How normal is to think about rape?

[mikemex]

There was an interesting discussion going on in the chat box about whether it is normal or not for people to think about certain things. Rape was the topic but I think this can be safely extended to other non-politically-correct issues. My take is that we all are capable of thinking that way but that such ideas are so embarrassing for people to admit in public that they deny any knowledge of them to save their faces. @point and @Kim claim that it's not normal for people to think that way and that anyone who does requires medical treatment. I was challenged to present evidence other than my opinion to back up my claims.

I'll begin with this:

Many people experience the type of bad or unwanted thoughts that people with more troubling intrusive thoughts have, but most people can dismiss these thoughts. For most people, intrusive thoughts are a "fleeting annoyance."Psychologist Stanley Rachman presented a questionnaire to healthy college students and found that virtually all said they had these thoughts from time to time, including thoughts of sexual violence, sexual punishment, "unnatural" sex acts, painful sexual practices, blasphemous or obscene images, thoughts of harming elderly people or someone close to them, violence against animals or towards children, and impulsive or abusive outbursts or utterances. Such bad thoughts are universal among humans, and have "almost certainly always been a part of the human condition".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrusive_thoughts

[Contra]

I feel like the "intrusive thoughts" quote pretty much answers your question. I don't know if there are any statistical studies on the proportion of people who have intrusive thoughts, but I imagine that its large enough such that to suggest those who have those thoughts need medical treatment would be absurd. Of course, it does matter what those intrusive thoughts include, such as intent for rape or murder or whatever, but I think the entire idea of intrusive thoughts is characterized as benign, necessarily excluding intent. Also, I don't believe the commonality of intrusive thoughts is the only reason medical treatment is not necessary. As I said, the entire idea of intrusive thoughts is that they are compulsive and benign. Even if only one person on earth were to have these thoughts, there is just no reason to have him treated. He poses no threat.

However, if there were studies to suggest that such thoughts did lead to violent intentions then maybe medical treatment would be necessary, but those thoughts seeming strange and dangerous to individual people has no real bearing on whether the afflicted need medical attention. I'm sure that's obvious, but I can easily see how someone who didn't have intrusive thoughts would be scared of those who do.

[Kim]

I feel like the "intrusive thoughts" quote pretty much answers your question. I don't know if there are any statistical studies on the proportion of people who have intrusive thoughts, but I imagine that its large enough such that to suggest those who have those thoughts need medical treatment would be absurd. Of course, it does matter what those intrusive thoughts include, such as intent for rape or murder or whatever, but I think the entire idea of intrusive thoughts is characterized as benign, necessarily excluding intent. Also, I don't believe the commonality of intrusive thoughts is the only reason medical treatment is not necessary. As I said, the entire idea of intrusive thoughts is that they are compulsive and benign. Even if only one person on earth were to have these thoughts, there is just no reason to have him treated. He poses no threat.

However, if there were studies to suggest that such thoughts did lead to violent intentions then maybe medical treatment would be necessary, but those thoughts seeming strange and dangerous to individual people has no real bearing on whether the afflicted need medical attention. I'm sure that's obvious, but I can easily see how someone who didn't have intrusive thoughts would be scared of those who do.

Our discussion was specifically about rape, so there would definitely be threat. It began because Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape (since, as he claims, many men think of rape when being aroused by seeing a stranger in a mini skirt).

[Aylen]

Our discussion was specifically about rape, so there would definitely be threat. It began because Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape (since, as he claims, many men think of rape when being aroused by seeing a stranger in a mini skirt).

Men who obsessively think of rape usually don't care what you are wearing. I can see an intrusive thought occurring now and then but if it happens frequently and there are certain triggers then talking to therapist might be a good idea. I have worn lots of miniskirts around lots of men and even if they were thinking of rape I didn't see it and they didn't let on. I think a lot of men I know personally would be annoyed if someone said they could not control themselves around a woman in a miniskirt.

In contrast, in my past, wearing over-sized sweats or a long skirt did not prevent a guy from trying to intimidate me. I stabbed a guy in the hand once, with a fork, because I could not get him off me. I scared him so bad and he apologized profusely after. I think I may have cured any thoughts he had of pushing himself on a woman again. I was only like 14 and he was 18 at the time.

[willekeurig]

Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape

[mikemex]

Our discussion was specifically about rape, so there would definitely be threat. It began because Mikemex is of the opinion that women should not wear miniskirts because that invites rape (since, as he claims, many men think of rape when being aroused by seeing a stranger in a mini skirt).

You're misquoting me Kim, both in the sense that you're altering what I said and that you're quoting me without giving my words a proper context. I didn't say I think women should not wear mini-skirts because that invites rape.

What I said, for those unfamiliar with the discussion that took place in the chat, was in response to Kim's claim that women should wear and do anything they want. And I responded to that that living in a group invariably implies surrendering a bit of your personal freedom for the sake of building a society. People who think that way are extreme individualists who are to be considered dysfunctional if we analyze it from a social dynamics perspective. So here is my first claim you can quote if you wish: in a society, extreme individualism is dysfunctional. And extreme individualism is manifested by the claim that one can do anything one wishes with disregard to what others around think or want.

Further development of this discussion led me to quote @InvisibleJim:

Nope, good leaders make pragmatic and functional compromise that get shit done.

Basically, my second argument was that feminists poses a deep ignorance of History. There have always been restrictive codes of conduct in any society, codes of dressing in particular. But rather than invoking authoritarianism, such measures are pragmatic in nature. There is an undeniable relationship between how you dress and how often you invite others to think about sex with you. And this is where the topic of mini-skirts and high heels took place: that if you dress provocatively you're increasing your chances of sexual thought getting directed at you, and that includes rape thoughts. I said that many men think of rape when they see a mini-skirt and I stand firm on my ground. Basically, getting aroused this way is non-romantic lust that is one sided (non consensual since there is no regard to what the other person thinks or wants). This is, by definition, rape mentality even at the most "innocent" level. And full color and detailed fantasies of rape aren't that rare as @Kim and @point claim, I tried to prove it with the intrusive thoughts quote/reference. I did read a much longer and detailed study years ago but I can't seem to find it.

Obviously, there is a distinction between merely thinking of rape and actually engaging on it. And here was my last argument on the discussion: despite people's attempts to save their faces, we all are, without exceptions, capable of evil. A thesis of Freud is that societies are built upon the repression of instincts, it's mostly the external circumstances around against our inner strength to resist our urges what determines what we do. Society is pragmatic because it simply tries to minimize situations where people have to actively repress their urges. That's why we aren't allowed to walk around naked, which the mini-skirt example just would be a minor variant of.

[Kim]

And this is where the topic of mini-skirts and high heels took place: that if you dress provocatively you're increasing your chances of sexual thought getting directed at you, and that includes rape thoughts. I said that many men think of rape when they see a mini-skirt and I stand firm on my ground. Basically, getting aroused this way is non-romantic lust that is one sided (non consensual since there is no regard to what the other person thinks or wants). This is, by definition, rape mentality even at the most "innocent" level. And full color and detailed fantasies of rape aren't that rare as @Kim and @point claim, I tried to prove it with the intrusive thoughts quote/reference. I did read a much longer and detailed study years ago but I can't seem to find it.

Obviously, there is a distinction between merely thinking of rape and actually engaging on it. And here was my last argument on the discussion: despite people's attempts to save their faces, we all are, without exceptions, capable of evil. A thesis of Freud is that societies are built upon the repression of instincts, it's mostly the external circumstances around against our inner strength to resist our urges what determines what we do. Society is pragmatic because it simply tries to minimize situations where people have to actively repress their urges. That's why we aren't allowed to walk around naked, which the mini-skirt example just would be a minor variant of.

Yes, and the bolded part is what I disagree with, like I said above. Mini skirts are perfectly normal in many parts of the world and in the context from which I am speaking. I am not saying you should wear a mini skirt in Saudi Arabia. Of course there is variation with regards to cultural (and religious) context. I am speaking from the perspective of a woman living in North America where wearing a mini skirt is considered normal. Once upon a time in North America showing an ankle was considered revealing and potentially arousing to men. Should we go back to that?

I maintain that if a man wants to rape a woman in a mini skirt because she gets him aroused, he needs to get this issue addressed because I maintain that is not normal.

The intrusive thought reference also does not prove your claim that many men have rape fantasies when seeing a woman in *provocative clothes.* It only show that some people have intrusive thoughts, which was never the issue of this debate.

[Kim]

My take is that we all are capable of thinking that way but that such ideas are so embarrassing for people to admit in public that they deny any knowledge of them to save their faces. @point and @Kim claim that it's not normal for people to think that way and that anyone who does requires medical treatment. I was challenged to present evidence other than my opinion to back up my claims.

No, that is not what I claimed. You claimed that many men who see a women in a mini skirt think of rape and I said that a) I do not believe that this is as normal as you make it out to be and b) that a man who thinks of rape when seeing a woman in a mini skirt needs treatment. So let us stick with the specific issue.

Furthermore, of course some people have intrusive thoughts. The article you posted also has a lengthy section on treatment. From reading this, it appears as if experts consider intrusive thoughts something that should be addressed. I was rather looking for statistics about how many men actually do think of rape when getting aroused from seeing a woman in a mini skirt. Getting aroused and thinking of sex does not equal getting aroused and thinking of rape.

[FDG]

No, that is not what I claimed. You claimed that many men who see a women in a mini skirt think of rape and I said that a) I do not believe that this is as normal as you make it out to be and b) that a man who thinks of rape when seeing a woman in a mini skirt needs treatment. So let us stick with the specific issue.

I think many men will think about sex when they see an (attractive) woman in a mini skirt.

[Kim]

I think many men will think about sex when they see an (attractive) woman in a mini skirt.

Yes, that I can see. But that is far from thinking about rape.

[Olly From Wally World]

Lmao, so looking at a hot chick in a mini skirt and thinking that you want to rape her instead of have sex with her? o.O I doubt that's normal. Maybe the person can be into dominating or whatever but still...

[Persephone]

When I see a woman in a mini skirt I think of a rape too... Please heal me.

[InvisibleJim]

According to this forum >99.9% of thoughts are rape or rape related.

In real life <0.1% of thoughts are rape or rape related.

[golden]

According to this forum >99.9% of thoughts are rape or rape related.

In real life <0.1% of thoughts are rape or rape related.

I agree with your overall point but will just say that personally, it enters my thoughts much more often than this. Some of the factors affecting frequency: City dwelling; sidewalk travel, sometimes unavoidably at night; past experience; looking out for the well-being of ppl around me; subway cars that might be empty or occupied by bad characters.

Also some of the choices I make about where, how, when to walk, dress, interact, and even work are indirectly affected about concerns for my safety and the worry I might cause my loved ones by not looking after myself.

(And I don't even consider myself the most vigilant person I know in these everyday situations.)

Robbery of course is also a thought in all this, it's not just rape. And since rape is more likely carried out by someone the victim knows, the reality of statistics reassures me somewhat.

[strangeling]

I think about rape sometimes. Sometimes I imagine raping someone or them raping me. I don't know why because I wouldn't actually enjoy raping or getting raped. I think it's probably the fantasy of fulfilling a sexual desire, without having to care about anything else. People that actually act out these thoughts probably don't care if they hurt someone, I can only imagine.

[Persephone]

By the way where is @transkar?

[InvisibleJim]

By the way where is @transkar?

Hopefully he is renouncing his raping ways in the public square and he signed a written contract before any penis entered any vagina last night.

[Persephone]

Hopefully he is renouncing his raping ways in the public square and he signed a written contract before any penis entered any vagina last night.

oooooooooooooohhhhhh ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Persephone]

I am old and I am still fantasizing of men who would eventually rape me. Ohhhhhh

[Kim]

Can you please stop trolling? Thank you.

[FDG]

Can you please stop trolling? Thank you.

To be honest this thread is just asking for trolling.

[Kim]

To be honest this thread is just asking for trolling.

How so?

[blackburry]

Technically this is a thread about obtrusive thoughts. I'm reading the thread . Was the mini skirt argument in chatbox bc I'm not seeing it here...?

I have obtrusive thoughts. Doesn't mean I'll act on them. Does mean I'll bring a few of them up with a SO at some point to....discuss possibilities of certain ones.
And while stuck in traffic I'm always like ughhh c'mon bazooka... However I'd never do that nor do I want to actually harm anyone... It's more like an annoyed Allie McBeal fantasy of "get da fuk out of my way.."
(But really I'm no more important than anyone else stuck in traffic and we're all annoyed).

[Kim]

Technically this is a thread about obtrusive thoughts. I'm reading the thread . Was the mini skirt argument in chatbox bc I'm not seeing it here...?
.

Yes, it was.

[mu4]

I don't really give a crap what people think. They can have violent fantasies and whatever. I mean I don't really think thought crimes are what you want to punish in society.

As far as restrictive dress codes, those are usually the product of authoritarian regimes and not tolerant ones. If you can't differentiate violent fantasies from reality, you probably don't have a great place in modern society.

You can try and rationalize oppressive authoritarian dress codes but don't try to portray yourself as some sort of anti-authoritarian. You kinda of just want rationalize something modern society is loosening up on. As far as practical dress codes, they're a lot of reasons to have em, rape prevention is probably not high on my list.

[Birdie]

Mmmmmmm. I definitely have some thoughts and good points to share:

First and foremost I do not think Point should be a voice for how much time
thinking about rape is too much. As a man, automatically his worry of
rape is less than that of a woman because statistically it is much more unlikely
for him to get raped.

As a woman who has been threatened several times in public places I do not
think you can ever worry about rape too much unless it is interfering with your
ability to actually leave your home. Almost every time I am in a place by myself
and there are strange men about the thought crosses my mind. It happens less
often than when I am in very public places however that strain of thought and worry
is still there, especially when I am leaving and walking through a parking garage
alone. Just this morning I was standing outside of a building that was not yet open.
I was standing in a corner shielding myself from the wind and I could see a man
walking by, instinctively I shrunk back into the corner just in case.

Awhile ago I was sitting on a bench waiting for my bus and two men walking by
stopped, stood on either side of me and one man was stroking my face and hair
talking about how pretty I was. I did not know these men, there was no familiarity,
they were literally just walking by and decided I was a good target. Even better,
there was a man about half a block away waiting for his bus and he ignored the
situation entirely though I saw him looking. Thankfully my bus pulled up not long
after they surrounded me but had it not I really think they would have hurt me.

Do I know self-defense? Yes. Sometimes it is hard to react when your adrenaline
suddenly floods your system. I really do not think you can ever be too prepared
for things like this.

[Radio]

i don't have much to contribute to this thread but

Awhile ago I was sitting on a bench waiting for my bus and two men walking by
stopped, stood on either side of me and one man was stroking my face and hair
talking about how pretty I was. I did not know these men, there was no familiarity,
they were literally just walking by and decided I was a good target. Even better,
there was a man about half a block away waiting for his bus and he ignored the
situation entirely though I saw him looking. Thankfully my bus pulled up not long
after they surrounded me but had it not I really think they would have hurt me.

i am so sorry this happened to you. i think if something like this were to happen to me i would be too paralyzed to leave my house.
do you carry pepper spray or things of that nature?

[Birdie]

i don't have much to contribute to this thread but



i am so sorry this happened to you. i think if something like this were to happen to me i would be too paralyzed to leave my house.
do you carry pepper spray or things of that nature?

I do carry pepper spray. Honestly though I would like to get my
permit to carry a concealed weapon.

[Suz]

Mmmmmmm. I definitely have some thoughts and good points to share:

First and foremost I do not think Point should be a voice for how much time thinking about rape is too much. As a man, automatically his worry of rape is less than that of a woman because statistically it is much more unlikely
for him to get raped.

As a woman who has been threatened several times in public places I do not think you can ever worry about rape too much unless it is interfering with your ability to actually leave your home. Almost every time I am in a place by myself and there are strange men about the thought crosses my mind. It happens less often than when I am in very public places however that strain of thought and worry
is still there, especially when I am leaving and walking through a parking garage alone.

Bird, i resonate with you on this. The situation you described is truly frightening and i'm so glad you were able to get out of there safely, if shaken up a bit.

I personally also am scared of rape and keep that possibility in the back of my mind when going about my day and planning or choosing my activities/time. When I was younger, from time to time, I did occasionally find myself alone in sketchy settings where I felt uneasy, and my "unsafe" antenna going off like crazy (well admittedly even a couple times recently in the past 6 months, now that i think about it!); thankfully I never encountered anything quite like your situation, but over time, I've become more conscientious, even for minor things, e.g. I'll lock my office door from the inside once everyone leaves, if I'm staying late at work; I'll plan to take a well-frequented corridor to get to my car, etc. If i end up needing to walk a distance in a deserted place and i dont feel safe, I'll take out my cell phone, and either make a real call to a loved one or even just pretend to make a call and talk to someone (either way, remaining hypervigilant about surroundings). The latter, especially when your cell phone battery is drained. It's a little bit of a deterrent.

Be safe, girls!

[xerx]

if someone ever strokes me like that I would kick them in the balls.

[Reficulris]

seems like a lot of trolling in this thread.

About the original topic;

I think fantasies are common, not necessarily (or even often) dangerous even if acted upon within the boundaries of consent.

The matter if miniskirts provoke rape is a bit more nuanced. First of all, we are animals and have urges. How well we can manage those drives/urges determines wether you're a normal functional human being or a sex offender/wife molester/serial killer in jail.

Yes, sexual clothes, in general, will increase the chances of being raped, that in and of itself does not make it the responsibility of the woman to not dress like that. It's still the responsibility of the dude not to rape. In other words, you don't see many guys rubbing their dicks to sexual advertisement in public and say "it was asking for it"....

Everyone should be able to dress ass provokingly as they want to (within the limits of the law) and still be protected by society and said law so they can do so in safety.

The above is all in the context of the western legalistic nation state. I think in other contexts it becomes more a question of practicality than morality, in some contexts i'd carry a gun and shoot any guy that'd look my way if i were a woman...doesn't mean that's the way it should be.


As always, IS never implies OUGHT. Evolutionary or sex-drive based defences of rape are kinda moot, we've evolved past those instincts in the sense that we punish exesses of them. IF you can't manage those drives you'll be put away and that's evolutionary fine. (except when you still procreate, in that case you'll have dodged the evolutionary bullet).


EDIT:

The idiocy of "she was asking for it" (which the miniskirt debate kinda is, but disguised) is really apparent if you just realise that YES she might have wanted to look sexually, but NOT FOR THE RAPIST.... In other words, if I dress up to get hired someplace i don't want people to drag me inside another company and hire me because "I asked for it"

[Kim]

seems like a lot of trolling in this thread.

But Ref, the thread asked for it. The irony is almost funny.

[Reficulris]

But Ref, the thread asked for it. The irony is almost funny.

This thread wears miniskirts? ^^

[FDG]

But Ref, the thread asked for it. The irony is almost funny.

So trolling = rape?

[mu4]

So trolling = rape?

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...hs-and-sadists

Here a recent article.

Psychologically Trolls aren't that different than the most calculated of rapists.

[FDG]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...hs-and-sadists

Here a recent article.

Psychologically Trolls aren't that different than the most calculated of rapists.

Yeah, let's throw them in prison as a preventive measure then.

[Joy]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...hs-and-sadists

Here a recent article.

Having lived with one I will concur.

[InvisibleJim]

So trolling = rape?

You need to stop your trolling thoughts and questioning of the cozy consensus Fabio.

If you continue to think these devilish things and act out like this you will be demodded or even banned.

By the definition applied across this world class community it is known that upwards of 101% of thoughts are now rape, or rape related.

These heros and their viewpoints have nothing to do with their personal issues of a few individuals who they have managed to piss off.

[Reficulris]

You need to stop your trolling thoughts and questioning of the cozy consensus Fabio.

If you continue to think these devilish things and act out like this you will be demodded or even banned.

By the definition applied across this world class community it is known that upwards of 101% of thoughts are now rape, or rape related.

These heros and their viewpoints have nothing to do with their personal issues of a few individuals who they have managed to piss off.

Well, it's because we here are all thinking so much about rape that we make up for all the non-rape thinkers outside of the forum

in george orwell style: thinkrape!

[Kim]

So trolling = rape?

No, this was about victim blaming. The severity is different, but the mindset is the same.