ESI/LIE Conversations

[Fluffy Princess Unicorn]

Lol. I totally believe this.

I have an ESI-Se buddy who will sometimes extend his arm expansively and address the imaginary crowd with the statement "I am a sex god. All women must bow before me."

He's joking, but he's not exactly joking. I mean, he said it, right?

After his wife left him, he put on about 150 lbs and he lives in an immaculate house with no furniture except a big screen TV for watching sports. But he still talks the same way.

As for @Noir's conversation above, if an ESI told me to kneel before her, I'd say "Fine, but after that, it's your turn."

I don't think I'm exactly a normal LIE. Close, but not exact.

Lol, I made all of this up just to playfully taunt him. I sent him the link after I posted it. The only part he actually said was, "Thanks for being so understanding." We like power struggle jokes, even though I always win. Personally, I wonder if it's related to Se, since it relates to competition, power dynamics, challenging, opposing, etc. Idk, arrogant humor (such as with your friend) is funny, though.

[Adam Strange]

I was sort-of dating an ESI for about a year last year, and then I guess the way we were getting closer triggered her Fearful-Avoidant attachment style and we seem to not be talking anymore, but I'd like to say this to her:

[Armitage]

Damn man, I know the feeling. I had that with the ESI-Se I was dating this summer. It hurts.
It feels like this elastic that one of the two pulls and distances. Then the draw gets you back to each other, and then the other one pulls away. You do that a couple of times until the band snaps.
I don't know what it is with the ESIs I know, but they generally seem so afraid of rejection that they never speak their mind and dig their own grave that way. Even the ones I know for years still rather keep quiet until they cannot bear the emotions anymore and cut off, instead of straight forward just saying it out in the open, so I and perhaps we can work on it.

What helps me when an ESI I know is acting off is to discuss my thoughts with a non-judgemental friend. Just speaking my thoughts helps me go over the possible reasons of why the ESI is drawing back. I generally do this with my LSI friend. He often says that he isn't able to offer me any advice on the problem itself, but that's no issue for me, I come to him because he's the only one who truly listens without judgement. I'd suggest you go meet up with your ESI coworker in the weekend and share your story about your decorator friend with him. Possibly he might even be able to provide some insights in what drives the decorator ESI's behaviour.

Perhaps she might just be caught up in her study. I know myself that university can eat up your time, all the programming I have to do for mine means I cannot meet up with my friends as frequent as I used to. Only this week I realized that a years-long ESI mate is acting off lately, because he is jealous of my classmates with whom I go out for drinks every week, whereas I hadn't seen him in a while. He tried to hide it, in order to not appear needy, but his strange behaviour only led me to think that he was angry with me. It's a good thing that I know him long enough to eventually infer his reasons, and you should try to infer the motives of your ESI decorator too, with a bit of assistance from your ESI coworker.

For how long has the silence of your decorator ESI been going on actually?

[Adam Strange]

Damn man, I know the feeling. I had that with the ESI-Se I was dating this summer. It hurts.
It feels like this elastic that one of the two pulls and distances. Then the draw gets you back to each other, and then the other one pulls away. You do that a couple of times until the band snaps.
I don't know what it is with the ESIs I know, but they generally seem so afraid of rejection that they never speak their mind and dig their own grave that way. Even the ones I know for years still rather keep quiet until they cannot bear the emotions anymore and cut off, instead of straight forward just saying it out in the open, so I and perhaps we can work on it.

What helps me when an ESI I know is acting off is to discuss my thoughts with a non-judgemental friend. Just speaking my thoughts helps me go over the possible reasons of why the ESI is drawing back. I generally do this with my LSI friend. He often says that he isn't able to offer me any advice on the problem itself, but that's no issue for me, I come to him because he's the only one who truly listens without judgement. I'd suggest you go meet up with your ESI coworker in the weekend and share your story about your decorator friend with him. Possibly he might even be able to provide some insights in what drives the decorator ESI's behaviour.

Perhaps she might just be caught up in her study. I know myself that university can eat up your time, all the programming I have to do for mine means I cannot meet up with my friends as frequent as I used to. Only this week I realized that a years-long ESI mate is acting off lately, because he is jealous of my classmates with whom I go out for drinks every week, whereas I hadn't seen him in a while. He tried to hide it, in order to not appear needy, but his strange behaviour only led me to think that he was angry with me. It's a good thing that I know him long enough to eventually infer his reasons, and you should try to infer the motives of your ESI decorator too, with a bit of assistance from your ESI coworker.

For how long has the silence of your decorator ESI been going on actually?

I'm sorry, @Armitage. The ESI that I was referring to in the penultimate post is a mature RN, not a student, and she's been silent for six weeks. Which might not be that long in her world. She's left me hanging between dates for six weeks before. But honestly, I'm not happy with the way she does not return my bids for attention in a timely manner. That is one of the best indicators of a bad relationship.

As for the interior decorator ESI, she's absolutely fucking normal as a person. I'm going to meet with her this afternoon. She returns my calls within a few minutes, or an hour at most, exactly like a normal person who is in a normal relationship that they value. Too bad she's a lesbian. She's otherwise almost perfect. She's e6 CP to my e8, Secure in her attachment style, smart as hell and a good therapist, and the only thing even slightly off is that she is ESI-Se and not ESI-Fi to my LIE-Te, but that means she has a warrior's body, which I appreciate.

[Adam Strange]

A miracle! I met four ESIs in one day, and three of them were Dualized.

Let me explain.

I have two jobs. One job is getting money any way I can, and that usually takes the form of designing weapons systems for the government. But my other job is Parking Lot Attendant. That’s what I tell the IRS I’m doing, on my tax returns. Plus, Weapons Designer.

The Parking Lot Attendant job consists of parking cars in my yard on Football Saturdays. I live in the Burns Park neighborhood of Ann Arbor, close to the U of M Stadium, and the people attending games have to park somewhere, and I have a big yard. It only makes sense for us to merge our respective talents and needs.

Plus, parking thirty-six cars, eight times a year, at $40 to $60 per car almost covers the property taxes, so it works out.

But I also get to exercise dynamic Capitalism and meet a lot of people, both of which I love to do. And yesterday I met four ESIs, three of whom were with LIEs. Absolutely amazing!

Act One – Single ESI-Se

She arrived driving a small, pretty car with three passengers. She was blond, very overweight, and had her gruff-ESI greybeard dad in the back seat. He, like many sports-fan ESI-Se’s, was also overweight.

Since her car was so small, I thought I could use it to park in a place that blocks in two other cars, but I had to get her to promise to leave right at the end of the game, so the other people wouldn’t be blocked in for very long.

I asked her if she was going to stay for the whole game, and she quickly said Yes.
I then asked her if she was going to leave right at the end of the game, because I wanted to use her car to fill in a space in front of two other cars, and she’d be blocking them if she, for example, went to dinner after the game. In this way, I set out the problem for her.

Her face did an amazing thing. I could follow her thoughts perfectly as she considered the situation and her ethical part in it.

Now, most people just lie to me. After all, they don’t know me and they think that paying so much just to park their car in my yard entitles them to fuck me over a bit, because they feel fucked over a bit, and I get that, but she was doing something honest.

After a few seconds of consideration, she looked at me and said “Yes, we will leave at the end of the game.”

Now, if she had said she was going to stay later, I’d have parked her somewhere else, but she calculated that she would leave and she then made a promise to me that she would do as she promised.

Pure fucking ESI. I love it.

Act Two – Male LIE-0 and female ESI-0

A modest car pulled into the lot and the handsome guy driving was an obvious LIE. Probably an LIE-0, or possibly leaning a bit towards LIE-Te, and his female companion was not beautiful, but rather had a rough look, and might have been either an LSI or an ESI, it was hard to tell. He was about 3/10 steps better looking than she was.
As I parked them, I suggested that he let his companion? wife? out of the car so he could park closer to the next car over. She pulled her hair back in a way which showed me the ring on her finger but said nothing while he struggled to process what I had said (and whether he was going to take directions from a stranger), so I concluded that she was his wife.
When they got out of the car, I decided to find out if she was an ESI, so I asked him how they met?
He said they met in Med school. She still hadn’t said a word.
I said that they looked like a good couple, and I guessed that he was the logical one (if he balked at this, then his wife was LSI), and that his wife was one of those few people who could put up with him.
In true insipient ego-maniacal Doctor manner, he responded by saying “Well, that’s dark.”

Do you know that LIEs often poke each other without taking it personally? We do. It’s like two Knights, jousting. May the best man win the Princess.

His wife was listening to this conversation, and spoke up at this for the first time.

“It’s true”, she said. Implying that he was not easy to get along with and was an incipient asshole.

“See?”, I said. “She knows you.”

Damn, I envy them.

Act Three – Male LIE-Ni and female ESI-Se

A small car pulled up and an LIE-Ni leaned out of it and asked if he could park here? I have signs saying “Park Here”, so I assume that he normally had some trouble with Se.
He also looked almost exactly like Tom Ellis in the show Lucifer, except this guy looked dreamier and less aware.
“Sure”, I said.
“We’re only going to be staying until a half hour before the game starts. Can you give us a discount since you can sell the space again?”
Lol. Definitely an LIE leaning towards an ILI. Shave those nickels, dude.

I looked inside the car at his companion and the two little girls in the back. His companion was a very attractive ESI-Se; thin, blonde, intelligent, and smiling knowingly.

“Yes, I can do that. Park right here.” And he did.

As they were getting out of the car and preparing to head to the tailgate party, not the game itself, I watched as she strapped on a backpack and he placed the little girls into a double stroller. I listened to them talk and they were both from Eastern Europe, probably visiting professors or something.

He was definitely the female of the two, and she the male. He started pushing the stroller towards the stadium and I stopped him.
I said, “Wait. Before you go, I need to ask something. But not from you, but rather from your wife.” I turned to her and said “I need you to promise to be back here thirty minutes before the game, and to remind him of that. Because he’ll forget.”
She laughed at the truth of my statement and said “Yes, I will do that.” And off they went.

And thirty minutes before the game, they were back, as promised, and I sold their space again.

Act Four – Male ESI-Se and female LIE-Te

A pretty red SUV pulled into the lot and the driver was one of those male ESIs who is in his thirties and slender and always will be. He was slightly graying and had two kids in the car. I liked the guy immediately. He reminded me of my HS buddy.
I got him parked and his wife came around the car and I immediately saw that she was an LIE-Te. She looked vaguely mannish and yet incontrovertibly female. Solid-looking, like she was powerful in some far-off land. Exactly like the way this woman will look in ten years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M507F0cw3c0

I stepped back and looked at the two of them.
“You know”, I said, “you two are really well-matched.”

“Nooooo”, the ESI said, dismayed. “Don’t tell her that. It will go to her head.”

She looked at him with an expression of “Stop it. I’d never betray you.”

For a minute, I didn’t know what to say. This was a new dynamic for me. But then I said “You’re a lucky guy. She really is a rare find. I’d say she’s one in a hundred. Or even rarer.” Because female LIEs really are not that common. In my entire circle of six hundred or so acquaintances, I know exactly two.
She smiled sweetly at him, but there was also steel in that smile. I could see it.

“Oh my god. Stop. She’s never going to stop talking about this.” She moved a bit closer to him. It was obvious that he was trying really hard to hold up a face that said he was in control of this relationship and was simultaneously worthy of it.
I decided to help him out here.

“On the other hand”, I emphasized with my finger, “there aren’t many guys who are smart enough to go for a girl like her.”
And they looked at each other and everything was even.

[Armitage]

Thanks for your sympathy, Adam. The ESI-Se and I hit off well at first, but it went downhill after a while. He was a waiter who aspired for a career in modelling. Normally I get along more often with fellow academic guys, but his self-assuredness, determinition, and athleticism struck me. Things seemed promising, he even said that he was looking for something serious, committed, and long-term.

It went well for a time, until he began asking me for money to pay back what he had borrowed from his best friend. I explained to him that as a student I am in a tight corner too. He didn't mention it for a while, but then started asking for it again. I didn't want to outright say "No.", and being subtle about it seemed to have no lasting effect either, so I acted like I didn't understand him, laughed a bit sheepishly, and tried to divert the topic. He instead took it personally, because he thought I was laughing him out and he thus called me rude. Anyway, it clearly wasn't working and the guy was ignoring my boundaries already early when dating. It felt like he was only interested into me for my money, so I told him that and broke off with him.

A couple of days later he changed his profile picture to look tough. Yet I noticed that his smile lacked his characteristic confidence and his eyes missed the heart-piercing gaze that I fell for. Instead they betrayed a hinge of sadness, which he attempted to mask. At this point I still don't know if he did or did not feel anything for me, but alea iacta est.

[Adam Strange]

@Armitage, the question of money and dating can be convoluted.

If I am on a date and I have asked her out, then I expect to pay for everything. If she asks me out, I expect her to pay for everything. And when I was married, the question of who pays for whatever basically came down to who had their credit card at hand, because it all came out of one pot.

But this is how I operate on first dates and marriage. The in-between is where things get weird.

I will say that I paid for everything on every date I had with the RN ESI, even though she made a good wage, and I eventually decided that I didn’t like that so much.

On the other hand, I’ve gone out (not on dates) with an ESI-Se student who doesn’t have two nickels to rub together and I paid for the first lunch and when I was about to pay for the second lunch, she said that she would get it, because I got it last time. And since then, we’ve gone Dutch, which means we each pay for what we order, and I realized that that’s what I like best in a woman.

[Armitage]

If it had just been paying for the date, I would have been perfectly alright with it. Since I can be oblivious at times, I just openly ask the other person if they prefer me to pay for the date, if they want to pay, or if they want to split. Discussing a normally taboo topic that way provides insight into each other's values and prevents a whole lot of hassle, in my opinion. Especially since nowadays it's not a given anymore that men treat women, and in gay dating like in my case it's even more complicated.

The problem was that he didn't just ask me to pay for the date, but asked me to lend him money too. And he did not ask for pocket change, either. Asking to borrow money from me that early in a relationship seems to me like a red flag, especially when insisting on it repeatedly despite me voicing my objections. Even if it is to pay back one's best friend, asking me for money that soon means I'll be seen as Mr Piggybank for the rest of the relationship, instead of as his love. His focus on money made me feel unloved.

My psychology study taught me that most relationships break up over money disputes. And Stratiyevskaya warned ESIs that LIEs may unjustly claim ESI's money and that this is the main downfall of our duality. I thought that by keeping our finances separate I was doing the right thing.

[Adam Strange]

https://www.gocomics.com/poorly-drawn-lines/2020/09/09

[Adam Strange]

When the ESI decorator started working on my house, she went through every single thing in the house. Then, after a process of discovery, she began to throw things out. Or sell them. And then she and I went shopping to buy new things, mostly to her taste, but I had veto power.

I had come to trust her before this point, so her removing walls and appliances and getting rid of almost all the furniture and anything that was associated with my ex-wife was OK with me. I made only a few exceptions, mostly with items which had memories associated with them. These she put into boxes which were out of sight and not seen daily, but were not entirely gone.

(She and I are still fighting over the white Corian sink upstairs that my ex-wife picked out. I like it for its clean lines and functionality, and the ESI wants it gone. I like it, not for any memories it has, but because I think it is actually in extremely good taste. The ESI seems to be approaching the goal of getting rid of it like the Terminator approached his goals. She's not giving up on this and won't be happy until she gets her way.)

Throughout this process, I had only one rule; she could get rid of anything she wants, but if I want a particular item for a functional house (like a couch or a stove), then she has to replace the bad item with something better.


For some reason, I don’t like to lose stuff. Even stuff that is no longer useful. She, in contrast, seems to like a process of frequent evaluation and renewal.

These preferences might have parallels in Capitalism. “Thou Shalt Accumulate”, and “A Cycle of Destructive Renewal.”

….Not to put too fine a point on it.

[Adam Strange]

ESI to LIE: You’re a good boss.
LIE to ESI: Last month you said I was the reason that the world is such a fucked up place.
ESI to LIE: I feel that was in response to some very specific statement you made.
LIE to ESI: We’ll, you’re not wrong. I’m perfectly capable of doing some very fucked up things if I don’t get advice from you.
Anyway, I’m not your boss. We’re working together for our mutual benefit.
ESI to LIE: Partner, then. I don’t really know what to call it.

LIE to himself: Call it Love and Mutual Support, Miss Dual.

[Tarnished]

For some reason, I don’t like to lose stuff. Even stuff that is no longer useful. She, in contrast, seems to like a process of frequent evaluation and renewal.

.

Because it's not her stuff lol.

My ESI Mom always try keep old stuff, especially the stuff that she have emotion attached to, like, her father old stuffs (a fucking LSE).

[spacious]

LIE and ESI are riding hotel elevator on vacation
LIE chats with stranger asking about last night's game of the sports team for which the lady is wearing a t-shirt. ESI smiles, says nothing.
After the LIE and ESI exit the elevator, ESI asks the LIE what city the team was in. LIE says and ESI says "That's what I thought!" *pause* "Hockey?"
LIE *slight sideways glance/smirk* "No, football"
ESI "football??!!! They have a football team in that city? O_O"

LIE, while wrapping up lunch with ESI: "Let's go see if the hotel pool is open. Now we have a short window because the sun is so low down so it won't be out for long"
ESI "It is? How do you know these things?"
LIE "well it's winter so [explains]"
ESI thinks, how do everyday people get around to understanding what's behind weather phenomena?

[Adam Strange]

LIE and ESI are riding hotel elevator on vacation
LIE chats with stranger asking about last night's game of the sports team for which the lady is wearing a t-shirt. ESI smiles, says nothing.
After the LIE and ESI exit the elevator, ESI asks the LIE what city the team was in. LIE says and ESI says "That's what I thought!" *pause* "Hockey?"
LIE *slight sideways glance/smirk* "No, football"
ESI "football??!!! They have a football team in that city? O_O"

LIE, while wrapping up lunch with ESI: "Let's go see if the hotel pool is open. Now we have a short window because the sun is so low down so it won't be out for long"
ESI "It is? How do you know these things?"
LIE "well it's winter so [explains]"
ESI thinks, how do everyday people get around to understanding what's behind weather phenomena?

The sports question would have thrown me, but I know LIEs who are into sports. Se-HA.

As for weather phenomena, I can look at the sun and tell about how many minutes of daylight are left. It's simple. The sun moves 15 degrees per hour across the sky, which is 1/3 of the angular distance from the horizon to the point halfway to the zenith. (It's also a bit less than the angle that your splayed hand subtends at arm's length.) The season tells you the tilt of the sun's orbit and therefore the path it will take in the sky. All that's left is to imagine the path between the sun and its setting-point and divide it into 15 degree segments, and that's the hours until sunset. It's pretty accurate with a little practice.

[LadAhmed]

The sports question would have thrown me, but I know LIEs who are into sports. Se-HA.

As for weather phenomena, I can look at the sun and tell about how many minutes of daylight are left. It's simple. The sun moves 15 degrees per hour across the sky, which is 1/3 of the angular distance from the horizon to the point halfway to the zenith. (It's also a bit less than the angle that your splayed hand subtends at arm's length.) The season tells you the tilt of the sun's orbit and therefore the path it will take in the sky. All that's left is to imagine the path between the sun and its setting-point and divide it into 15 degree segments, and that's the hours until sunset. It's pretty accurate with a little practice.

What about just... using a watch and knowing at which time the sun will go down?

[crazymaisy]

Who needs a watch when you can know by the light or dark what time it is, really the simplest thing. I only have an analog clock on my desktop lately because Win 11 doesn't have one on taskbar anymore.

Knowing what could be useful in the wild or an apocalypse future is gold.

[LadAhmed]

Who needs a watch when you can know by the light or dark what time it is, really the simplest thing. I only have an analog clock on my desktop lately because Win 11 doesn't have one on taskbar anymore.

Knowing what could be useful in the wild or an apocalypse future is gold.

Yeah I can do that on a regular basis, yet I find using a watch as a faster and more accurate way especially if you're indoors (and too lazy to look out the window just to see how dark it is)

[Adam Strange]

What about just... using a watch and knowing at which time the sun will go down?

Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.

[LadAhmed]

Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.

But you sure have a phone

[Adam Strange]

But you sure have a phone

Yes, and as @crazymaisy implied, it will stop working when the first stratospheric bomb takes out the global positioning system and the second one takes out the electrical grid and the cell towers.

[LadAhmed]

Yes, and as @crazymaisy implied, it will stop working when the first stratospheric bomb takes out the global positioning system and the second one takes out the electrical grid and the cell towers.

Y'all so paranoid wtf

[Aster]

Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.

they are now fashion statements it’ll prob be considered hipster, along with typewriters

[Adam Strange]

they are now fashion statements it’ll prob be considered hipster, along with typewriters

I had a thin gold watch with a leather band, but I no longer want that to be my fashion statement. No watch at all, please. Just a black T-shirt, jeans, and black leather Italian shoes. Nothing more than what I need to buy a sandwich.

I don't have a wallet, either. Just two credit cards, a driver's license, and some folding cash. No metal change. It wrecks my pockets.

[spacious]

ESI moves the bluetooth speaker from its place on top of the refrigerator/freezer (near a corner of the kitchen), saying "And this needs to go somewhere else," thinking that this was an uncharacteristically strange spot for an LIE to place an item.

LIE: Well it should be pointing towards a corner, the sound is best that way

ESI replaces it where it was and marvels at how someone could find the time and mental space to learn such things as how to optimize acoustics when this has nothing to do with their profession or daily needs.

[Armitage]

Who wears a watch? I got rid of mine years ago.

I do, but purely for utility. I got a sportswatch, which combines the functions of a watch, my smartphone, and music player with monitoring my exercises. Then there is my scubadiving watch, which I wear on holidays and use at home as a clock nearby my bed, because of its handy backlight on/off button.
I also have my Grandpa's watch for his 40-year work anniversary, but I never wear it, because I don't want it to get broken, or stolen. It's ironic, because he too never wore it, because he didn't care one bit for materialism. It's an expensive silver watch with two diamonds studded into the dial. I actually care more about his initials, which he engraved on the backside with his trusty Swiss army knife. That's what makes it personal to me.

Who carries credit cards? I got rid of mine years ago, because I can pay with my watch.

[Tarnished]

My LIE uncle is not a very likable person. He think about profit too much, even with his relatives. He's greedy and knows how to take advantage of someone when he has the chance.

My ESI mother doesn't like him very much. She's one of the few people who can directly confront my uncle when he's being a jerk, and my uncle seem a littlebit afraid of my mom (lol). My mom said: if you are too passive, you could end up being exploited by him.

She know how to deal with LIE, just like I know how to deal with SEE, yeah... And talking to her how she should have a LIE friend seem difficult.

[Armitage]

There's this new student who entered my psychology faculty. After we have been talking for the past few days, I suspect him to be an ESI.

LIE parks his bicycle and sees a guy fixing his own: "Wil het lukken?"
ESI: 'Sorry, I don't speak Dutch.'
LIE: "Is it going well?"
ESI: 'I'm trying to increase the height of my saddle. My own bike is at the repair shop, so they lend me this one.'
LIE inspects the mechanism: "If you turn this lever and rotate it, the clamp around the saddle bar loosens and you'll be able to change its height."
ESI: 'Yes, but I never know in what direction I have to turn something to loosen it.'
LIE: "Righty tighty, lefty loosy."
ESI: 'Which direction is left?'
LIE motions with his hands: "Counter-clockwise." then tries rotating the lever: "Damn, this is completely stuck, they should've oiled this."
ESI applies force and it moves half a turn: 'Yup, stuck.'
LIE, impressed by the ESI's strength: "Uhu."
ESI: 'What's your name by the way?'
LIE: "Marijn, a typically Dutch name."
ESI: 'Mine's Moritz, a typically German name.'
Both: Laugh

[Adam Strange]

I was talking to an LIE salesman yesterday. He's about thirty and I've been buying machines from him for years. He told me he eventually wants to 1. Get rich, and 2. Be his own boss.
I have no doubt he'll accomplish both things. There are only sixteen people.

Yesterday he mentioned that he wasn't married. I said, "What? You've been engaged for at least two years."

He looked at me sheepishly and said "We're just waiting until we have enough money saved."

I thought, "Uh oh. ESI-LIE Duality happens in about three to six hours of mutual exposure. Two years of being engaged does not sound good." So I asked him if he had a picture of his fiance, and he did.
She's SLI. Just like my ex-wife.

I've talked to him about Duality in the past so he knows what Duals are, and he realizes that I'm a cult fanatic, but he also knows he's in no hurry to get married and secretly wonders why. Well, he's about thirty. I didn't know jack shit about people when I was thirty. I'd had sex with two ESIs (among many others) and I really liked both pf them and there was something about both of them that made me want more of them (and more meaning not just sex), but neither of them knew calculus, and there was no way I was going to marry a woman who didn't know calculus. So, I dropped them both, moved on to more and more terrible women, until I just stopped dating for a year from the effects of dating horrible matches. And then I met my SLI ex-wife, who seemed stable and smart. And with whom I never really argued, so I thought, "Maybe I could marry her."

Anyway, I told the LIE that his GF looked a lot like my ex-wife, who is my Supervisor, and that didn't work out too well. I then showed him some pictures of some ESIs I've dated for reference, and he said, "You know, I think the woman I was dating before this one might have been my Dual. I felt really protected by her, emotionally. But after about two years together, we started to fight. And then we broke up. And I think I went the other way with this one. She's really emotionally stable and we never argue."

I'm seeing this thirty-something LIE walk down the exact same path that I walked, and if he does that, he's going to retard his goal of getting rich for a long, long time. To say nothing of what being on your Supervisor's territory for the rest of your life will do to your personal development.

There are readers of this post who are going to say "Adam, what the fuck do you think you're doing? You don't know this guy and you're messing with his life." To which I will answer, The above conversation is much condensed and I gave him many chances to change the subject and I told him at least three times that If he is happy, he should ignore my intrusive bullshit and we can just move on to other topics, but in every case, he seemed to press on. My guess is that he's not happy with an SLI fiance, and he can't figure out why he's not happy.

Because, you know, 1D Fi.

Anyway, LIEs don't talk to other LIEs the way they talk to everyone else. With other LIEs, it's "No bullshit and no filters, and let the pieces fall where they may."

So I wrote down the links to a Socionics test that he can take and can give to his fiance "just for fun" in case my VI is misfiring, and a link to Strat's description of the ESI-LIE Duality. Just so he can compare what he's got now to what he should have. And I left him with a final caution that, if he's happy right now, he should tear up that note and work on his relationship.


So... Fast forward to this morning. I was working with the ESI who is helping me remodel my house, and part of that process is to get rid of shit I don't need. We were going through boxes and boxes of books that I have in storage. The boxes are in four categories. Physics and engineering (Te), Self-help and self-care (Si-PoLR), Economics and Business (Te), and Fiction (Ni and Fi). In the Self-Help and Self-Care boxes were book after book on "How to Save this Relationship" and "How to Get Along with Your Spouse" and "How to Make a Marriage Last" and "The Dance of Anger" and "How to Fix your Marriage." I held these books up to the ESI, a woman I've known for ten years and with whom I've never had an argument and who, most importantly, despite being a lesbian, has my back, and said "I don't need these books anymore. I know how to fix my marriage; Divorce the SLI", and laughed.

I then told the ESI the above story of the LIE salesman. When I got to the part where, after two years, the LIE and the ESI started to argue, her eyes got big for a moment and then she just said, simply, "Wrong ESI."


Post Script:

That LIE's ESI might not have been the wrong ESI. I've found that ESIs are remarkably similar underneath, and it's only the Attachment issues which make them very different.

(Well, Attachment, instincts, and enneatype, but those other factors are minor compared to Attachment when it comes to making or breaking a relationship.)

It's actually more likely that the LIE was stone stupid about what he should be expecting from the woman. Maybe he was trying to get her to take calculus classes.

In my conversation over the cubic yards of books we were sorting, the ESI interior decorator asked me if I read a lot of books? I said I had read almost all of the three or four thousand books I have. I read for relaxation away from work.
She said that she'd read about three books all the way through that weren't for a school assignment.
I asked her where she got her information, and she said, "Living. My friends. The internet."
So I guess that expecting her to know calculus is out.
Well. I now realize that calculus doesn't mean shit. Not when a Dual is available.

[spacious]

neither of them knew calculus, and there was no way I was going to marry a woman who didn't know calculus.

Feels proud(?) that I took Calc 1 and passed with an A- (in high school) and a B in college... The HS teacher told me I asked too many questions, lol.

To say nothing of what being on your Supervisor's territory for the rest of your life will do to your personal development.

Yeah, finding the Ne to communicate with someone in my life whom I think is my supervisor scares the living shit out of me, so I can imagine.

It's actually more likely that the LIE was stone stupid about what he should be expecting from the woman. Maybe he was trying to get her to take calculus classes.

:/ It is interesting that the arguing didn't start until two years in... HMMM.

I hope he reports back to you with his thoughts! Cool that he is open-minded enough to take in the information you were sharing with him.

Wish we had a better description of the duality than Strat's, though. But we'll get there...

Thanks for sharing (here) and for spreading the word (out there)! Send those LIEs my way (and an SLI my way to help me figure out how to communicate with IEEs. Hah. JK, first priority is much higher.)

Your ESI-Se friend seems well-balanced mentally. Doesn't seem to have the self-consciousness about her Ne PoLR that I had, for many years, in higher education. Good stuff

[Adam Strange]

Feels proud(?) that I took Calc 1 and passed with an A- (in high school) and a B in college... The HS teacher told me I asked too many questions, lol.

@wonderwoman, please bear in mind that my preference at that time for a woman who knew calculus said a lot about my insecurity, and nothing about the intelligence of my dates.
I also rejected an LSI because she just had a HS education at age 22. After we broke up, she went to college, then grad school, then became a math professor at a university. So I was basically a blind shithead. I probably still am.

Yeah, finding the Ne to communicate with someone in my life whom I think is my supervisor scares the living shit out of me, so I can imagine.

The ESI interior decorator is living with her IEE grandmother because she doesn't want to live with her SEE father or her EIE mother, and she's been doing this all summer and she hasn't gotten upset about it yet, although she did say that her grandma spent all day sewing cat toys for her friends, and said it as if she viewed it as a fairly large waste of time.

:/ It is interesting that the arguing didn't start until two years in... HMMM.

I hope he reports back to you with his thoughts! Cool that he is open-minded enough to take in the information you were sharing with him.

In truth, it was he who thought she was a Dual. I never saw her picture. Now that I think of it, it's possible that the first GF was an LSI, since I started out with LSIs and I'd never felt so emotionally supported by anyone before them, and the arguments started after about a year.

Wish we had a better description of the duality than Strat's, though. But we'll get there...

Thanks for sharing (here) and for spreading the word (out there)! Send those LIEs my way (and an SLI my way to help me figure out how to communicate with IEEs. Hah. JK, first priority is much higher.)

Your ESI-Se friend seems well-balanced mentally. Doesn't seem to have the self-consciousness about her Ne PoLR that I had, for many years, in higher education. Good stuff

My ESI friend is the most well-balanced female ESI that I know. She's extremely wise. Her therapist EIE mother said she'd make a great therapist, but she doesn't want to do that. Instead, she wants to help people who are less fortunate than she is.

I told her that I could help those people, too, but I don't want to.
She was pissed off for days about that. But hey, Duality.

[spacious]

Instead, she wants to help people who are less fortunate than she is.

I told her that I could help those people, too, but I don't want to.
She was pissed off for days about that. But hey, Duality.

I was recently talking to an ILI who believes in getting away from language of categorizing groups of people into more and less fortunate, and towards language that recognizes resilience and community membership of everyone. I don't have well-developed ideas about it yet but it seems to be coming from a good place. That's the main thing I wanted to communicate for now. To be continued.

[Armitage]

I was recently talking to an ILI who believes in getting away from language of categorizing groups of people into more and less fortunate, and towards language that recognizes resilience and community membership of everyone. I don't have well-developed ideas about it yet but it seems to be coming from a good place. That's the main thing I wanted to communicate for now. To be continued.

I'd be really interested into hearing how that would be applied in the context of welfare, education, and equal opportunity programs. Usually one would say that those programs target the less fortunate or those with less Social Economical Status, but would one now instead say that they focus on people with less resilience and community membership? Or would it be used completely differently?

[Armitage]

I told her that I could help those people, too, but I don't want to.
She was pissed off for days about that. But hey, Duality.

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, I believe that there are so many ways to give back to society, that there exists a way for each of us. ... And if you truly aren't into it, you can at least subtract charities from your taxes.
Perhaps Santa Dual will take you then from her naughty list this Christmas.

[Adam Strange]

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it, I believe that there are so many ways to give back to society, that there exists a way for each of us. ... And if you truly aren't into it, you can at least subtract charities from your taxes.
Perhaps Santa Dual will take you then from their naughty list for Christmas.

I make automatic payments every month to three “save the earth” organizations, and I design weapons for the government (and others) which, because of their fearsome awesomeness, have made people think twice before getting into fights.

What I don’t do well is what the ESI is training to do; mitigating the effects of inequality, one person and one family at a time.

I mean, that’s like swatting individual locusts, when you should be looking for their breeding ground.

”Tax the Rich”, and “Fox News Delenda Est.”

[Armitage]

I make automatic payments every month to three “save the earth” organizations,

That's a good thing.
I recall that you had a discussion with your decorator ESI-Se before about saving the Earth, and that she deemed you too much of an optimist, wasn't it? Perhaps she only recognizes concrete action ( Se ) like going demonstrating, whereas she doesn't recognize the value of donations as much, because that's a cog in the global system ( Te ) and only comes into effect in the long-term ( Ni ) of which the consequences aren't immediately visible ( Se )? You could always just spend one of your donations on some "There's no Planet B" clothing, that way you do what you normally do by donating money ( Te method for Fi goal ), but make it visible by wearing it ( Se )?
Of course this is all just conjecture from my side, but it was an interesting Socionics thought experiment to try and predict her reaction, haha.

and I design weapons for the government (and others) which, because of their fearsome awesomeness, have made people think twice before getting into fights.

Although I'm a member of the NATO youth, I'm abivalent about the effectiveness of deterrence, especially in the modern era. There is no clear attribution for Cyber Warfare attacks, which undermines the communication component of the deterrence principle. A few years ago an important French media station was hacked and all their computers displayed ISIS flags, causing the NATO to presume that they were behind it. In the end it turned out, though, that Russian hackers had spoofed their Internet Protocol ( IP ) addresses to appear from Syria. Despite all their high-tech Airbus weaponry, the French thus retaliated against the "wrong" target. Putin had been laughing all along; divide and conquer.

Also, given all the proxy wars fought I have my doubts about if any weaponry actually makes people think twice about getting into fights, or that it just moves the battlefield to other countries' places. As the saying goes, no-one shits where they eat themselves. Otherwise, Putin would have been deterred from annexing the Crimea, Abkhazia, and South-Ossetia, and Putin and his allies would not be presently preparing to claim even more territory in Ukraine, Georgia, and Syria.

Moreover, the people in charge of starting wars aren't the ones at the frontlines themselves, and I'm not convinced that they care all that much, because as Stalin said:
"A single death is a tragedy, a million a statistic."

What I don’t do well is what the ESI is training to do; mitigating the effects of inequality, one person and one family at a time.

Nor do you have to be good at that, because all good deeds matter, both big and small. Each person has their own way of contributing.

I mean, that’s like swatting individual locusts, when you should be looking for their breeding ground.

How could one contribute to targeting these breeding grounds?

”Tax the Rich”, and “Fox News Delenda Est.”

I know of Tax the Rich and I know that Fox News is a politicized news channel, but I don't know what “Fox News Delenda Est.” is, however.

[Adam Strange]

@Armitage, the breeding ground of most social problems is structured inequality. People who have money get all the power, and then they structure society to keep it that way.

If you couldn’t pass your wealth on to your undeserving family, but you still wanted to give your kids an opportunity to prosper, you would be forced to invest in a society in which they could do well. Into things like public schools, health care that doesn’t bankrupt you for one single event, the free exchange of information, etc. And with an equal-opportunity society (not an equal-outcome society), then merit would be the basis for advancement.

So, tax the rich until they have nothing to pass on, and end the propagandist mouthpiece of the ruling class, Fox News.

[Adam Strange]

I was talking to the ESI interior designer today and I have two conclusions.

One, she is relentless in her efforts to eliminate all of her competition, even though she’s a lesbian and doesn’t want to have sex with me. This seems to be more about her feelings of being able to compete with others for my attention.

Two, she is not telling me how to live my life, but is rather asking me hard questions about what I want to do with my life. Really hard questions. She’s like a great therapist, or a mechanic who absolutely knows how the engine works.
She doesn’t know where the car is going, but she’s not letting it start until I have a destination for it.

She’s only 27 and she’s kicking my ass. She’s eliminating all my excuses for bad behavior. Christ, if I had met her when I was 27, I’d be ten times richer now and a hell of a lot happier.

I don’t think every Dual could do this for me. I get the sense that a lot of them (maybe all of them) would move me in this direction by default, but she’s particularly self-aware and isn’t allowing me any excuses for being anything other than my best. She’s taking my 4D Ne (hey, I could do this or I could do that or I could do anything at all) and is just grinding it into the dirt in favor of one clear direction.


I’m an e8w7. Normally, I don’t let anyone control me or tell me what to do. But she’s not telling me what to do. She’s just pointing out that a lot of my present actions are not ever going to pay off, despite my optimistic Ni hopes for the future. She’s an e6w7, a loyal skeptic. She’s on my side but wants to know that I have a plan that is actually going to bear fruit.
It’s kind of amazing that Socionics Duals have this kind of complementary enneatype arrangement, but I think that most Duals do.

[spacious]

@Adam Strange, This woman really does sound awesome. I’m so happy you’re in each other’s lives! I have good feelings about your future, re. meeting an eligible Dual who’s not a lesbian , though she certainly seems hard to find. But I love the richness of this relationship and how present it is in your life. This friendship and how much it means to you are inspiring! It makes me think about appreciating what's right in front of me, here, now (basically gratitude). I'm also single/longtime single so have thought about this theme quite a bit. It's almost like this friendship is preparing you for a romantic relationship with a Dual who is equally healthy and wonderful as she is. It warms my heart!

By the way, how did you make her acquaintance – it’s cool you’ve known each other for 10 years. There must be a good deal of trust there

[Adam Strange]

@Adam Strange, This woman really does sound awesome. I’m so happy you’re in each other’s lives! I have good feelings about your future, re. meeting an eligible Dual who’s not a lesbian , though she certainly seems hard to find. But I love the richness of this relationship and how present it is in your life. This friendship and how much it means to you are inspiring! It makes me think about appreciating what's right in front of me, here, now (basically gratitude). I'm also single/longtime single so have thought about this theme quite a bit. It's almost like this friendship is preparing you for a romantic relationship with a Dual who is equally healthy and wonderful as she is. It warms my heart!

By the way, how did you make her acquaintance – it’s cool you’ve known each other for 10 years. There must be a good deal of trust there

@wonderwoman, Yes, there is a lot of trust.

I met her when my marriage was disintegrating. I was at a loss as to who I was, and so I started collecting art. Art that has meaning to me, because that enabled me to more clearly see who I am now by seeing what I like.

I was in the public library and there was a display of artworks by various artists, and of all the works, I liked one of them the most. I approached the librarian and asked to buy it. She said it wasn't for sale, but she could put me in touch with the artist.

The artist turned out to be this young woman at a school for gifted students in Ann Arbor, so through the library and the school, I wrote to her telling her I wanted to buy that artwork. She said it wasn't for sale, but she'd be happy to do a commissioned piece, and we should meet at a coffee shop downtown to talk about it.

The coffee shop was upscale, almost pretentious, but had good food next to a health food store, and I arrived early and got a table and waited for her.

I should say that at this point in my Socionics career, I was aware that my Duals were Fi-Se, but I had never consciously met one before, and Fi-Se with low Ni and lower Te sounds like a stripper to me. So I was still pretty ignorant of my Duals.

When the artist arrived, I took one look at her and was terrified. She was tall, athletically thin, had long blond hair and blue eyes and was wearing flip-flops, jeans that could not be legally any shorter, a thin pink band of elastic cloth around her top supported by two string straps, and was totally unlike any woman I would ever talk to.

Because I walk a fairly narrow line in my acquaintances, and because I have an unfortunate tendency to say things that turn out to be psycho-sexually inappropriate in most company, I immediately went into defense mode. Because she was so different from all the women I know how to interact with, I was fully expecting to be having a normal conversation with her, then I'd say something inadvertently that outraged her, she'd throw the coffee in my face and I'd leave that coffee shop in handcuffs.

Instead, she sat down and hung her purse on the chair back and we started to talk. What could I possibly have in common with this woman? I had no idea, but two and a half hours later, the convo had ranged from the history of art in the middle ages to the influence of architecture on political movements and the subjective experience of colors.

When she said she had another appointment, but we should talk again later about exactly what I want, she bounced up and bounced out, and I was left to integrate the experience. I gradually began to ask myself if she might be one of these women whom Socionics calls a "Dual". I mean, she strictly met all the descriptions and was still totally unlike anything that I expected.

I'd just had no experience then with a Dual. I'd read the descriptions, but the reality was completely different.

Honestly, she was so far from what I was expecting, from what I had ever expected, and yet was so easy to get along with, that I thought I'd see what the world thought of her. I found a picture of an ESI who looked similar to her and showed it to my LII sister, and gave her a description of my Duals.
My sister said, "If you bring a woman like that home with you, the family will disown you."
Lol.
Well, fuck my family.

[Adam Strange]

The lesbian ESI interior designer’s mother is an EIE therapist. I’ve met her and while I think she’s nice, I really have no desire to interact with her. I’ve not had great luck in my relationships with EIEs. We’re both too much alike and too different at the same time.

The ESI and I were sorting through my book collection and found a book on psycho-sexual disorders. Don’t ask me why I have that book. All everyone wants to talk about are the psycho-sexual murders. But my day job is Parking Lot Attendant.

I looked at the book and said, “Discard pile.”

She read the cover and said, “Maybe my mother would like this book.”

”Then it’s yours,” I said. “Why would she want that book?”

”She’s a sex therapist.”

”What? I thought she was just a therapist.”

”No, she helps people with sex problems.”

I thought about that for a minute. “What kind of sex problems?”

She looked at me impatiently. “I don’t know. All kinds.”

”Hmmm,” I thought. I have a sex problem in that I’m not having sex with her lesbian daughter.
”Maybe I should talk to her.”

”NO!”

”No? Why not?”

The ESI was fighting down panic. Maybe she can see into me sometimes, but that works both ways.

Inside her head she was frantically reaching for a reason and found one. “Because that would be totally unethical.”

”Unethical?”

”Yes.” She was back on the smooth road. “It would be totally unethical for me to be involved with one of her clients.”

Are we “involved”, I wondered, and smiled. ESIs don’t give much away.

”I could totally recommend some very competent therapists in the area if you need one,” she said, neatly.

”No thanks. I don’t actually have any sex problems. I don’t feel any shame and I’m pretty practical about what I want.”

”Oh. OK.”

She put the book on her “Take with” stack but, really, what doesn't an EIE already know about psycho-sexual disorders?