INFjs - letting off steam

[Smilingeyes]

So I'm going out with this INFj lady. She'd invited me to a certain party that took place last Saturday. I'd been travelling around so I had to drive a couple of hours to get there. At the party she tells me she doesn't want to spend any time with me there because she doesn't want to appear cute in public. Later I tell her I'll be going early and she asks me to stay. Even later I tell her that I'll be away in business for about a week. She moans that she's sad about how she never gets to see me. I get tired at the party and fall asleep and when I wake up I find her cuddling next to me. Later I need to go and she tries to make me stay longer. I finally go and read her blog the next day. She's feeling depressed because she thinks we see each other too often.

INFjs... You're all fucking nuts you know.

And still I can't but love you.
Fuck.

[anndelise]

So I'm going out with this INFj lady. She'd invited me to a certain party that took place last Saturday. I'd been travelling around so I had to drive a couple of hours to get there. At the party she tells me she doesn't want to spend any time with me there because she doesn't want to appear cute in public. Later I tell her I'll be going early and she asks me to stay. Even later I tell her that I'll be away in business for about a week. She moans that she's sad about how she never gets to see me. I get tired at the party and fall asleep and when I wake up I find her cuddling next to me. Later I need to go and she tries to make me stay longer. I finally go and read her blog the next day. She's feeling depressed because she thinks we see each other too often.

INFjs... You're all fucking nuts you know.

And still I can't but love you.
Fuck.

I haven't gotten that from an INFj yet. It's the kind of stuff I've come to expect from ESFjs though.

[April]

Yeah, that's weird...

Does she know that you read her blog? Maybe she was feeling rejected because you had to leave her (not really rational, but hey, crap like that happens in relationships). She may have wanted to express her independence. Have you asked her about this discrepancy? It's hard for INFjs to talk about their feelings for other people if it's not clearly reciprocated. Maybe she doesn't want to admit how much she likes you, and she's acting weird because of it. I don't really know.

[Jimbean]

women= (sometimes)

[meatburger]

She sounds like shes nuts. I would have said, well im breaking up with you as i dont want to appear cute in public with you either.

[FDG]

Ordinary stuff.

[Smilingeyes]

Yeah, that's weird...

I don't actually find it strange anymore. I've seen this very same behaviour from two other INFjs so I've gotten kind of used to it. (one of them was uncertain, might have been another type).

Does she know that you read her blog? Maybe she was feeling rejected because you had to leave her (not really rational, but hey, crap like that happens in relationships).

Does, and might be. She's a very intuitive version of INFj and paradoxical thinking is an attribute of abstract Ne. I don't think she was changing her mind constantly, more like she has know idea what she wanted in the first place. She even went as far as to say that directly.

She may have wanted to express her independence. Have you asked her about this discrepancy? It's hard for INFjs to talk about their feelings for other people if it's not clearly reciprocated. Maybe she doesn't want to admit how much she likes you, and she's acting weird because of it. I don't really know.

Yes, she's having relationship anxiety. Which is kind of a good thing because at least it means she's come to the conclusion that we are infact having one. As for my feelings she's more like slightly afraid of how intensely I seem to like her. . . Which is funny because myself I think I've never been such a cold fish in a relationship. (Yet she likes exactly that part.) Even fully expecting that because of previous experience and socionics I'm still finding it surprising. So yes, she's not admitting to others or herself that she really likes me, because that would curtail her freedom. A fine analysis, April. I say thankya.

@meatburger
my ENFp confidante has been of the opinion that I always pick the crazy ones. Of course I've gone mostly out with INFjs and INTjs so there's socionics for you.

@anndelise
That's sort of interesting. It does ring true though. Maybe there's something about being ... I don't know, a positive judicious feeler that makes one confusing? *shrug*

[meatburger]

Maybe shes thinking. Holy shit Smiling eyes could be the one. This means he could be the last person i ever have sex with.

I was thinking the same thing myself the other day if i met my dual lol

What i said earlier was probablly said when i was in a funny mood. Maybe its a power thing, she doesn't want to relinquish her power very soon.

[schrödinger's cat]

Or crappy ? (Note: that's just an impression, not the result of a painstaking process of thought.) Weak -->not good at seeing the impact of one's actions (or facial expressions or whatever), and weak --> inconsistency?

The one INFj I've typed so far is in a stormy relationship, and she'll tell me what her bf did, or didn't and should have done, and how she pointed it out to him, and how he reacted all defensive and couldn't see her point at all, and now it's been three days but he hasn't called. And I'll go "gosh, that sounds terrible." And then she'll say "yeah, and after our quarrel I told him 'go, go now, and do it as fast as you can', I'm beginning to think that didn't exactly help..."

[stefana]

...........

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

Ordinary stuff.

my estp says this about any sort of relationship prolem. then i come back trying to back up that its an important issue but i know he's right lol

[Smilingeyes]

Maybe shes thinking. Holy shit Smiling eyes could be the one. This means he could be the last person i ever have sex with. .

Hope so. 'Could be' sounds ever so much better than 'would be' in that sentence .

What i said earlier was probablly said when i was in a funny mood. Maybe its a power thing, she doesn't want to relinquish her power very soon.

Again, I think you're right, and her doing that is fine by me. I love her free spirit thing. It's just that despite the 'all innocent' appearance she does tend to cause some damage and some of her suggestions are self-defeating. I mean I take most of her suggestions quite literally and tend to believe her and this appears to be entirely the wrong way to do it as she's completely irresponsible. Yet I don't want to belittle her either and that is something that she really hates, so I end up taking it in the chin rather more often than I deserve to. But hey, a man's got to do what a man's got to do.

The one INFj I've typed so far is in a stormy relationship, and she'll tell me what her bf did, or didn't and should have done, and how she pointed it out to him, and how he reacted all defensive and couldn't see her point at all, and now it's been three days but he hasn't called. And I'll go "gosh, that sounds terrible." And then she'll say "yeah, and after our quarrel I told him 'go, go now, and do it as fast as you can', I'm beginning to think that didn't exactly help..."

And the literal minded ESTj will either go or stop just to ask 'but for how long a time, dear?' Though that's all right by me as well. That's just... ordinary. What really bugs me is that after they sort of start to feel guilty and long to get you back, after they sort of get the idea that they might have done something wrong and maybe owe an apology or something, they never act on it. They just sit down and mope for a while, which benefits me none.

My shadow can't help but wants to see SmilingEyes go nuts. (just joking)

So what are you going to do now?

I thought I'd be an ESTj and do some work. It's the answer to everything. I also started to read 'Pride and prejudice' to get some relationship advice. ... ... Maybe I should watch 'My fair lady' too?

[cracka]

The one INFj I've typed so far is in a stormy relationship, and she'll tell me what her bf did, or didn't and should have done, and how she pointed it out to him, and how he reacted all defensive and couldn't see her point at all, and now it's been three days but he hasn't called. And I'll go "gosh, that sounds terrible." And then she'll say "yeah, and after our quarrel I told him 'go, go now, and do it as fast as you can', I'm beginning to think that didn't exactly help..."

And the literal minded ESTj will either go or stop just to ask 'but for how long a time, dear?' Though that's all right by me as well. That's just... ordinary. What really bugs me is that after they sort of start to feel guilty and long to get you back, after they sort of get the idea that they might have done something wrong and maybe owe an apology or something, they never act on it. They just sit down and mope for a while, which benefits me none.

Then the next day the ESTJ (since they'd be the person that will take action to fix the misunderstanding) calls or comes over and says, "how's it goin?" like nothing ever happened because they know the person only meant to go away at that time and knew the INFJ's feelings when it happened. At which point the INFJ starts apologizing and the ESTJ says: "It's ok babe, you wanna get lunch?"

[schrödinger's cat]

Does that mean the ESTj-INFj duality is even weirder that way than the ENFp-ISTp one?

[Smilingeyes]

Then the next day the ESTJ (since they'd be the person that will take action to fix the misunderstanding) calls or comes over and says, "how's it goin?" like nothing ever happened because they know the person only meant to go away at that time and knew the INFJ's feelings when it happened. At which point the INFJ starts apologizing and the ESTJ says: "It's ok babe, you wanna get lunch?"

That's probably correct, yet it feels like a cop out and unfair. I'm feeling like I should act some kind of a calculated fury reaction so I can come back with a tail between my legs, being the 'offending party', because if I'm the offended party I feel like I should never come back, because I have no reason to. Why would I want to continually be the receiving party of abuse? The answer of course is that because I _need_ the INFj but I also need some kind of... fairness. Bah. I'll try to vent this at her instead of the forum next time. If socionics holds true she'll just be delighted at me getting the rage on.

(Still the happiest relationship I've been in.)

[Smilingeyes]

Does that mean the ESTj-INFj duality is even weirder that way than the ENFp-ISTp one?

What do you mean? Sure, it's pretty freaky, but so are all dual couples.

[schrödinger's cat]

I was so aware of how weird the ENFp-INFj duality is that it was a surprise to discover the ESTj-INFj kind of weirdness. For some reason I thought that duality would be more... normal? Even-tempered? Something like that.

[FDG]

I was so aware of how weird the ENFp-INFj duality is that it was a surprise to discover the ESTj-INFj kind of weirdness. For some reason I thought that duality would be more... normal? Even-tempered? Something like that.

I am still somewhat puzzled, because some description of duality seem to emphazise the pure compatibility between the types, whereas some others seem to be more centered towards the possible lack of agreement. Possibily, the difference might have its roots in the positivism/negativism preference of the socionist himslef.

Recently, I read that ENFp-ISTp is the most difficult, and it's the ISTp that with its criticalness-gloominess dooms the relationship. However, IME ISTp Si subtype are pretty positive people. Second in difficulty came ENTj-ISFj, where the ENTj was said to cause trouble in the stability of the relationship due to his love for freedom. Among the easiest, ENTp-ISFp and ENFj-ISTj.

[meatburger]

. Yet I don't want to belittle her either and that is something that she really hates, so I end up taking it in the chin rather more often than I deserve to. But hey, a man's got to do what a man's got to do

This is the perfect and mature way to handle it i think at this stage. Let her run her course of emotions. Then when she settles down she will realise where your comming from and will return to a healty state

[Smilingeyes]

Discussed.
Found the fairness (well, sort of).
Everything happy now.
Until the next storm of course.
Happiness. Tired.

[Minde]

The answer of course is that because I _need_ the INFj...

What is it that an ESTj needs from an INFj? I can see how it would make life nicer for an INFj to have an ESTj around, but what use is an INFj?


Though the original problem is resolved (perhaps), I had another thought. Maybe she's unconsciously testing to see how much you care. To use an analogy, when I was first learning to walk, I'd often follow my mother about, holding on to the string. My mom says that it comforted me to occasionally tug on the string, just to know that she was still there. Perhaps it's something similar. Maybe she (unintentionally?) puts some tension into your relationship just so she can pull a little and feel you pulling back on the other end. And just like I outgrew my habit, she might outgrow hers.



BTW, <3 Smilex!

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[olduser]

Most sensors need partners with ideas/dreams/abstract goals. With NF-ST it can sometimes work like this: The NF knows what he/she wants. Let's say he/she bought a plastic silverware holder and it doesn't fit in the intended drawer. The ST will fix the silverware holder using the tools at his disposal.

Ahaha, and-- The NT advises the SF before he/she makes a purchase of such magnitude. The NT measures the drawer and gives the SF an idea of 'what's within reason.'

I think NT-SF is a little more balanced in terms of providing. They are more equals. ST-NF couples are stereotypically tilted towards the ST providing materially, and the NF being a feeling machine.

You can take a lot from that, but know I don't say it definitely. I'm using very vague, but common stereotypes found in society and applying them to archetypes that amass great breadth-- the socionics temperaments.

Also, let's not forget those people who walk among us that don't care about having a nice home. The sort of people who throw their silverware on the floor when it's clean. Goddamn animals.

[UDP]

Good post. I agree with much. Especially about those goddamn animals.

[Smilingeyes]

The answer of course is that because I _need_ the INFj...

What is it that an ESTj needs from an INFj? I can see how it would make life nicer for an INFj to have an ESTj around, but what use is an INFj?

I think most of the magic lies in that I don't know. If it was something quantifiable, an ESTj would find a way to make-do without it. From what I've seen INFjs tend to have no frigging clue about what they want / are good for in life. I think that's a big part of the attraction. Thing is, ESTjs can provide the best utilitarian value of any and all types, but if all values are only utilitarian, in relation to being beneficial to something else, where does the real value come from? There has to be something absolute and pure which justifies all the work done in its name. Why does the ESTj work so much? Why does he carry on living despite that being an ESTj can really suck. Could it be that what he wants is simply hope? Watching something prosper, something grow...

But I don't know.

Though the original problem is resolved (perhaps), I had another thought. Maybe she's unconsciously testing to see how much you care. To use an analogy, when I was first learning to walk, I'd often follow my mother about, holding on to the string. My mom says that it comforted me to occasionally tug on the string, just to know that she was still there. Perhaps it's something similar. Maybe she (unintentionally?) puts some tension into your relationship just so she can pull a little and feel you pulling back on the other end. And just like I outgrew my habit, she might outgrow hers.

Could be. I see something like that there.

BTW, <3 Smilex!

*confused happy*

[cracka]

I think most of the magic lies in that I don't know. If it was something quantifiable, an ESTj would find a way to make-do without it. From what I've seen INFjs tend to have no frigging clue about what they want / are good for in life. I think that's a big part of the attraction. Thing is, ESTjs can provide the best utilitarian value of any and all types, but if all values are only utilitarian, in relation to being beneficial to something else, where does the real value come from? There has to be something absolute and pure which justifies all the work done in its name. Why does the ESTj work so much? Why does he carry on living despite that being an ESTj can really suck. Could it be that what he wants is simply hope? Watching something prosper, something grow...

ESTJ's appreciate hard work in themselves and all they really want from society as a whole is to be appreciated and make others happy.

ps. being an ESTJ doesn't always suck...lol :wink: I know you're one most of the time right?

[science as magic]

that actually sounds rather appealing. lately i have been finding myself insanely attracted to infjs though, perhaps to the extent that it is making me respond positively to text descriptions of infjs that may not even be infjs

[Minde]

but what use is an INFj?

I'm sure there's some use for us! :wink:

Very likely, but I have yet to find one. "Omnivorous tastes" indeed. As my ENTp (I think) friend is wont to say, "Jack of all trades, and master of none." As of right now, I think all I'm useful for is dabbling in the various branches of human knowledge, and puttering around trying to help out the occasional poor soul or deserving cause. That and playing chauffeur for friends and siblings.

I think most of the magic lies in that I don't know. If it was something quantifiable, an ESTj would find a way to make-do without it. From what I've seen INFjs tend to have no frigging clue about what they want / are good for in life.

Hmm, wow. I just described something like that.

I think that's a big part of the attraction. Thing is, ESTjs can provide the best utilitarian value of any and all types, but if all values are only utilitarian, in relation to being beneficial to something else, where does the real value come from? There has to be something absolute and pure which justifies all the work done in its name. Why does the ESTj work so much? Why does he carry on living despite that being an ESTj can really suck. Could it be that what he wants is simply hope? Watching something prosper, something grow...

So, ESTjs need to be needed?

How about the occasional hug and shy smile?

BTW, <3 Smilex!

*confused happy*

Just means that I like you lots. I enjoy your posts very much (even if some of them give me a headache).

This is as good a place as any to say it.

[Smilingeyes]

puttering around

<3 puttering

So, ESTjs need to be needed?

Uh, I wouldn't put it quite like that. That makes it seem all dependency-like and that makes me squirm. I feel the need to be beneficial and approved, but not vital to a cause. If I'm really needed, then it's all about just me, and that doesn't seem correct.

How about the occasional hug and shy smile?

On an average day I'd change a set of tires, suture two open gashes and examine the ear infection of a 2-year old to get a hug and a shy smile, but only if the hug is really awkwardly enthousiastic.

Just means that I like you lots. I enjoy your posts very much (even if some of them give me a headache).

This is as good a place as any to say it.

Sorry about the headaches. Anything I could do to help them out?

[Minde]

puttering around

<3 puttering

Me, too. Though unfortunately it isn't useful in making a living. I'm going to have to grow up and find a real job one of these days.

So, ESTjs need to be needed?

Uh, I wouldn't put it quite like that. That makes it seem all dependency-like and that makes me squirm. I feel the need to be beneficial and approved, but not vital to a cause. If I'm really needed, then it's all about just me, and that doesn't seem correct.

Well, I don't want you to squirm, so let's try this: ESTjs like having someone around who can use and who appreciates their practical approach to life. In order to actually use that practicality, said someone must be somewhat impractical themselves. But it can't be just any old impracticality...

And that's as far as I've gotten. I'm assuming that since there are many impractical people in the world, there must be something else special about INFjs.

Perhaps because the quality of impracticality indicates a certain detachment from this world and an attachment to... something else?

How about the occasional hug and shy smile?

On an average day I'd change a set of tires, suture two open gashes and examine the ear infection of a 2-year old to get a hug and a shy smile, but only if the hug is really awkwardly enthousiastic.

Oh, I specialize in those.

Though, it hardly seems a fair trade.

Sorry about the headaches. Anything I could do to help them out?

Yes, as long as you don't mind answering a thousand-and-one questions.

[Smilingeyes]

Me, too. Though unfortunately it isn't useful in making a living. I'm going to have to grow up and find a real job one of these days.

That's what they say, I guess.

ESTjs like having someone around who can use and who appreciates their practical approach to life. In order to actually use that practicality, said someone must be somewhat impractical themselves. But it can't be just any old impracticality...

And that's as far as I've gotten. I'm assuming that since there are many impractical people in the world, there must be something else special about INFjs.

Perhaps because the quality of impracticality indicates a certain detachment from this world and an attachment to... something else?

Umm, yeah. Something like that. Of the types though, I do quite think that INFjs take the cake in impracticality, at least if it's understood as a synonym for ineffectiveness, I mean there are other types that are impractical through megalomania or aggressiveness or laziness, but they don't really, mmm, need help for that. It's mostly the ethical INFjs that sort of 'call out to me' in the 'there's a person I want to help' way, the intuitive ones are ... different, and don't really like the idea of being helped. Far too independent for that. Most people don't really appreciate people who want to help them, unless there's an emergency and the help is of significant worth. And I'm not certain what else ESTjs can offer, but help. And to survive, we need someone who appreciates that in us.

On an average day I'd change a set of tires, suture two open gashes and examine the ear infection of a 2-year old to get a hug and a shy smile, but only if the hug is really awkwardly enthousiastic.

Oh, I specialize in those.

Though, it hardly seems a fair trade.

Could be. But in the end, any trade that both participants agree to while knowing all the consequences, is fair. Or that's the philosophy I need to live by, anyway.

Sorry about the headaches. Anything I could do to help them out?

Yes, as long as you don't mind answering a thousand-and-one questions.

No, I don't. I'd be glad to help. Depending on the nature of questions of course I might need to think about the answers for a while and/or possibly answer through pm. But in general, I like it when people directly ask me to do things, giving answers included.

[April]

Of the types though, I do quite think that INFjs take the cake in impracticality, at least if it's understood as a synonym for ineffectiveness, I mean there are other types that are impractical through megalomania or aggressiveness or laziness, but they don't really, mmm, need help for that. It's mostly the ethical INFjs that sort of 'call out to me' in the 'there's a person I want to help' way, the intuitive ones are ... different, and don't really like the idea of being helped. Far too independent for that. Most people don't really appreciate people who want to help them, unless there's an emergency and the help is of significant worth. And I'm not certain what else ESTjs can offer, but help. And to survive, we need someone who appreciates that in us.

Huh. This is interesting. I think of myself as being fairly effective and pretty independent. I don't have a clear subtype, though. I think there's more to it than just subtypes. I guess this is hard for me to understand because I've been through a lot in my short years, which has required me to build upon all my weaknesses, and now I don't really like to depend on others.

Do you think you or other ESTjs would want to be with an INFj who didn't have this constant need for support? We could show appreciation for your strengths, devotion, and want to help, but not necessarily always show a need for it, right? Or would you feel like you weren't utilizing your strengths, thus not really feel good about yourself in the relationship?

[Topaz]

Of the types though, I do quite think that INFjs take the cake in impracticality, at least if it's understood as a synonym for ineffectiveness, I mean there are other types that are impractical through megalomania or aggressiveness or laziness, but they don't really, mmm, need help for that. It's mostly the ethical INFjs that sort of 'call out to me' in the 'there's a person I want to help' way, the intuitive ones are ... different, and don't really like the idea of being helped. Far too independent for that. Most people don't really appreciate people who want to help them, unless there's an emergency and the help is of significant worth. And I'm not certain what else ESTjs can offer, but help. And to survive, we need someone who appreciates that in us.

Huh. This is interesting. I think of myself as being fairly effective and pretty independent. I don't have a clear subtype, though. I think there's more to it than just subtypes. I guess this is hard for me to understand because I've been through a lot in my short years, which has required me to build upon all my weaknesses, and now I don't really like to depend on others.

Do you think you or other ESTjs would want to be with an INFj who didn't have this constant need for support? We could show appreciation for your strengths, devotion, and want to help, but not necessarily always show a need for it, right? Or would you feel like you weren't utilizing your strengths, thus not really feel good about yourself in the relationship?

Im not ESTJ but I would like to say; you just dont know what youre missing. Sure you could do it all yourself but if someone wanted to do all the things you find more difficult and be happy to do it.... I mean c'mon. It might feel weird at first and maybe you wouldnt want to trust someone to do stuff for you but once you realize what a blessing that is it would be all gravy. And it wouldnt be just one sided either. You'd be doing them a big favor just by being yourself.

(Youre right..... it sounds too good to be true)

[Smilingeyes]

Huh. This is interesting. I think of myself as being fairly effective and pretty independent. I don't have a clear subtype, though. I think there's more to it than just subtypes. I guess this is hard for me to understand because I've been through a lot in my short years, which has required me to build upon all my weaknesses, and now I don't really like to depend on others.

Skillwise of course INFj are no weaker than other types, why would they? And if forced to, sure they'll manage.

The essence of the subtype distinction is that the two functions: Fi and Ne are simply very very different. The distinction at it's farthest points is as large as that for two completely different types. Or you could see it as a journey, with one subtype being the beginning and the other the end. Accepting Te and Accepting Fi is what I described together. Creative Ne and Creative Si go together in a completely different way. If one can say that the two most fiercely independent functions go together at all. (and yes, of course they do, and in a way I quite like, but do not in fact appreciate (and that's an interesting distinction)...)

The INFj and the ESTj are the two types most in an aggressive pursuit of separation from the society. How do two people who fiercely seek independence go together? If there's to be a relationship at all, it needs to have a very firm base in Te-Fi and then you can rely on the other being there for the Ne-Si aspect of the relation.

Anyway, there's another way to see the relationship too, even the Te-Fi side of things. ESTj is the administrator and INFj the martyr. In a way, the strong opinions of the ESTj bind the INFj and force adaptation. The INFj being the only one able to manage the forceful ideas of the ESTj, the only one able to share the pressure. It's like an ideological reflection of the physicosexual Se-Ni Aggressive-Victim dimension. In this sense Fi has to sort of manage the forceful expressions of Te.

Do you think you or other ESTjs would want to be with an INFj who didn't have this constant need for support? We could show appreciation for your strengths, devotion, and want to help, but not necessarily always show a need for it, right? Or would you feel like you weren't utilizing your strengths, thus not really feel good about yourself in the relationship?

Umm, relationships aren't built on independence. The practical day to day interplay of the relationship isn't nearly as needy as I described it, but it's a case of the trust and strong bond in the relation allowing independent activities rather than the bond being based on this.

From another point of view, I've seen an INFj on a Fi-frenzy get six theoretically noninterested people try to help her with her computer troubles. Another strong-Fi type used to describe herself to me as 'a very small animal' (a reference to Piglet of A A Milne). She might as well have been ISFj though (never reached a firm conclusion).

There's lots more of course, it's not a simple type of relationship (what is), but I don't feel like writing more just now. (the following text actually being chronologically written prior to this)

...

I really had to debate myself whether to comment on the Ne-Si aspect of the relation separately but I guess it has to be done. Sensing ESxjs give a decent run for the money to ISxjs in being the most uncaring of all types. In a very physical sense the manage things excellently, but they have almost no vested interest in anything. Boredom, a moment's fancy, can be a massive force in their life. It's like having the word 'expendable' tattooed on your forehead. And then there's creative Ne, that gets the most strange, impractical ideas that are nevertheless the most supremely important to this particular person, and usually quite well-defined. And this importance can puff them up while simultaneously making them look completely silly. Again, I've had INFjs describe this to me as having moments of play-pretend or something like that. (INTjs OTOH being a couple of steps more pompous about this and completely losing sight of the fact that their grand revelation is of no interest to anyone else.) So the ESTj will try to amuse the INFj, create skillful trifles to amuse the INFj and the INFj will make suggestions about things one would like to see or experience but doubts are possible so that the ESTj can try and test their skills in the creation of these things. And the INFj will often be slightly disappointed at how what s/he thought s/he wanted to experience wasn't anything that special after all and the ESTj will be slightly disappointed at being unable to create something that mattered to the INFj. The INFj forgives and the ESTj tries harder the next time.

[Dioklecian]

I was so aware of how weird the ENFp-INFj duality is that it was a surprise to discover the ESTj-INFj kind of weirdness. For some reason I thought that duality would be more... normal? Even-tempered? Something like that.

Duality is an ENTP concept.

[Dioklecian]

pp

[April]

@Topaz
You're right. Possibly my working so hard to be uber-strong and eliminate all weakness has become my new weakness! Hehe. I should let people help me more. Thank you!


@Smilingeyes
Thank you. You answered my question and then even added some more wisdom on top of it! You're really on top of this stuff, huh?

I like your way of describing it here: "Umm, relationships aren't built on independence. The practical day to day interplay of the relationship isn't nearly as needy as I described it, but it's a case of the trust and strong bond in the relation allowing independent activities rather than the bond being based on this."

I can see now how the ESTj would offer valuable support and skills to the INFj. It's just not something I'm used to.


@Dioklecian
What do you mean about duality being an ENTp concept?

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Minde]

Anyway, there's another way to see the relationship too, even the Te-Fi side of things. ESTj is the administrator and INFj the martyr. In a way, the strong opinions of the ESTj bind the INFj and force adaptation. The INFj being the only one able to manage the forceful ideas of the ESTj, the only one able to share the pressure. It's like an ideological reflection of the physicosexual Se-Ni Aggressive-Victim dimension. In this sense Fi has to sort of manage the forceful expressions of Te.

So the ESTj will try to amuse the INFj, create skillful trifles to amuse the INFj and the INFj will make suggestions about things one would like to see or experience but doubts are possible so that the ESTj can try and test their skills in the creation of these things. And the INFj will often be slightly disappointed at how what s/he thought s/he wanted to experience wasn't anything that special after all and the ESTj will be slightly disappointed at being unable to create something that mattered to the INFj. The INFj forgives and the ESTj tries harder the next time.

Hmm, that's funny. In the first quote, it sounds like the ESTj has all the power. In the second, the INFj has more influence.

The INFj and the ESTj are the two types most in an aggressive pursuit of separation from the society.

That's interesting, too. I'm conservative and a traditionalist in many ways, but I definitely don't lockstep with the rest of the world. That gets me into trouble sometimes.


@ Diana – Yeah, it can be hard to accept help sometimes. I often feel guilty, like I should be able to do this all by myself. Pride gets in the way a lot of the time. But then (sometimes) I realize that there are people who actually like to help other people and that there are probably some around who wouldn't mind helping me specifically. Plus, I'd probably end up with a better whatever it is I'm trying to accomplish if I got some additional input.

I think it makes it easier to ask for and accept assistance because my dad is very much in favor of getting advice or counsel, as he calls it. I've had the experience of watching a man I admire graciously seek and receive help from other people, which makes it easier for me to do the same.

[Smilingeyes]

Hmm, that's funny. In the first quote, it sounds like the ESTj has all the power. In the second, the INFj has more influence.

Teehee. That too is funny, since I thought it was exactly the other way around when I wrote them But anyway, the real power in the relationship can belong to either one. The one who seems to use more force is not necessarily the one who directs the use of that force. And relationships have layers, good ones have many.

The INFj and the ESTj are the two types most in an aggressive pursuit of separation from the society.

That's interesting, too. I'm conservative and a traditionalist in many ways, but I definitely don't lockstep with the rest of the world. That gets me into trouble sometimes.

Well, sure, there's INFjs like you, then there's INFjs who are afraid that they've gone too far in the 'separation' and feel they're all alone. Deltas can either tolerate society or step away from it, but the important bit is that deltas rarely fight against it, or build it. Even tolerating and ritually conservative delta behaviour has a tendency to actually suck the lifeforce of society and rot it's core, so even that is a rebellion of sorts. We keep up traditions but aren't very good at creating new ones. One of the differences between the rational deltas and the irrational ones is that our separation from the society is more forceful when we do it, the irrationals do it in a more relaxed and natural manner. Not really that big a deal.