Duality When Unhealthy

[scio]

The more I read up on duality the less I believe in it because of how "unnatural" it appears to a lot of types.

My question simply is....
When one or both types are unhealthy, can duality become as bad as a conflictor relationship?
It is hard to tell your dual partner if you are unhealthy?
How can you tell the difference immediately between dual/conflictor? I've also seen people confused on that and I feel like if it really were valid, wouldn't it be extremely easy to tell the difference?

[Olimpia]

When you are unhealthy, Duality is probably the best kind of relation to have – technically.

However, as you have alluded to, in reality many people are "hypersensitive" and extremely neurotic when they are unhealthy, so someone who is strong in their weak spots could generally feel like a threat to them, even when it is a Dual. This effect is especially strong if the person has had no to little Duality experience.

I've come across people like that before, and I used to be one of them: someone who strongly needs help from a Dual, but would not be receptive to it.

And that may be strange, considering that one's Dual is supposed to be "perfect", no?

Well, it is not that simple. Duality can often be a bumpy road in the beginning, for both people are so different in certain ways, but they share a synergistic common ground – this fact comes to the surface after extended exposure. A very neurotic and hurt person is unlikely going to reach that stage with their Dual though, they'll withdraw at the faintest idea of possible trouble or difference. Perhaps a healthy Identical would be a better alternative in those particular cases, for they won't appear to be "threatening" or unsettling in any way, and it is said that Identicals can be the best teachers.

Personally, most of my life I used to find my Dual sort of normal, not particularly interesting, too different (lifestyle-wise), etc.
Other types were more interesting in comparison. Regarding my Conflictor, I almost always feel immediately somewhat on the edge with them, or do not want to get to know them.
I suppose growing up with a Conflictor father has given me the ability to spot my Conflictor very quickly, and I usually feel turned off by them. I experience a similar thing with my Supervisor. It's the Fe Role/Te lead combination I've learnt to spot quickly.

To differentiate between a Conflictor or a Dual, you have to get to know them, that's really the only way. They can appear to be very similar from afar. On a closer interaction basis, if you are good at typing you'll figure it out within 10-30 minutes whether they are your Conflictor or not.

To answer the first question directly: No, Duality cannot actually become as bad as a Conflictor relationship, though if you are both very unhealthy and at least one person is being abusive in any shape or form, it could be close to a Conflictor relationship. The focus lies on abusive here, however. I'd assume that over time, if you both love each other and do not abuse each other, you'd be able to become healthier together in a Dual relationship over time. Though there are always outside factors that could make the individuals unhealthy, so it is difficult to say how a particular relationship turns out without knowing significant details.

[scio]

@Cassandra Very interesting. What is the difference between abusive relationships and your conflictor then? I wonder if it's possible to just be mistyping our conflictors with just unhealthy people

[Olimpia]

@Cassandra Very interesting. What is the difference between abusive relationships and your conflictor then? I wonder if it's possible to just be mistyping our conflictors with just unhealthy people

Well, one could say all Conflictor relations are to some degree "abusive" on a closer level (mostly emotionally), but not all abusive relationships are Conflict relations in Socionics.

Or in other words, you can suffer abuse from any type. When someone is abusive, it doesn't matter what type they are, it will be harmful anyway.

[scio]

@Cassandra Well, yeah, totally. I'm just wondering if you're in it how would you be able to tell the difference?

[Delilah]

I thought the whole point of duality as a concept is it postulates that it is always healthy so what are you meaning ???

[scio]

@Delilah Unhealthy meaning in a bad mental state temporarily. Like if some tragic incident happens that changes you, etc.

[GuavaDrunk]

'Conflictor bad' just means that when you try to do your best for the other person they take it badly, because you are such different people that you cannot coexist peacefully without at least one of you getting a personality transplant. It's just unfortunate incompatibility, no need to dramatise it into abuse.

It can certainly extend into abuse, but so can any other intertype relation because the existence of abusive dynamics depends on NTR factors.

[akash]

Your dual is the quasi-identical of your conflictor, so they may look the same until things click.

[Pookie]

I thought the whole point of duality as a concept is it postulates that it is always healthy so what are you meaning ???

Where in the world did you get that?

[Beautiful sky]

Duality is aggravated by assholes. You can love a dual for his or her functions but assholes are all the same they smell and act like assholes hahah

[Saoirse]

However, as you have alluded to, in reality many people are "hypersensitive" and extremely neurotic when they are unhealthy, so someone who is strong in their weak spots could generally feel like a threat to them, even when it is a Dual. This effect is especially strong if the person has had no to little Duality experience.

I've come across people like that before, and I used to be one of them: someone who strongly needs help from a Dual, but would not be receptive to it.

Relatedly, an LSE (whom I even recently called a close friend) has aggravated me to no end by assuming he is always right and I am always wrong, including on Fi matters. Even when I am basically telling him I agree with him on something, he finds a way to misinterpret my words such that I am wrong, because he appears to have some kind of innate belief that no one other than he can be right about anything. It's annoying in neutral situations like arguments where we were just using different definitions of a word, but it pisses me off to no end when he thinks he understands people's true motivations and feelings toward others better than I do. It also inspires pity because he can't even begin to fathom the difference between his 1D Fi and someone else's 4D Fi, but he's so childishly proud of what he thinks is his good Fi.

So yeah, I think immature individuals of all types are frustrating--doesn't matter if they're your dual or not. They are just frustrating in different ways.

I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between conflictor/dual, regardless of health levels. I basically have nothing to talk about with an SLE; I've never gotten to a close enough psychological distance with an SLE where we care enough about each other to argue (can't imagine how stressful it would be to be forced to be close with a conflictor, e.g., a parent or something). I can talk with immature LSEs for hours still, but there is a lot of arguing or unheeded advice.

[Beautiful sky]

Relatedly, an LSE (whom I even recently called a close friend) has aggravated me to no end by assuming he is always right and I am always wrong, including on Fi matters. Even when I am basically telling him I agree with him on something, he finds a way to misinterpret my words such that I am wrong, because he appears to have some kind of innate belief that no one other than he can be right about anything. It's annoying in neutral situations like arguments where we were just using different definitions of a word, but it pisses me off to no end when he thinks he understands people's true motivations and feelings toward others better than I do. It also inspires pity because he can't even begin to fathom the difference between his 1D Fi and someone else's 4D Fi, but he's so childishly proud of what he thinks is his good Fi.

So yeah, I think immature individuals of all types are frustrating--doesn't matter if they're your dual or not. They are just frustrating in different ways.

I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between conflictor/dual, regardless of health levels. I basically have nothing to talk about with an SLE; I've never gotten to a close enough psychological distance with an SLE where we care enough about each other to argue (can't imagine how stressful it would be to be forced to be close with a conflictor, e.g., a parent or something). I can talk with immature LSEs for hours still, but there is a lot of arguing or unheeded advice.

oh um you're not communicating the agreement the right way; and, you should probably look into another inter type relations. I think that unless an EII is going against the self image of the LSE (like calling them LSE when they think of themselves another type) EII has the key, the way of finding the right language and approach to others.

Also, I'm saying this because EII are harmonizers in relationships and don't like arguments typically.

[Saoirse]

oh um you're not communicating the agreement the right way

What happens is that we argue for a while until we realize we had been defining things differently. Then I am content to let it go because we were both right, but my LSE friend keeps acting all high and mighty like he was the only one who was right.

Hey, I love LSEs as much as you do (i.e., way more than the average EII even), but sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. There's no way to get along well with someone who is that infuriatingly egotistical, unless you put up with a lot of shit from them. You can't possibly think that every LSE is mature enough that he would listen to his dual if only his dual communicates "the right way."

[Beautiful sky]

What happens is that we argue for a while until we realize we had been defining things differently. Then I am content to let it go because we were both right, but my LSE friend keeps acting all high and mighty like he was the only one who was right.

Hey, I love LSEs as much as you do (i.e., way more than the average EII even), but sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. There's no way to get along well with someone who is that infuriatingly egotistical, unless you put up with a lot of shit from them. You can't possibly think that every LSE is mature enough that he would listen to his dual if only his dual communicates "the right way."

LSE are authoritarian. They are the authority.

Anyway here's how you agree with an LSE

Keep quiet and look at them when they speak and say "right!" "of course" "a hum"

EII know how to keep silent but do what they wanted anyway lol

[Saoirse]

LSE are authoritarian. They are the authority

Yet like all humans, LSEs can be wrong, and they vary greatly in their ability to admit when they are wrong. Some LSEs are way better at taking in new information and adjusting their beliefs, while others double down on authoritatively asserting their incorrect beliefs. It's like what you said before:

Duality is aggravated by assholes. You can love a dual for his or her functions but assholes are all the same they smell and act like assholes hahah

[Beautiful sky]

Yet like all humans, LSEs can be wrong, and they vary greatly in their ability to admit when they are wrong. Some LSEs are way better at taking in new information and adjusting their beliefs, while others double down on authoritatively asserting their incorrect beliefs. It's like what you said before:

I edited my post for instructions on how to agree with an LSE and not get into a fight. Remember LsE wants to be the daddy, he wants to teach you the ways, so when he speaks he wants you to listen, learn lol repeat and be the good student. I like being the instructor too lol

[Rebelondeck]

Any person that carries tremendous amounts of baggage will have difficulty in relationships especially if under a lot of stress, which is usually the case. It's nearly impossible to determine type when a person is fighting a personal battle because that person can go into alternate states of mind. Relationships of any ilk take adaptability and compromise which is nearly impossible if a person's hands are full already; and whether or not one has found a dual is inconsequential. And, anyone who thinks they can be a baggage handler for someone else should think again. The best way to determine if another has too much baggage is to listen carefully and take notes; it's worth the effort. Unfortunately, as libido intensifies blood rushes from the brain.......


a.k.a. I/O

[scio]

LSE are authoritarian. They are the authority.

Anyway here's how you agree with an LSE

Keep quiet and look at them when they speak and say "right!" "of course" "a hum"

EII know how to keep silent but do what they wanted anyway lol

??????:000000 doesnt that sound like torture lol
idgi how is he supposed to learn from that, you're just feeding into his ego

[scio]

@GuavaDrunk I know there's no need, I find it interesting to think about though!

[scio]

@Rebelondeck That is very true. It completely nontype related at that point for sure

[Beautiful sky]

??????:000000 doesnt that sound like torture lol
idgi how is he supposed to learn from that, you're just feeding into his ego

You'll come back to it and mention it to him when he's not rattled up on his own concept and rationalization. Then, he will be more receptive of your opinion but not when he's trying to be right

[Olimpia]

Relatedly, an LSE (whom I even recently called a close friend) has aggravated me to no end by assuming he is always right and I am always wrong, including on Fi matters. Even when I am basically telling him I agree with him on something, he finds a way to misinterpret my words such that I am wrong, because he appears to have some kind of innate belief that no one other than he can be right about anything. It's annoying in neutral situations like arguments where we were just using different definitions of a word, but it pisses me off to no end when he thinks he understands people's true motivations and feelings toward others better than I do. It also inspires pity because he can't even begin to fathom the difference between his 1D Fi and someone else's 4D Fi, but he's so childishly proud of what he thinks is his good Fi.

So yeah, I think immature individuals of all types are frustrating--doesn't matter if they're your dual or not. They are just frustrating in different ways.

I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between conflictor/dual, regardless of health levels. I basically have nothing to talk about with an SLE; I've never gotten to a close enough psychological distance with an SLE where we care enough about each other to argue (can't imagine how stressful it would be to be forced to be close with a conflictor, e.g., a parent or something). I can talk with immature LSEs for hours still, but there is a lot of arguing or unheeded advice.

What you are describing there reminds me a lot of an LIE-Ni I knew, who was also very certain their Fi was good and so forth...

It's possible that that friend of yours is actually your Semi-Dual, an LIE. Probably Te subtype – those LIEs can easily be mistaken for an LSE.

And yes, it is the most unfortunate situation to be "forced" having to closely interact with a Conflictor parent/family member, etc.
It can be quite stressful. At the same time, I've thought about how I've managed to live with my Conflictor dad (with remarkable difficulties, ofc) – and that by that standard, I could probably live with any personality type. Meaning, if you can manage living with your Conflictor, you probably can do so with any other type, for they will all be much easier to deal with.

And that's just my perspective on the Conflictor issue, but it feels like a preparation for the harshness of the world. "Whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" kind of thing.
They'll confront you with your weaknesses and show you how weak you can be, and all that.

[Saoirse]

oh um you're not communicating the agreement the right way; and, you should probably look into another inter type relations. I think that unless an EII is going against the self image of the LSE (like calling them LSE when they think of themselves another type) EII has the key, the way of finding the right language and approach to others.

Also, I'm saying this because EII are harmonizers in relationships and don't like arguments typically.

You're right, I absolutely abhor arguments. That's why I hate that he always picks fights with me. We only argue for hours because we are duals, I think. I don't argue with anyone except at a very close psychological distance, which could only be achieved by this guy through his Te/LSEness (and his love of some of my EII traits, such as my moral certainty, reliability, non-judgmental nature, openness to new ideas, and understanding of him--in retrospect, it's odd he said I understand him so well, considering he doesn't seem to think I understand anything else well--but I suppose that's the only area where he can first-hand experience my Fi and confirm for himself that it's correct).

I rather did have the key to him, in the sense that I used to do exactly what you said in terms of handling his penchant for picking fights. But as @sockpuppet pointed out, it was torture, and he never was more receptive even after he had some time to calm down. Even if you have the key to everyone, you don't necessarily enjoy using it, and I don't think there is a duty to keep using it on people who don't even appreciate it.

It's interesting that the tendency has been to suggest that my experience with him is not duality. I understand the inclination to doubt others' typings (I personally doubt others' typings a lot, lol), but I'm confident that I am EII and he is LSE--he has lead Te and creative Si out the wazoo.

Sorry to have hijacked the thread a bit, but at least this is a pretty detailed example of what the OP was asking about! Ultimately I agree with @GuavaDrunk and @Rebelondeck. Maturity/mental health is very important.

Edit to clarify what I think we mean when we say "key": having the key to harmonize relations in the moment is not the same as having the key to change someone for the better. We can advise our LSEs/friends in general as best we can, but it is up to them to listen to the advice. EIIs are especially bad at coercing others into doing what they say, after all.

[Suzaku]

I think it boils down to how your dual manages stress and their upbringing, values, goals, etc. My dual is going through a divorce and has a kid. He's enneagram 3. At first I thought he was becoming an alcoholic but I realized I was having a positive influence on him and he really hasn't been drinking at all now. He's turned in to this pillar of strength and honestly I'm kind of afraid of him, in a good way lol. He handles stress way better than me. If I am anxious, he is not, he will give me space and then when I've calmed down help me. So we are friends and it flows naturally. He doesn't care I'm on the spectrum. He appreciates me. Though I'm afraid of him hahahaha. In a good way. He's like a kind bulldozer.

[Cosmic Teapot]

I think it boils down to how your dual manages stress and their upbringing, values, goals, etc. My dual is going through a divorce and has a kid. He's enneagram 3. At first I thought he was becoming an alcoholic but I realized I was having a positive influence on him and he really hasn't been drinking at all now. He's turned in to this pillar of strength and honestly I'm kind of afraid of him, in a good way lol. He handles stress way better than me. If I am anxious, he is not, he will give me space and then when I've calmed down help me. So we are friends and it flows naturally. He doesn't care I'm on the spectrum. He appreciates me. Though I'm afraid of him hahahaha. In a good way. He's like a kind bulldozer.

You help each other. That's so nice to read

[Suzaku]

You help each other. That's so nice to read

Yeah I've found it is an equal give and take and we don't make things worse, we help. Anything unhealthy tends to slide away after a while.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

The way I understand duality is like this innate understanding of shared values... which has the potential to be greatly compatible and an energetic, positive relationship. But it's just that... a potentiality. You can still be emotionally fond of somebody who causes mental misunderstandings, and you can still despise somebody that 'gets you' on a primitive compatible level. Socionics at its core is just about how information is absorbed. There are SLEs I've been very turned on by sure, but I made the wise decision that involving myself with them wasn't worth the emotional pain and heartache. (Pain's more trouble than love is worth like Demi Lovato says hehe) Reality is complicated with many different parts and it of course doesn't mean that dual will magically work out. If you were to ask me that generally speaking, am I personally fond of hunky chad SLEs more than boring jesus freak business logic LSEs.... of course I say yes. But I know everything isn't about me and I can see the value in those types of people as well... and even grow to like some of those types.

You'll usually want to instinctively fuck your duals, that's why people make a big deal out of it. Heterosexual sex is the reason we all exist. Heil the alpha str8 man lol.

God, most people are idiots when they are into somebody and its really pathetic for humanity to observe. Though I get crushes too easily at times I pride myself in never stalking somebody and I try to have another sassy independent gay man slap the stupid out of me. Love is dumb. too much like war, just on the different side. If somebody nabs my heart, I have the wisdom to know that it's just that, my heart... really a small part about somebody and the bigger question is, do they have my respect, my intelligence, my brain, my body- my same lifestyle values, humor/values about money/travel/interests etc. How useful are they? If the answer to most of these things is NO then its time to move on. They aren't worth it. /baggage reclaim girl lol.

[Alomoes]

I agree with the identicals part, although if the person tries to compare themselves to the identical, then they might build a wall between said identical by focusing on that he's different.

[scio]

@Bullets that was extremely helpful. I'm sick of the fetish on duality because it completely diminishes the importance of other relationships (that is, if you take socionics seriously with intertype relations)

I don't want to dislike types because I know socionics, and I believe that is becoming a problem in everyday life

[scio]

@Starfall so sad and eerie to watch. thank you for sharing

[Alomoes]

@Bullets that was extremely helpful. I'm sick of the fetish on duality because it completely diminishes the importance of other relationships (that is, if you take socionics seriously with intertype relations)

I don't want to dislike types because I know socionics, and I believe that is becoming a problem in everyday life

Hence why I stopped typing people.

[applejacks]

I'm assuming here that an unhealthy person would either be emotionally in turmoil and / or not communicating well. I'm unsure of how else to define "unhealthy." It may be difficult to start relationships of any kind in this circumstance.

However, if you are with a dual that is genuinely interested in you, they'll notice. Whether or not they say they notice may depend on type. But from personal experience (Ne here), my dual knew when I was unwell emotionally. He didn't always speak about it or want to talk about it, but he knew and it upset him.

As for conflict vs dual... I've found that humor and clothing styles are a good way to narrow things down, but it takes time. And by the way, it's possible to really enjoy conflictors. "Liking vs not liking" isn't a valid way to narrow down. I think much of it boils down to how information is processed, communicated, and decoded. I get along extremely well with my conflictor sister in law. On the surface she seems very similar to my SLI hubby, but I think with enough time together, and especially if we were constantly in intimate settings where hearts are deeply involved, we might find each other encoding and decoding our communications differently. She would also probably be annoyed at some of my IEE quirks and may not feel like I was bringing something of value to her in a relationship specifically, and vice versa. But I'm able to enjoy her for who she is because I'm not looking to her emotionally in that way. her humor is also the funniest in the whole family, I think!

[lavos]

I "fixed" an ESI girl that was in an unhealthy state (or at least set her on the right path). But then again, I did it to a SEI girl too, so I guess maybe it isn't duality-related, but me. But nobody has fixed me yet

[Exodus]

Didn't read the thread, so forgive me if this has already been said.

The more I read up on duality the less I believe in it because of how "unnatural" it appears to a lot of types.

My question simply is....
When one or both types are unhealthy, can duality become as bad as a conflictor relationship?
It is hard to tell your dual partner if you are unhealthy?
How can you tell the difference immediately between dual/conflictor? I've also seen people confused on that and I feel like if it really were valid, wouldn't it be extremely easy to tell the difference?

If someone truly is unhealthy, as in they have psychological issues, a compatible type will more easily brush off the "unhealthy" behavior because they see it as cute or endearing or not even a problem. They MAY do this - it's not guaranteed. With a conflicting type it will make all the inherent value conflicts even worse. But if someone does have issues it's going to negatively impact all their relationships to some extent.

[Bertrand]

I see as unhealth as offloading suggestive and mobilizing to the environment in an irresponsible way. like punishing those around you with some kind of weird unconscious plea. ILEs living in filth, SEEs being criminally reckless etc. the solution often time is your dual because they naturally want to take that on. If we're talking schizophrenia or bipolar or something like that, then duality is not going to fix that, but general unhealth, without a underlying real biological issue, can definitely be soothed by duality. unhealth is a lot of time a passive response to not getting any support on certain channels and upping the pressure on others to provide for it, what happens is in a conflicting environment it just escalates without end. duality should break the cycle. if you're around "duals" and its going poorly, it might suggest one of you is mistyped

sometimes people just don't know how to relax and be themselves because they're so wound up by relationships that imposed unnatural standards on them, but your dual from a distance sort of unconsciously "knows" and it probably evokes sympathy more than anything

minimizing being outnumbered in a conflicting quadral environment is also probably good. like a career populated and run by mostly your opposing quadra is going to be tough unless you have a very good support structure in place. its not saying give up or like there's no free will or you can't succeed, its just you gotta pick your battles and be smart about it. its not really saying anything more than don't surround yourself with people you don't get along with. if you do get along, then great, who cares what their label is

whenever this topic comes up advice of this kind is always criticized as cult sounding but take it for what its worth

[idontgiveaf]

Any types, when they're unhealthy are annoying

[Sol]

When one or both types are unhealthy, can duality become as bad as a conflictor relationship?

There are no "healthy/unhealthy types", as they are disorder. But there are non-types factors which may make problems.
Duality is always best for romance, in case of same other conditions.

> How can you tell the difference immediately between dual/conflictor?

J/P, ego functions, IR impressions
but there is some chance of mistake. it's good to communicate for several monthes, at least, to check the type

> I've also seen people confused on that and I feel like if it really were valid, wouldn't it be extremely easy to tell the difference?

You need information and skills. Typing sometimes is easy, sometimes not, sometimes you mistake.
Recently I typed super-ego girl as my dual and understood the mistake only after 3 monthes when she've adopted to forum and started behave more naturally for her type. Even having experience keeps chances for mistakes (up to ~10% for my methods, it's significant). I liked that cute girl personally, she talked polite at start, behaved and said some things which related to EII more than other types. The example, why you need more time for communication - it's hard to understand someone as bad IR if your liked him/her as person initially, there is some psychic border. Similarly you may type your conflictor as your dual/activator.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

"Unhealthy" in terms of psychology needs to be better defined as during my life some people thought I was a perfectly acceptable member of society whereas other people thought I deserved to be locked up forever while being tortured by ms ratchet types. Just some sorta bs subjective Fi reading on another person or something with not enough basis in logic or fact, so if this could be further defined it would help kthxbye.

Like obviously it's 'unhealthy' if you cut up people like a serial killer but I mean shades of gray are needed too.

[Aramas]

"Unhealthy" in terms of psychology needs to be better defined as during my life some people thought I was a perfectly acceptable member of society whereas other people thought I deserved to be locked up forever while being tortured by ms ratchet types. Just some sorta bs subjective Fi reading on another person or something with not enough basis in logic or fact, so if this could be further defined it would help kthxbye.

Like obviously it's 'unhealthy' if you cut up people like a serial killer but I mean shades of gray are needed too.

There's no such thing as healthy or unhealthy in this context. It's always defined by powerful people to be whatever they want it to be. The only possibility I can think of would be whether or not a person engages in self-defeating behaviors. And I mean "self-defeating" very literally, as if there were a true self that defines who a person really is inside. I think I have to define it that way, because what people often mean by "self-defeating" is "acts that get social disapproval." If we define self-defeating as acts or thoughts that are injurious to a person's essential self or internal integrity, without regard for the social acceptability of such, then we can maybe have a good definition for what healthy and unhealthy are that isn't subject to changing norms or personal opinions.

In this scenario, the problem then becomes, "How do you know who someone really is?" I think Socionics is one of the better answers we have to that question.