I think some SLE like this in a way...The ...how do I say this without sounding creepy...the having to slow down and read you and your needs. It's an exciting opportunity/project/puzzle....Originally Posted by BandD
I think some SLE like this in a way...The ...how do I say this without sounding creepy...the having to slow down and read you and your needs. It's an exciting opportunity/project/puzzle....
This is a further derail of the thread, but would you mind elaborating on what you mean by the bolded? Isn't this just a human thing? The rest I understand (and agree with).
Ip-types and to a lesser extent Ejs seem to have belief or faith that certain information that they possess is sacrosanct; this drives their behaviour and obsessions. Ijs and Eps don't seem to hold onto information so dearly so, down deep, they're not as convinced that they're right although many will put on a good show. Ips seem to compare everything to their base, which is fine so long as the information is correct and doesn't have bias but what is the chance of no bias whatsoever. However, this form of closed-loop processing permits them to function better than others in some very chaotic situations. There's a side effect to this stable core in that it seems to spawn the best critics - and more than a few bigots.
a.k.a. I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 06-14-2020 at 09:18 AM.
Interesting, thanks for clarifying. Is this coming from personal observation, something commonly noted among Ip types, or a mixture of both? I would have thought it would be slightly the opposite with introverted irrationals vs rationals. I know an EII who was pretty "bigoted" I guess you could say and even championed a few causes in college that she's embarrassed by now, while I've always felt a lot less certain than her. I attributed that to being intuitive base, while her dominant Fi tends to come off as extremely sure/critical in her viewpoints. Comparing everything to one's base seems like a good description of how she runs everything through Fi--don't we all do this with our dominant function?
@Emily I didn't suggest that Ips were the only bigots or critics. Their processing structure is just well suited for comparative analysis so they tend to make the most effective critics - and bigots. All the Ips that I've met were critical at their cores. EXIs are typically very sure of their rationale but not their information; they tend to doubt information in general but because they're output oriented, they often have to say "damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" - while XEIs will often say "whoops torpedoes" while they're already going full speed ahead on assumptions.
a.k.a. I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 06-15-2020 at 11:41 AM. Reason: needed clarity
No worries, I didn't think you were suggesting they were the only bigots/critics, but saying they seemed wired to be the best ones caught my eye since I've known EII/LII to be pretty strong critics (IEI and ILI too, though). I need to ponder what you wrote a bit more, I think.
@Emily EXIs tend to preach while LXIs tend to lecture; they aren't usually critical in a dynamic sense; and most of them will have to think about things a lot before they offer a criticism but once they've done that, some can argue quite convincingly. Ips (and Ejs less so) seem to be able to do it on the fly because they carry their info base (the ammo) with them while Ijs (and Eps to a lesser extent) often have to create a new reference from scratch because they tend to discard information once it's served its purpose.
a.k.a. I/O
How are IEIs critics? �� The only critical IEI I have seen was Justin Taylor in the Queer as Folk series who was gay and was fighting for his preference. But that is an American and exaggerated show
Hmm. What does "they aren't critical in a dynamic sense" mean? My EII friend doesn't seem to have to think too hard before she utters a pronouncement, haha. I bite my tongue a lot more and wouldn't say I'm able to offer criticism on the fly. ILI often can, yes, if they actually have the desire to engage.
Ijs don't think well on their feet. They may appear so if they've researched and are fully up to speed on a subject but throwing in something from left field will often cause them to say something that amounts to "I'll get back to you" or "la, la, la, I can't hear you"; some will try to fake it but they don't do well at that either. However, EIIs in their wheelhouse with prepared sermons can be really preachy and formidable. Ips operate the best on their feet, faking it and rolling with the punches but they can have tunnel vision with very narrow interests and perspectives. IEIs tend to not offer opinions but they certainly have them in spades and will voice them in endless chatter when in safe environments; EIIs tend to have much broader perspectives and are usually not as sensitive to their immediate environments.
a.k.a. I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 06-17-2020 at 08:38 PM.
A strange thing happened with my ESI neighbor and I can’t quite figure it out.
He and I have been neighbors for about five years. We don’t talk much, but he’s an OK guy. When he first bought the place, it was just him and his (ESI, I think) daughter. Last year he was going to get married and sell the place and move in with his new wife, but she called it off. He has seemed kind of depressed since then but hasn’t really said anything about it. I have been sympathetic but not to the point of telling him he needs to find a female LIE. I mean, why tell him that his ideal match is almost nonexistent?
Anyway, I had some work done on my property today and one of the machines had to drive onto his property. I talked to him first about this and he seemed wary but willing to let them do that. So they did. I was there while the work was being done and the workers were really careful but I couldn’t watch everything all the time.
This evening he sent me a picture of his boat. The hitch had been bumped and knocked off of its supporting block. He texted “Your guys hit my boat. I’ll check for damage in the morning.”
I immediately wrote back and apologized and said I’d pay for any damages.
But looking at the picture, it looks like nothing. I mean, the workers got a lot accomplished but also managed to break an electrical junction box on my property and although that set me back I didn’t whine about it. Ninety-nine percent of what they did was great.
So I don’t mind paying for any damages to his boat. I should, if there are any. But his reaction surprised me. Today set me back about $3k and it was nothing. His boat gets bumped and he’s complaining. To me, this seems petty and an overreaction, but maybe I’m wrong. Now I’m trying to understand this.
He and I are Duals, I’m pretty sure. We get along better than most people. Is he feeling neglected in his life? Does he need attention from someone who is basically on his side? Does the bumping of his boat represent some kind of transgression onto his domain? Do Aggressor ESI’s hate it when someone steps on their toes? What is the essence of what is going on here?
Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-18-2020 at 05:01 AM.
@Adam Strange ESIs don't usually like their space encroached upon or violated in any way. They may allow it but not really like it and normally they'll respect the space of others in the same way that they want their space to be treated. Ijs, in general, tend to be like this - islands unto themselves. They seem to desire complete autonomy in their space and will allow you yours so long as you don't cross the boundary. The behaviour seems to be linked more to self determination than possessiveness although sometimes they make it hard to distinguish. Ejs tend to be mentally intrusive so can be good stimulation for Ijs; however, even duals shouldn't step on Ij blue suede shoes.
a.k.a. I/O
Last edited by Rebelondeck; 06-18-2020 at 10:47 AM.
^ this is the truth.
Timber, you and my neighbor are a lot alike.
You know, this makes closing the distance with my Duals very challenging.
I actually think my ESI neighbor is an e6, not counterphobic. A guy driven by fears and doubts. He watched me interacting with a bunch of workmen and I told him that one of the guys in particular was a great worker, and now he's saying "Your guys bumped my boat and what are you going to do about it?", which really means "Am I still important to you? What are you going to do about this?"
ESI's come in three flavors; e4, e6, and e9. I'm most attracted to the e6's, but man, they can be pains sometimes with their constant running away and constant doubts.
I just bought another artwork from an e6w7 counter-phobic ESI-Se Artist whose work I like a lot, and she was talking about a previous work that she'd done, one of her best, and she told me that some offhand remark I'd made about colors indicated to her that I really didn't like the piece. Girl, if I didn't like it, I wouldn't buy it. WTF?
I find that my e8-ness can easily assuage her e6 fears, and no matter how panicky she is when we meet, she calms right down after talking with me. I've been hoping that she would calm down enough to stick around. I'm starting to think that this might never happen.
Honestly, sounds like a total pain in the ass. Why do you torture yourself with such people? e2 are great, but I'd take e4 or e9 over e6 any day. I think 1 and 6 would be least interesting for me.
I wouldn't attribute the themes in the first line above to ESIs more than some other types; there must be other factors. They don't usually look to others for validation like Ips and Ejs might do.
The themes in the second line can be very much ESI because they are sensitive to criticism (mostly for self-improvement) and are often hesitant to start something.
a.k.a. I/O
Good question, @Northstar. Aside from the fact that the e6 ESI Artist is physically beautiful, I was struck by how easily my e8-ness (stable, confident energy) stabilizes her e6-ness (fear and doubt). It's the same as where Duals help each other naturally just by being themselves.
I'm just having a problem with it as a steady diet.
This dissonance might just be the gears grinding in the early parts of a relationship. The LSI was also an e6, but less obviously fearful. She once asked me "Do you like me?". Lol, of all the questions she could have asked, that was about the easiest to answer.
I was married to an SLI e1. Never again. And the e4's that I've met have mostly been the IEI variety, and entirely dismissable. I think my long term male ESI friends have been e9's. But they can seem safe and boring.
IDK. I need more data.
I knew an engineer in Ford Advanced Vehicles who told me that Ford had done a decades long study to try to discover what made a car "fun to drive". Their conclusions were that the car had to feel somewhat unstable.
I think the same applies to GF's.
Now whether that is what you want for long term use or not, that is a question that only the driver can determine. All of my Mercedes have been as exciting to drive as sitting on my couch, and this is by design, because *German voice* "It is not efficient to arrive at your destination exhausted from too much excitement."
Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-18-2020 at 02:22 PM.
My ESI neighbor was making a racket mowing his lawn, so I walked over and apologized in person for the fact that my workmen had bumped his boat.
He said that he looked at it very carefully and there was no damage, and he appreciated the fact that I offered to pay for any damages (and when he said this, he was watching my face very intently to see if I was lying or if I really meant it - Lol) and I should forget it. He said “I’m past that now.”
I said, “No, you shouldn’t be “past it”. You should be happy and satisfied about it.”
”Well, I am. There was no damage, so forget about it. I have.”
I then asked him about his plans for the future. I had heard he was going to get married but then that changed.
”I’m not going to move any time soon.”, he said, misinterpreting my question. “And I called it off with that girl. There was something just not right about the whole relationship. She could be very critical at times, and I just didn’t want to live with that.”
”You know, I’ve said before that you and I are Duals.”
”Yeah, you mentioned something about that.” He looked embarrassed, as if he found himself talking to someone he liked who had just revealed that he was crazy.
”Well, males of my type are fairly rare. But females of my type are almost nonexistent. Maybe one percent of the population. One of the good things about us as Duals is that we kind of live in a “no criticism” zone. But to find one, you have to know what you’re looking for. Here. Let me show you pictures of a couple of females who are your Duals. I’ve got them on my phone, if you’ve got a minute.”
”I’ve got about one minute, then I have to get back to cutting this lawn...”
”Here’s one”, I said, showing him a picture of a dark haired beauty whom I met at a science fair. She was smiling with her logic showing in the first picture, and then was looking slightly impatient in the second picture.
”See how logical she looks? And she’s not that friendly. Your Duals are not that friendly, compared to most women.”
I then showed him a picture of another female LIE, a woman I’ve known for eight years. “See? She looks like a business hard-ass in the first picture but at least she’s looking neutral and all business. Here in the second picture she’s looking pissed off because she doesn’t like having her picture taken, not even by me.”
My ESI neighbor said, “Those women look almost exactly alike.”
”Exactly!”, I said. “You can identify them visually if you know what you are looking for. That’s why I showed you these pictures.”
”Well, I have a new GF that lives fifteen miles from here and she’s pretty good. We’ll see how that goes.”
”Hopefully, it will be great.”
”OK, I’ve gotta finish the lawn.”
”Talk to you later. Good luck.”
”See you.”
He's probably thinking you're crazy or at least weird. Can't think of a more closed-minded type than ESI.
No doubt. But I have a secret weapon in the relationship. I’m his Dual. He can’t help liking me. He doesn’t even know why he likes me. He just feels it. Lol.
All I have to do is be myself, show that I care about his feelings a bit (but only a bit. I’m not great at this, and if the theory holds, he expects exactly this retarded level of response) and we should be good.
One of the reasons he gave for breaking it off with his previous GF was she started lying to him. Personally, I find it impossible to lie. Except by omission. I can mislead by omission. Weirdly enough, my LSI ex-GF also thought that lying was a deal breaker. She was Mirage, which is half-Dual and half Extinguishment. Evidently the ‘no lying’ thing is 3D Se and 2D Ni.
I met his daughter when I dropped off a check for him for the electric bill (it’s a long story). I told him I think that she and he have the same personality types.
He said, “Maybe.”
I said, “Yeah, you can see it in her face. She has this kind of soft look. Not logical. Not that she doesn’t think. She thinks all the time. But what she’s thinking about...” I pointed accusingly at his house and squinted, to imitate her look “....is, “Is this guy doing the right thing?””.
He burst out laughing and nodded.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 06-22-2020 at 01:02 PM.
One other thing about my ESI neighbor. I was telling him a story about the female ESI I dated. The one who, twenty minutes after meeting her, told me “We should go out sometime for a burger and a beer, but no sex.”
Which absolutely floored me. I mean, who says that? It was so weird that I ran it past an ESI buddy I‘ve known for thirty years. He said, “Yeah. The sex is the next day.”
I thought, That’s interesting. That’s actually astounding. I would never have thought that.
So I told the same story to my ESI neighbor. He laughed and said “Yeah, the sex is the next day.”
What do you know? There are only sixteen people.
*EDIT*
Regarding that ESI who went out with me once and refuses to go out again, I know she likes me. She was flirting with me in phone texts. But she refuses to go out. Maybe she thinks the second date has required sex? And she doesn’t want to get involved with me?
IDK. It’s a puzzle.
In my experience it's just that relationships and boundaries and honor mean a lot to them, and saying something like, "I am so happy you told me about this because it matters to me that your boat was bumped." is a good idea.
It's more just like making you aware of a contact that may have done something.. He opened up his property to your contractors. It's a vulnerability, etc. He may just be checking in, etc. Doesn't mean anything is wrong.
I wonder whether it just seems so....
I've been reading about that in ENTJ and Enneagram 7 articles...and then recognizing it in my desires about a partner. I grew up with an enneagram 4 and have several enneagram 4s and 6s in my life....and a few sevens. I think I get bored without some intense stuff going on. I kinda like being needed (not like by a drug addict, but like someone who's kinda sensitive and confides in me). I love that feeling.
Maybe tell the isfj you're overworking and need to relax and have more in your life than work. Make it about your trying to not be a workaholic. Then just act like a stumped Type A toddler (which, let's be honest, is what we entjs are in human relationships), and kinda stare off in a planning but stuck Ni way, and.... they organize your social outing. Works for me.
I don't know what you're implying - because my comments were predicated by the word "seem(s)"? Little in Socionics is really what it seems.
a.k.a. I/O
Female ESI-Se to male LIE-Te: "You should study buddhism."
Male LIE-Te to Female ESI-Se: "Why? My ex took me to a Buddhist temple and we spent weeks learning to meditate. I was bored out of my mind. We were sitting for hours on pillows in the dark, surrounded by candles, and I almost went nuts. There were a million productive things I could have been doing but wasn't. I don't have an internal dialogue. There's no me inside me. It's all just what you see. Except when the little plant I was growing got murdered by those fucking rodents. That was bad. I'm gonna kill those bastards. But aside from that, there's nothing. So why should I try to meditate? I don't get it."
Female ESI-Se to male LIE-Te: "It would make you sympathetic to other people's feelings and less of an asshole."
Great. Just great.
@Adam Strange next time you see her just tell her you are special. no context needed. it works.
"I'm special"? This really works? Seems incomprehensible, but OK, I'll take your word for it. I'll try it.
I have almost zero expectations of anything "working" with this woman. She's about 44, never been married, her Imago is guys like her SLI father (who are always a day late, a mile away, & passive aggressive) and she says she has narcissistic injury and she's happy being by herself. She's known me for about four years and is not interested. The odds of her having any BF, much less me, are about the same as that egg that fell off the table jumping back up and reassembling. However, I'll tell her that I'm special next time I talk to her.
Thanks for the advice. I'm always ready to try new things.
i changed my mind. don't tell her you are special.
OK, I won't.
In truth, I'm not that special, anyway, and I think it's best to stick with the truth. The only thing I have going is that I'm LIE and she's ESI, and everything else is a train wreck.
I'll tell you what my problem is. I missed the boat a long time ago. And now that I've figured out my destination, the docks are empty.
@Adam Strange, some thoughts on the supposed lack of internal dialogue: Do you have second-order thoughts/underlying beliefs when you talk to her? E.g. ''if I say this bit and this bit, she will get it''. IMO this is internal dialogue.
“placeholder until I can get back to this.”
Dude, I highly doubt that.there are so many options
In truth, I'm not that special, anyway, and I think it's best to stick with the truth. The only thing I have going is that I'm LIE and she's ESI, and everything else is a train wreck.
I'll tell you what my problem is. I missed the boat a long time ago. And now that I've figured out my destination, the docks are empty.
Well, she totally sounds sympathetic to other people's feelings...
Last edited by Ave; 07-19-2020 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Italics
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I was texting with this female ESI on a dating site to find out more about her. She went through a bitter divorce and was devastated when her husband, who married her right after she got her nursing degree, told her that he had never liked her and was leaving her for a younger woman. Harsh.
In an attempt to get her to see her situation from a larger perspective and to get her to let go of her feeling of being the victim of an exploiter (thanks, Strat!), I asked her what she missed most about her ex.
I know what a 22 yo would say, but this woman is a bit older.
She said, “He mowed the lawn.” Lol.
I told her I couldn't help her with that. Mowing lawns is a waste of my time, and I try to hire that out.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-01-2020 at 04:57 PM.
but that's more about what was nice in their dynamic, not what she thinks is ideal necessarily
Yeah, if the guy never really liked her and just exploited her, then I seriously doubt that they were having an ideal relationship dynamic. Some people take a wrong turn from childhood misdirection, get lost in dark lands, and never realize it.
After I started talking to her, she changed her self-summary on the dating site from something like "Want to go on a road trip" to
Never apologize for being yourself.
There's something amazing about people who are freely themselves.
Looking for communication, sharing values, trust and honesty, humor, friendship and emotional intelligence.
Lol. Duality. Accept no substitutes.
Now if only she didn't live two and a half hours away.
i date across the ocean or across the hallway.
2.5 hours is not a big constraint. you can handle it
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