfully tell your impression about her emotional state the last time you saw her, how you felt (just straightforwardly. “i felt worried/sad.” dont use guilt tripping in any way), and if there is anything that’s been bothering her and if so, if she wants to talk. she might not even have known she was coming off like that.

[Tallmo]

Tallmo, I agree with you. Type is not everything. Type is where I start, but I also need this:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LvPK6Z_v5m0

I've been dating for eight years since my divorce, and to be completely honest, I think I'm getting tired of failing to find a good woman. I mean, I'm getting tired of trying hard and having doors slammed in my face because the woman is not capable of being in a relationship.

Best of luck to you.

Edit:
It is also entirely possible that the fault for my not being in a relationship lies with me. I really can't tell, because I have a hard time seeing myself and my values.

Yes, I think the fault is always in oneself, or it's best to have that attitude. Because you can change yourself but not other people or culture in general. If one sees the fault outside oneself "women are this, women are that", then there is always projection involved and one is painting oneself into a corner.

For men in midlife it's always important to start developing more cultural interests. Art, literature, music, culinary interests, good food and wine etc. Just about anything that relates oneself to the finer things in life. Because this will also develop your ability to relate to the feminine. It takes a time investment, but it's an investment in ones soul. Porn is really, really bad and should be avoided. One should at least consider paying for sex instead. Not that I have done it, but one can avoid corrupting ones soul by maybe stretching ones moral standards. I noticed now that I met the LII that I am falling slightly in love with her (not much, just slightly) and this has changed my sexual desires in a more romantic direction. I still have carnal drives, but they are diluted with a "higher" romantic feeling involving not just her, but women in general and life. So sexuality feels now much more like a spectrum. I'm totally uninterested in porn at the moment, despite having watched it occasionally previously.

Just some thoughts that came to mind

[Tallmo]

i’ll tell you something, @Echo is right, we can run hot and cold inside and for seemingly unapparent reasons. i experience it firsthand and i know i at least seek to get to the bottom of it. “what am i feeling, and why?” because it’s not coming that’s from the immediate environment.

I can understand that, and I have a LII friend who has also told me that. In the case of this LII it's not so much about hot/cold but more about not connecting. Staying too much in the conscious side, and not letting the chemistry between us really happen at all or develop. So interaction becomes just words.

or, rather, something in the environment is the initial stimulus that triggers it, but the change in energy () doesn’t come from that directly—it would be because the state of immediate environment and the actions happening in it (vertical inert vital inert → ) implying hidden relationships over time ().
(probably, i’m guessing) unlike ILE, our mood/internal energy can be low even if our physical needs and wellbeing are met because our it is directly attributable to more immaterial causes.

so hidden/distant conditions are what influence LII’s moods and energy ( → ). as a SEI, you’re probably assuming the opposite, that immediate conditions are what influence people’s mood and energy ( → ). you’re not doing anything wrong, but her mood probably isn’t going to be improved by that alone. theoretically she should respond positively to you making a comfortable environment for her because you like her. at least i know i’d feel loved.

That makes sense.

if you do “confront” her make it soft and open, not actually confrontational. i would tactfully tell your impression about her emotional state the last time you saw her, how you felt (just straightforwardly. “i felt worried/sad.” dont use guilt tripping in any way), and if there is anything that’s been bothering her and if so, if she wants to talk. she might not even have known she was coming off like that.

I'm not going to confront her now at all. I'm not even sure what will happen. It's possible I've destroyed this by saying something critical too early. I can't assume anything. But it's important for me that things are physical now so that touch and comfort is involved. Much easier to be together that way. IF we will meet again. I have no idea how she will react when I contact her again (probably tomorrow).

Thanks for you advise.

[Adam Strange]

@Tallmo:
—————————————————————————————————————————————————— —————————————————————————————————————————————————— ————————————————

My LII sister also has trouble connecting emotionally, so this is what she does instead:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Z4qwDVpQFLI

[Still Alive]

@Tallmo:
—————————————————————————————————————————————————— —————————————————————————————————————————————————— ————————————————

My LII sister also has trouble connecting emotionally, so this is what she does instead:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Z4qwDVpQFLI

Your sister gives you a blowjob?

[Adam Strange]

Your sister gives you a blowjob?

Wait. What?

I thought she was tying his shoes for him?

[Darth Cultis]

I'd give myself a blowjob, if I could.

[Muira]

I'd give myself a blowjob, if I could.

Takes a special level of loneliness to say that

[Darth Cultis]

Oh, okay.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

Takes a special level of loneliness to say that

And a special level of fitness to do that

[Echo]

I can understand that, and I have a LII friend who has also told me that. In the case of this LII it's not so much about hot/cold but more about not connecting. Staying too much in the conscious side, and not letting the chemistry between us really happen at all or develop. So interaction becomes just words.



That makes sense.



I'm not going to confront her now at all. I'm not even sure what will happen. It's possible I've destroyed this by saying something critical too early. I can't assume anything. But it's important for me that things are physical now so that touch and comfort is involved. Much easier to be together that way. IF we will meet again. I have no idea how she will react when I contact her again (probably tomorrow).

Thanks for you advise.

Don't forget she's Se PoLR… she probably rarely spends time outside of her own head. Connecting physically will likely be the last thing she's thinking of. First, shell wanna make sure that she can trust you emotionally and can connect with you mentally. For her, physical connection comes at the very end of the ‘getting to know you’ process, And if you try to make things sexual too fast, it’ll likely scare her off (it seems too much like Se). Just relax and make sure she's comfortable… things will get there, and she'll appreciate that you're not pressuring her to go faster than she feels comfortable with

[Tallmo]

Don't forget she's Se PoLR… she probably rarely spends time outside of her own head. Connecting physically will likely be the last thing she's thinking of. First, shell wanna make sure that she can trust you emotionally and can connect with you mentally. For her, physical connection comes at the very end of the ‘getting to know you’ process, And if you try to make things sexual too fast, it’ll likely scare her off (it seems too much like Se). Just relax and make sure she's comfortable… things will get there, and she'll appreciate that you're not pressuring her to go faster than she feels comfortable with

Oh, I'm not trying to make things sexual yet, I'm not like that, and I can clearly see we are not there yet. And I am usually very non-confrontational. I was already afraid that I held her hand a bit too much last time we met. But some innocent touching and kissing is very important because that way I can be more myself and bring my Si into this soup. And she seems to like it. The problem for SEIs is that we can't really show our personality unless there is a sensual aspect to the interaction.

She has often seemed disoriented, like she doesn't know in what direction to walk or how to handle the physical environment. Yes, Se polr.

Thanks for your advise.

[Still Alive]

just some comments as an LII. I might sometimes abruptly change my direction because I forgot where I need to go, but I'm not constantly running around disoriented. My father, who is imo also an LII, remembers even long distances easily and pretty much never gets lost. I would not describe myself as clumsy or unable to handle physical objects.

[Tallmo]

The 6th date with miss LII turned out to be the best date so far.

I texted her on Monday and asked if she wanted to go to an art museum with me after work. She agreed. Before our date I had some time to take a stroll by myself and I was getting really nervous, almost as if it was a first date.

We met at the museum and spent about one hour there. It was a contemporary art exhibition with quite disturbing paintings and sculptures. I kindof liked it but I don't think she did. But we talked a little about the art. I think she saw it as simply off putting, but I found it interesting. Even though she didn't like it, she has a curiosity and an ability to make herself a conception of the exhibition.

We left the museum and made plans on the fly for the rest of the evening. I was hungry, she wanted coffee. So we went to a coffee shop nearby and sat down. She ordered some coffee drink with whipped cream and some cake (a very sweet combination). I had tea and a sandwich. After spending some time there we decided to go for a walk around the lake.

I didn't take her hand. I figured things were going pretty well. It felt more relaxed than before and I didn't want to disturb her. We walked around the lake and came to a hill were there is a beautiful view of the whole lake. We left the main road and found a nice spot where we could be by ourselves.

I stood before her looking at the lake and then I turned around so that I was facing her. I was standing lower so we were almost the same height. The evening sun was shining low directly on us. She was talking about something, about some movie she had seen. I just enjoyed watching her. I felt the tension because we were standing so close together. But it felt fine that way and I didn't make any move to kiss her or anything. She talked for awhile and then became silent. After a few seconds she suddenly took a step forward and kissed me.

We got back to the road and finished our stroll around the lake. Said goodbye and I went home. She had earlier hinted that she'll be busy this week but when I got home she texted me and said that she will be free on Friday. We agreed to meet then. We also agreed that our next date will happen on water or by the water. Maybe going on a boat trip or something like that.

I think I had misinterpreted her earlier. I thought she might have some serious issues, but maybe she was just shy, or something. Or maybe I was shy. Or maybe we just needed some time. We definitely have the ability to connect, and I am looking forward to seeing her again.

She is flexible with her schedule, but I can feel how she allocates time for our dates and prioritizes. Just a LII thing that I am familiar with from other LIIs I know.

By the way, going to a museum is a good place for a date. You can communicate through what you are looking at and can get to know each other that way.

[Adam Strange]

Art is a great means to finding out who you are.

[FreelancePoliceman]

Art is a great means to finding out who you are.

Are you speaking from experience?

[Adam Strange]

Are you speaking from experience?

Yes, absolutely.

I grew up with Delta parents who told me that I wasn't "doing it right", meaning I wasn't doing things the way they would do them. And when you're a kid, you assume that your parents know what is right and wrong.

I married an SLI, who is my Supervisor, which is supposedly #12 on the rank from one to sixteen of the sociotypes that you can get along with, with 1 being the best and 12 being "Do not go there". But I was a wolf raised by ducks, didn't know I was a wolf, and so I married a duck.

The only way you can get along with people who don't share your values is to suppress your values so they don't conflict with those of the other person. So, basically, until my divorce, the person whom I really am was heavily suppressed. And, of course, I hadn't met any other LIEs to know what they are like.

So, when I was contemplating divorce, I had never been "me". I didn't know who I was, really. I started looking at art, because art provokes a foundational response in a person. You might not know who you are, but you can easily know what you like.

The first piece of art that I really wanted to buy was hanging in a gallery. I contacted the artist and she turned out to be an ESI, so I was clearly coming into myself at that point.

Furthermore, the year that I got divorced, my income doubled, because my Supervisor ex-wife was no longer throwing cement blocks in my path. She was out the door, and I was down the road and I wasn't looking back. My income has gone up from there, because I now know who I am, what to expect from people, and whom to avoid.

But art was the way that I first got my little rowboat oriented in the dark and stormy sea.