MGTOW has been gathering steam lately. We should talk about it.
MGTOW
MGTOW has been gathering steam lately. We should talk about it.
I've actually known about it since ~2011, when I used to look for obscure online content, such as Youtube channels with 10 or so subscribers. I left it alone until now but wasn't surprised to see it explode in popularity. The perception of mistrust and suspicion between the sexes, the feeling that everyone is on their own, the perceived lack of importance (of men), and the desire to drop out of society, are all very common.
For what it's worth, certain aspects of it, like the desire for self-sufficiency, being financially independent, and not performing one's traditional gender roles, are all in keeping with the spirit of modern individualism.
Last edited by xerx; 05-19-2021 at 04:05 AM. Reason: slight reword
Well realistically speaking I don't think anybody can really completely 'go their own way.' That way leads to complete death and destruction. I mean- which is inevitable anyway but society is built on the notion of interdependence. Anybody who really 'goes their own way' gets punished completely by the Idea of Justice.
What it really seems to be is hatred and contempt for women that date hot alpha Chads that work in some seedy ghetto bar and not their beta male white-collar engineer ass. So let's confront that thing head on.
This is connected to many things in society. It's a combined aspect of what women naturally like and what the mainstream culture icon says women should like. Things like fifty shades of gray give straight women the false hope that they can have this perfect life with a hot domineering Chad that's also a caring family man underneathe it all and has a 'good heart.' Sometimes it works for some women- but more realistically it really doesn't and they are just hurt. The alternate shadow reality of MEN GOING THEIR OWN way is women never leaving you the hell alone because they are essentially pissed off & unaccepting that Fifty Shades of Gray is a *fantasy.*
Weebie nerdy men are always laughed at and mocked in society for not fully understanding or respecting the difference between fantasy and reality- but it's a problem that doesn't really have a gender. Just more of society's hurtful heteronormative double standards like it's okay for a man to be a "slut" but it's not okay for a woman.
I think gay men are better than straight women in the small aspect of when we see a perfectly chiseled and tall Chad across the street with an amazing jawline and 8 inch you know what- we definitely will lust after that guy but we tend to not get our hearts involved too as we know how stupid that would be. ((in no way in hell are gay men generally better than str8 girls- but in this one area- we usually have them beat.)) "typical lust-filled deranged homo that only cares about sex" Well, at least I'm protecting my heart from being fucked over by a douche just because he's hot.
Yet str8 women often have the Fifty Shades of Gray fantasy and they want hot sex with him but they also want him to be a family man. if it does work out like that- they do tend to live happily ever after die peacefully like a satisfied suburban sally. If it doesn't work out- it's rather shitty. And what did they say on Game of Tryhards? Reality is either boring, depressing or terrifying- and well, it's usually true.
I understand women have all sorts of 'types' they enjoy- but the MGTOW thing seems intrinsically connected to this sort of thing, and that's what the topic is about.
So then they often move on to the next Chad thinking that one will work out- and that doesn't either for a lot of them. sometimes it's because the woman herself won't change her shitty behaviors and viewpoints either. There are only so many Chads compared to Beta Males though and they essentially get picked over by other Staceys. So a lot of women go their own way too - even if it doesn't get put in a Ti pretty ribbon.
Now back to the men. Like those beta male dudes will ever 'go their own way' once Stacy re-shows interest in them after it doesn't work out with the Chads she wants. As Chris Rock says 'women always have to date Ike before they date Mike.' So Mike isn't 'going his own way' - he's just waiting his own turn.
okay women are sometimes mocked in the media for their fantasies, like the Supernatural episode with Becky Rosen that I like. But objectively that episode got horrible reviews and the Te society people didn't like it.
I don't know why- it was one of the better episodes and it was my favorite lol.
do u mind explaining a little? im unclear exactly what they're about. only avoiding relationships but not sex, right? hypothetically.
i dont know anything about the truth of the 80% of women and 20% of chad men stuff i've heard. but i know if i'm giving it up to chads they're pretty far from the guy at the gym they're imagining.
It's about avoiding or "giving up" both sex and relationships. Either because they believe that no women will ever be attracted to them, or because women are more trouble than it's worth. There's also probably the conspiracy theory that the world is ruled by feminists, and the world overall works in favor against men.Originally Posted by ashlesha
This appears to be specifically what MGTOW resent being expected to do.
I once heard it in and I am not familiar with it. But generally on the gender issue I think the problem is that many don't know what to expect from the partner and how to find a partner. I think probably they should learn Socionics.
Of course certain type of men are more welcomed by women but everyone has its quadra and club. For instance I am definitely not a "chad" but there are sapiosexual women who are interested in me.
Last edited by CR400AF; 05-19-2021 at 10:57 AM.
Confession: I was totally on board with all of that jazz until I learned of the existence of attachment issues. Calling women "Bitches" was a disservice to actual bitches because at least female dogs are loyal and these crazy hoes/sluts/etc. ain't. Plus at least females know who their kids are whereas only modern tech has enabled men to discern with absolute certainty if they really are the father of that ho's baby.
Now that I know what attachment issues are, what they imply, and why they occur, well, let's just say my eyes are opened. Sluts are sluts because that's the easiest and perhaps only way they see that they will ever earn male (or hell any form of) approval from others. Broken men value them and indulge because they think casual sex=acceptance/love. Yeah, but both sides think that way because both sides are fundamentally broken and are seeking substitutes for what ought to have been there from the beginning. A father and mother who lack attachment issues and who honestly and completely loved themselves, each other, and their children. Seeing that healthy and dare I say "Divinely Ordained" order would have made things so much easier for either sex.
Sadly, that is not the case in this modern hellscape. Everyone is desperately seeking approval from others in one form or another yet is deathly afraid of being "honest" with someone else because that opens them up to the worst case scenario. That they'll all see who they "truly" are and reject them because they're a monster deserving of death in the most painful and slowest of ways.
This is not true, but I'm also operating on minimal sleep and crappy food. Will expand upon this if and when I get a request to do so.
For a group that supposedly values autonomy and personal responsibility, Mgtows sure love playing the victim and blaming other people for all of their problems.
If a man feels burdened by the responsibilities of getting married and having children, then he should stay single forever. Like seriously, who cares lol. What’s troubling about mgtows is their hatred of women and attitude of male supremacy.
@ashlesha mgtow.com has a good About section and FAQ page if you want a quick summary of what they’re all about.
Lots is wrong with modern dating, and modern life is making everyone increasingly hostile. I think MGTOWs are largely right that women in the dating market are self-interested and hypergamous, though it’s more useful to see this as a consequence of modern social conditions rather than as something immutable about women’s nature. So it’s understandable that many men would give up and develop a general dislike for women.
When I was in grade school, back when Pterodactyls ruled the skies, we learned a fable by this guy named Aesop, called "Sour Grapes".
Seems like it might apply to the MGTOW crew.
@FreelancePoliceman Are men self interested? Or is it just women?
i cant imagine that an argument for women being self-interested in comparison to men by nature could possibly be supported.
ive thought about hypergamy wrt to the fact that my "yes" circle is aggravatingly small in comparison to my loneliness, which is a hindrance, not a character flaw, unless i'm missing something.
Adam, even if we grant that they're embittered single men, isn't it unusual for there to be this many? If MGTOW isn't just a mirage caused by social media's ability to amplify random grievances, and if this is a genuine mass phenomenon, then there has got to be a systemic explanation.
From mgtow.com:
”If MGTOW is fire, then perhaps feminism is gasoline.”
Also-
“A penny saved is a woman fired.”
I’m confused—do they want women to work or not? If these men don’t want to financially support women, then maybe it would be more beneficial to allow us to work? Just saying.
@ashlesha
Many men are. But many men are also moved by irrational passion in these matters; I don't think passion is something women experience, though I'd like to hear women's response to this. Women generally maintain a better sense of control of themselves and don't give themselves over to their emotions so fully. I believe it's this realization that burns MGTOWs. They see women (successfully) acting in their own self-interest and compare this with their own uncontrollable (or very difficult to control) attraction to women and conclude that women are unfeeling manipulative bitches.
Well, I don't really think women are very good at understanding the male psyche either. Anyway, the MGTOW response would be that women's emotions are relatively shallow and come upon them mechanistically to attract them to socially/material successful men, or at least the best man in these regards they think they could get. Can you think of any story you've ever heard of a woman falling in love with a homeless man? Would you? What was the last fairy tale you heard of a noble woman coming along and sweeping a peasant man off his feet? Even in fairy tales in which a man wins a noble woman, he has to win her, and win her through superhuman feats. The idea that women are attracted to social success isn't wrong.
I don't know too much about it, but when I was reading the reddit years ago I thought it seemed like there was a lot of variation within the group on how incel-y it got
the men i've dated have (with exceptions) produced less income than me, typically. i can see how they were helpful to me in some socioeconomic ways and wont deny some level of self-interested biological responses but making me out to be a calculating pod woman would be an absurd COPE and there is simply no other way of understanding it. i will scorn the level of devaluing and invalidating disrespect as much as warranted, which is completely.
i would pin the problems with men getting consistently laid more on liberal sexual values in general, which i think is common sense, even if distasteful to the ~cultured.
Yes, it's too reductionistic. And it's rare that explaining social phenomena by means of biological or pseudo-biological explanations leads to any constructive conclusion.
As far as liberal sexual values go, they don't come from nowhere. We live in conditions where people feel themselves reduced to economic commodities; thus they realize people can also be reduced to sexual commodities.
I didn't see this up above. Hypergamy refers to a tendency for women to try to marry (and date) above them. They also think women are inclined to cheat with these types of men, though they're eventually willing to marry what they can get.
Last edited by FreelancePoliceman; 05-20-2021 at 04:08 AM.
dating above is what i meant wrt my circle of potentials being smaller than i would like it to be lol. i buy that, but i think it hurts me as much as those other guys.
cheating, eh, just don't see it, even when women cheat (isnt it statistically less often than men?) i dont see them going after chads lolll. i wanna see stats on the types of guys women cheat with along with debates over the definition of chadness
Statistics indicate that women are more likely to have short term sexual flings with uncaring, very masculine males, but tend to marry guys who are less likely to cheat on them.
What if the guy hits six figures AND he stabs a guy in the neck?
We need to ask Snoop Dogg and O.J. how they're doing with the ladies.
Yeah, and some of it is straight up social conservatism / Trump support / etc.
That sounds like it would make LIEs the most sexually successful type.
Well, I'm not doing so well right now. Maybe I need to stab someone.
Does MGTOW rhyme with big toe? Or is it pronounced mig-tao?
I don't think there's much "solution" to this other than to simply say "work harder" to attract women. And if you can't attract any women, then perhaps it's better to simply stay single, and invest in friends or hobbies or volunteering and what not.
Women have their own "logic" in whom they find attractive, just like men do. You may find that to be fair or unfair. But it's futile to try to change and control who people find attractive.
Anyway, it's their own fault for succumbing to cynicism and nihilism by bringing down "SJWs" and "white knighting" and "simps" so on. Men themselves have made men more pathetic, valueless and therefore as a result are becoming even more unattractive.
I don't know too many LIEs but they seem to get softer in their old age. Former world chess champion Gary Kasparov at his peak cheated against a 17-year-old girl in order to win. Now he sits around at home judging his daughter's high school debate tournaments over Zoom and making posts about Putin on Twitter. I'd guess you've probably lost a decent amount of bloodlust.
Uh, you'd be right. It's been two years now since I wanted to kill someone.
I’d rather not witness a stabbing. Blame it on Se ignoring.
I'm getting tired + drunk, so I'm losing track of my thoughts, but I'll do my best. Essentially, when you note a problem, trying to explain its cause by resorting to biological explanations doesn't lead you anywhere except to justify the existence of that problem. It may be the case that women are biologically inclined to hypergamy, but if that's your explanation for why this phenomenon is occurring then your conclusion must be that present conditions were inevitable and nothing can be done to change them; the only rational responses would be MGTOW or redpill/pickup artistry, hence why MGTOW use these kinds of biological explanations. Similarly if you ask "why am I so miserable," a Catholic might answer "humans are born evil"; this leads to the conclusion that nothing short of divine intervention can fix this problem, hence the need for the church and Catholics' relative attitude of passivity (as opposed to evangelicals for instance who are too stupid and uninterested to develop a comprehensive world-view). A response like "human nature" is virtually always true (at least in some respects), but it paralyzes any ideas of change, and tends to discourage consideration of why conditions may once have been different, or what might cause them to change.
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