ENTps and empathy

[Korpsy Knievel]

Every seen an SLI sit around and commend people to do things? That's how they work. They suggest to their Extraverted dual to do the things in the way that they come up with. The best example of this is a quote Minde posted in Socionics quote thread. It makes sense because in submersing themselves in the world of the impressions of Sensory information, SLI slow down and take time to inwards and don't or may not have the time or the drive to do external activities, which their dual, IEE, do because the extravert is used to the level of energy output.

I recall you said this:

[...]what SLI do...as in do they watch as people pour juice? I said yes because they are internalizing the sensation as another person does the work.

and also this:

SLIs have a fetish for watching people pour juice into a cup?

LOL; they are just abstracting sensations through observation. The one pouring the juice is probably the one doing the work, who is my dual.

[plotter]

[QUOTE=MisterNi;783243]
2: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this
QUOTE]

Finally an understandable definition. I always mix up empathy and sympathy and the likes.

Well anyway...

In myself. I don't lack empathy. If there is a problem in this area, it is that sometimes I dont know what to do with it. Since my own feelings doesn't correspond to what "I know" the other person is feeling, it makes thye situation awkward to me. I can't provide the emotional comfort or whatever the other person is in need of. I can only offer a solution or a new perpsective to look att the situation, which is not what the other person is in need of.
And, well if they do want a solution or a new perpective, they probably have to say so, or maybe I'll do it anyway, and they get pissed.
Like if someone is sad because someone they barely knew just died, and they sit sobbing across the table.
Okay maybe i don't understand Why they are sad, but I undertand that they in fact ARE sad... Maybe I COULD fake a bit of sadness, and say "I'm so sorry for your loss", but that would probably make me a bit disgusted about myself, and wouldn't sound genuine anyway, and the lack of feeling from my part would be met with some kind of hostility towards me. Well if they don't want a new perspective or something like "You'll get over it" or a joke to distract from the sadness there isn't much for me to do...
So in these cases I much rather distance myself from the situation.
I bet there are ILE's that doesn't feel the same way about expressing fake sadness, or actuallky have a good solution on how to act in similar situations. It's probably all about what ethics you subscribe to.

As for the question what if ****** was ILE, and how we can see ways that he is expressing emptahy...

Well you probably couldn't could you.
****** was 1) a politician, 2) a man with a plan, 3) skilled in the arts of deception

With this in mind, you can't really know what underlying idea/plan/feeling, that motivates a certain action/behavior/expression.
Of course you can speculate that cetain actions are motivated by empathy, but it would be rather pointless, since we have no real facts about the workings of ******s mind. What I'm saying is that it would be pointless even if we accept that ****** is ILE.

Over and out.

[NewBorn STAR]

Look at Aleksei

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Empathy, as great as it is, is actually very rare, most people easily become hostile and aggressive. Nothing really bands people together more than hating something.

You can test this out by exposing yourself more to the 'real world' and not idealizing it from online message boards. I don't say that out of a bitter disgust by the way, just a helpful suggestion. I certainly don't blame anybody who wants to spend all their socializing online...

You will literally feel how if your neck was snapped in half *right there* in front of everybody, they wouldn't feel sorry for you at all. Quite the opposite. They would actually cheer it on and be really amused by your death. It's a rare treat if you meet other people who would actually give a shit if you got hurt. (Instead of wanting it like they usually want to happen)

So I mean I suppose that's why life coaches and therapists and helper people always try to get you to take care of #1 and to try and help yourself and ignore everybody else, cause I mean for real, you're all you got, you know? At least that's true 99.9999999999999999% of the time. All I need is me. Other people are just gonna drag me down in the Sewers of Drama.

People who can't see through the social mask of people kinda annoy me. That's the type of naive thinking that lets people get away with murder and serial killing.

I think that's why people like BG are loved so much you know. His kind of empathy is definitely what is lacking in the world.

And I just did not feel one iota of empathy from anybody growing up lol. Just a few friendly buddies online from a distance (and my ONE romantic soulmate) ...but I never felt somebody be empathetic at to me at all in reality besides that. I always sensed an inner rage in them and how they wanted to destroy me and fight with me and the animalistic 'kill or be killed' mentality. Maybe I was doing something unconsciously to bring it out of them? I'm really shocked and surprised and amazed when I meet somebody who is truly empathetic, not just a shark who is pretending to have empathy to get money so they can go on rich vacations that those old republicans like to go on. Hehe.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Oh and:

I sensed a lot of people be superficial nice to me for their own image. But it was all a facade. Once they stopped having to look good for some sort of authority figure, they immediately cut out the act and went right back to trying to bully me cuz I'm a sensitive gay male. They immediately descended into their true nature as somebody that is not capable of connecting, and everything before that was just a show, like what Dexter does to pretend to be normal.

God I see RIGHT THROUGH people I swear! It's a GIFT. ((I want to work in law enforcement I think...they really could use my insight. =p))

TRUE FRIENDS ARE SOOO NICE. EMPATHY CAREBEARS FTW!

[Oh Hey Guy]

*yawns and stretches, gracefully stepping out of his lurker's cave*

Oh, hey guys!

I visit the forum from time to time. Used to be a bit more active but...meh. This thread is so ridiculous it just enticed me to shave, tidy up a bit and leave my pleasant cave of lurkdom.

I'm not in the mood to do a lot of research again so I'll take the hard and dirty path: spouting opinions and insights to see what happens and learn stuff. From what I gather, it seems like some (ok I'll be honest, in my mind mostly Maritsa) have confused the Fi-POLR with damn near sociopathy. Everyone on some level is capable of empathy/sympathy, but obviously the amount will change. I don't think ILEs would be any less capable of empathy/sympathy, but they probably don't know how to handle it, much less express it. Another idea is that they simply feel that different things are worthy of empathy/sympathy, so come off cold and uncaring.

One thing I'm realizing is the heavy dependence upon subjective data like "my friend is an XXX and when he does this, that is reflective of his Xx function". Not sure how much I like that, but I suppose you can only be so objective with a social science


As for the ****** being an ILE thing...well...



Just look at those eyes, bursting with Ne!

[Creepy-Snaps]

If ****** is ILE (and please don't dispute his type, it's not my objective in this thread), then what about him is considered empathetic, if he is a normal ILE?

******, LOL.

Ty, Ashton. ******=

Maritsa, if you wanted to debate ******'s type, why not name the thread after him? Instead of disguising your interest in ILEs and empathy?

Btw, you're EIE.

/thread

[Aleksei]

It's incredibly amusing how everybody, even people who otherwise suck at typology, thinks Maritsa's an EIE.

Except Maritsa of course.

[stray]

It's incredibly amusing how everybody, even people who otherwise suck at typology, thinks Maritsa's an EIE.

Except Maritsa of course.

I'd buy ESE maybe.

She also said she types ESTJ in MBTI, so there might be another excuse there to justify it. Also, I don't care if you think they are two completely different systems. I'm just saying that ESJ might be closer to her general schtick.

[Aleksei]

Actually, Si is closer to than it is , but it's easy enough for an type to get, because Augusta (like, well, pretty much every Jungian theorist) got Si wrong. I'm Si-aux for example (I'd be Fe-dom as well, but my compulsive need to apply logic gets in the way -- my Te is simply stronger than my Fe).

That said, I'd buy ESE for Maritsa as well; except that she described distinctly Victim-like traits in one thread (traits that oppose Caregiver, even). Her most obvious character trait, however, is simply her astoundingly shitty Ti.

[Beautiful sky]

LOL; shouldn't you guys be asking my boyfriend about me? He gets to love me all the time and he knows me well.

*yawns and stretches, gracefully stepping out of his lurker's cave*

Oh, hey guys!

I visit the forum from time to time. Used to be a bit more active but...meh. This thread is so ridiculous it just enticed me to shave, tidy up a bit and leave my pleasant cave of lurkdom.

I'm not in the mood to do a lot of research again so I'll take the hard and dirty path: spouting opinions and insights to see what happens and learn stuff. From what I gather, it seems like some (ok I'll be honest, in my mind mostly Maritsa) have confused the Fi-POLR with damn near sociopathy. Everyone on some level is capable of empathy/sympathy, but obviously the amount will change. I don't think ILEs would be any less capable of empathy/sympathy, but they probably don't know how to handle it, much less express it. Another idea is that they simply feel that different things are worthy of empathy/sympathy, so come off cold and uncaring.

One thing I'm realizing is the heavy dependence upon subjective data like "my friend is an XXX and when he does this, that is reflective of his Xx function". Not sure how much I like that, but I suppose you can only be so objective with a social science



Just look at those eyes, bursting with Ne!

Fascinating.

Alpha's generally reflect the sentiments of the currant culture; knowing ILE, they tend to bring ideas of the current culture together; for instance, my ILE friend is writing a book on an issue in American society that is of very big concern, childhood obesity. She is a good supporter of people who want to do things and she will lay out ideas they can try. She is much more logical and doesn't get carried away with feelings, but I feel that because I do, she's often uncomfortable around me. Do I expect her to feel for things like I feel for them, hence putting some sort of pressure on her PoLR? IDK. I feel for kids who are facing public schools that don't have healthy nutrition programs, she does also, but she's much more willing to demonstrate work, action, and not just feelings.

I do want some more of her time for me, some more time to our friendship because it's a relationship. She seems to be selective about that and she also seems to want to be left alone more often. I remember reading about how Einstein used to go fishing all by himself and used to walk down the street staring down and avoiding passerby's. Just like him, she isn't very expressive, but again, I don't know what's going on on the inside.

[Oh Hey Guy]

Fascinating.

Alpha's generally reflect the sentiments of the currant culture; knowing ILE, they tend to bring ideas of the current culture together; for instance, my ILE friend is writing a book on an issue in American society that is of very big concern, childhood obesity. She is a good supporter of people who want to do things and she will lay out ideas they can try. She is much more logical and doesn't get carried away with feelings, but I feel that because I do, she's often uncomfortable around me. Do I expect her to feel for things like I feel for them, hence putting some sort of pressure on her PoLR? IDK. I feel for kids who are facing public schools that don't have healthy nutrition programs, she does also, but she's much more willing to demonstrate work, action, and not just feelings.

I do want some more of her time for me, some more time to our friendship because it's a relationship. She seems to be selective about that and she also seems to want to be left alone more often. I remember reading about how Einstein used to go fishing all by himself and used to walk down the street staring down and avoiding passerby's. Just like him, she isn't very expressive, but again, I don't know what's going on on the inside.

Well, I self-typed myself as ILE, and I can tell you when I feel someone is expecting some sort of emotional response from me its just kinda strange. I'll show some things, but they will not be extreme. Obviously it depends on the situation, but generally a really strong emotional display for me is just...off setting. I don't mind showing my emotional side, but I put restraint on myself. Not seeing that in someone else just makes my mind go "what....what are you doing? is that necessary?"

Aaand the bolded part? Huge weakness of mine lol. If you aren't in my face or getting my attention somehow, I'd probably lose contact. I'll literally see someone I haven't seen for the longest time and in my mind they're still "friend status". Its more about knowing that I like the person for their personality, and if that hasn't changed, it doesn't matter if we hang out every day or once a month. I've never really considered a friendship something that needs work.

And yeah, sometimes people just need time to themselves nothing wrong with that. Again, I'd not too heavily rely on socionics for this stuff All sorts of personal experiences can come into play, off the very limited information I can go off of, I'd say to just ask your friend "hey, do my emotional outbursts freak you out?"

Edit: Aleksei, that captioned picture in your sig is hilarious. Wheres that from?

[Spiro]

****** is ENTp

Alpha because he had an idea of a society which was unrealistic and extraverted because he could control, talk others, manipulate a machine and drive the other quadras to back him up in the drive for a perfect society (or a perfect idea). He took ideas of the "aryan" race, mixed it with a bunch of BS and sold it to Beta, for military and idea backing...everyone else were soldiers. Took ideas and know how they fit into a system, got Beta to support that system with POWER.

I honestly haven't known a single Alpha extravert who hasn't been judgmental about their "idea" of the perfect society and how they would love to get "rid" of people to formulate that society.

I really just want to be left alone. Otherwise, I don't care what society does.

[Creepy-male]

Fi-PoLR in terms of basic cookie cutter socionics means that ILEs usually have a hard time gauging where they stand in terms of relationships.

An ILE may invite themselves along with people that don't really like them, assuming in a blanket kind of way that everyone likes them, being oblivious to the feeling based Fi bonds between individuals.

It does no imply sociopathy.

Another common thing they do is say un politically correct things... which is not the same as lacking empathy. The un political correctness comes from lacking the insight of the system of Fi bonds between a group of individual is a culture or subculture. Due to this lack of insight they may say things that go against the accepted cultural values.

They aren't socioapths, but usually positive people who tend to argue in a smart ass kind of way that offends certain cultural values. Think Family Guy. They also tend to be a little bit more bright with their Fe and alphay... kind of humorous. Were as beta Fe in terms of social criticism is darker, satirical and more polemic imho.

[Blaze]

HLD, the things you mention imply that ILE has difficulty understanding people's relationships and other people feel about these relationshps. if ILE has difficulty identifying these things then they are not going to proceed in an informed way vis a vis people's feelings and relationships. they will have difficulty putting themselves in another person's position unless they have clear and direct emotional indicators (Fe).

seriously folks let's call a spade a spade. come on. no one is going to convince me that ILE's are as empathetic as ethical types or even as empathetic as logical types who have ethics in the role function.

on the other hand ILE has no malice towards others. ILE is not sociopathic or psychopathic in the sense of having a desire to abuse or dominate others. they're not wired for empathy but it doesn't mean they want to kill people, shit. and it doesn't mean they don't care about people, they do.

nobody wants to own having a problem with empathy. empathy problems are politically incorrect. nobody really wants to get honest about what these fucking POLR's are really all about and what they're like to deal with in practical application.

the upside of all this is clear and flexible logic. bright and fantastic visions of possibilities...possibilities that can help people. a sense of fairness and concern. logic is refreshing! it's based on material data. it's not murky and clouded with hard to define feelings of "attraction and repulsion".

you can't have relational empathy and clear logic both at once. it's a basic underlying tenet of this whole theory! you can try to shift between the two but if you are weaker at one then you still aren't going to succeed using that one no matter how hard you try. so you might as well go with your strengths.

if you really want to know what's worth considering it's not how empathic people are, it's how "empathy" is just so much emotional manipulation that is ultimately self serving anyway. i mean what do people really do with empathy but manipulate other people into doing what they want or into doing better for themselves, as defined by the "empath." they try to say that it's all for the person's own good and they say we should try to help the object of empathy define what is for their own good. these efforts a lot of times fail. people do what they're going to do.

i just think there's a lot of relativity to all this. but what doesn't help is to try to sit there and pretend that people aren't for real weak at this or that.

[Creepy-male]

HLD, the things you mention imply that ILE has difficulty understanding people's relationships and other people feel about these relationshps. if ILE has difficulty identifying these things then they are not going to proceed in an informed way vis a vis people's feelings and relationships. they will have difficulty putting themselves in another person's position unless they have clear and direct emotional indicators (Fe).

seriously folks let's call a spade a spade. come on. no one is going to convince me that ILE's are as empathetic as ethical types or even as empathetic as logical types who have ethics in the role function.

on the other hand ILE has no malice towards others. ILE is not sociopathic or psychopathic in the sense of having a desire to abuse or dominate others. they're not wired for empathy but it doesn't mean they want to kill people, shit. and it doesn't mean they don't care about people, they do.

nobody wants to own having a problem with empathy. empathy problems are politically incorrect. nobody really wants to get honest about what these fucking POLR's are really all about and what they're like to deal with in practical application.

the upside of all this is clear and flexible logic. bright and fantastic visions of possibilities...possibilities that can help people. a sense of fairness and concern. logic is refreshing! it's based on material data. it's not murky and clouded with hard to define feelings of "attraction and repulsion".

you can't have relational empathy and clear logic both at once. it's a basic underlying tenet of this whole theory! you can try to shift between the two but if you are weaker at one then you still aren't going to succeed using that one no matter how hard you try. so you might as well go with your strengths.

if you really want to know what's worth considering it's not how empathic people are, it's how "empathy" is just so much emotional manipulation that is ultimately self serving anyway. i mean what do people really do with empathy but manipulate other people into doing what they want or into doing better for themselves, as defined by the "empath." they try to say that it's all for the person's own good and they say we should try to help the object of empathy define what is for their own good. these efforts a lot of times fail. people do what they're going to do.

i just think there's a lot of relativity to all this. but what doesn't help is to try to sit there and pretend that people aren't for real weak at this or that.

Yea I agree, but the reason I personally dislike discussing PoLRs is because of this kind of thing.

I see socionics as a "cognitive" type theory. Personality types defined by differences in cognition. A PoLR then is a weakness, but a weakness in cognition, not character. Character is built from how people learn to manage their personal strengths and weaknesses imho. The ILE PoLR is rather cut and dry is just a weak sense of cognition when it comes to "Fi". Its having insufficient cognitive information when it comes to relationship ethics, its the prospensity to gloss over and overlook this information habitutally in preference for other information.

[Blaze]

Agreed, it is a theory of cognition and information. Many in psychological circles believe that cognition drives behavior and emotions, so there you have it.

Appreciate your thoughts on character....it takes a strong and honest person to acknowledge their faults. Related to the concept of character is that of spirituality, which I believe gives us the ability to view our embedded type from a higher perspective. Everybody is weak in some area....we are naturally flawed, and far from God. Trying to see ourselves through the eyes of God allows us greater humility.

[Beautiful sky]

I think that they may be empathetic, but not in an F way, as a fellow ILE PM'd me and shared their thoughts on this subject. I do feel that they get so passionately wrapped up in the structure of their projects, as they tend to be interested in many projects at the same time, that and diversion from their work, or how they perceive it might go, tends to get the ILE very angry. Anger to me is an emotion and sometimes it begs for cooperation and empathy from others.

[Filambee]

I used to have a hard time empathizing with people when I was younger, middle school and high school. If people didn't agree with me or feel the same way that I did, I just thought they were stupid and that they deserved the bad things that came with their illogical decisions. Once I learned that people's minds think very differently from one another and I sought to learn the reasons behind individual mind sets whether with psychology or their personal history, I was able to understand their behaviors and feelings which made me feel compassion towards them. Understanding is the path to empathy for me.

[Beautiful sky]

I used to have a hard time empathizing with people when I was younger, middle school and high school. If people didn't agree with me or feel the same way that I did, I just thought they were stupid and that they deserved the bad things that came with their illogical decisions. Once I learned that people's minds think very differently from one another and I sought to learn the reasons behind individual mind sets whether with psychology or their personal history, I was able to understand their behaviors and feelings which made me feel compassion towards them. Understanding is the path to empathy for me.

This is very interesting because from what you wrote, when you were young, you made concepts, tried to fit the ordinary occurrences into boxes, but from perception of Ne, you evaluated that concept and now you view the broadness of human nature; they are not just patterns to you. What I don't understand is why it would be in this order rather than the reverse, as you are a Perceptual type.

[shindaiwa21]

People must meet a certain standard to be eligible for empathy from me, or earn it somehow.

I have very little empathy for bad decision making unless I feel the person is of value, so I tend to feel much more empathy for animals most of the time than for humans.

[Ave]

Most of the healthy ENTps I've known are easily capable of empathy, and I've seen it from them several times throughout my time of knowing them. The fact that this question even has to be asked is frustrating as hell.

Theyre capable of putting themselves in other's shoes, because of their .

Looks like Michaal Jackson had some of his pubic hair tansplanted and had it done into a mustache.

[MisterNi]

Lets not confuse empathy with sympathy. I can feel empathy for someone who deserves it and sympathy for someone who wants it and that's it.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Would you consider ILE to be empathetic? In what way are they or not?

If they were not, they would all be Cluster B personality types, which I doubt is true. Ti creative times are usually not over-connective like Fi types desire, but that does not exlude all of the internal funtions of their brains to form empathy. And, as the last poster more than implied, its highly easy to mistake sympathy and empathy, which also means that its highly difficult to guage ones' own empathy and its meaning.

[Reuben]

JADAE??? are you the same jadae as eons past?

[MisterNi]

Would you consider ILE to be empathetic? In what way are they or not?

If they were not, they would all be Cluster B personality types, which I doubt is true. Ti creative times are usually not over-connective like Fi types desire, but that does not exlude all of the internal funtions of their brains to form empathy. And, as the last poster more than implied, its highly easy to mistake sympathy and empathy, which also means that its highly difficult to guage ones' own empathy and its meaning.

So ILE - capable of showing empathy except some are better at it than others. Would you say that's fair?

[Creepy-pokeball]

If they were not, they would all be Cluster B personality types, which I doubt is true. Ti creative times are usually not over-connective like Fi types desire, but that does not exlude all of the internal funtions of their brains to form empathy. And, as the last poster more than implied, its highly easy to mistake sympathy and empathy, which also means that its highly difficult to guage ones' own empathy and its meaning.

So ILE - capable of showing empathy except some are better at it than others. Would you say that's fair?

I dont know that its that absolute.

Hi Reuben. I thought you'd still be in Portland, but did you move again? Its too bad because the metro is beautiful, although Portland proper is expensive and cramped.

[Reuben]

I'm not mcnew, jadae.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Ah.

[Aquagraph]

I'd say ILE's are pretty capable of understanding the feelings of others like everyone, though they just might be observing it distantly if they so wish. They can be cold and calculative without much effort nor affection.

They tend to know a lot of people, but none of them very well. They aren't the sort of type that misses a lot of people as the new acquaintances demand all their attention.

[Leader]

Not sure I have much experience with ILE's but ****** isn't ILE, he's in Delta.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Every type has empathy, even ENTjs and ESTjs =p but it probably just works in very different ways. ENTps still feel guilt and empathy if they rape the innocent inner fag in us all, although they are more competitive and powerful than an INFp or ISFp is, usually.

Being orientated to thinking means that you can bypass ethical concerns easier than the other types and just do more things that you want. But still, if you go too far any type feels appropriately guilty unless they have a sociopathy disorder. It's only human.

[MisterNi]

So ****** isn't ILE. He's most likely some kind of aristocrat.

[Gilly]

****** was EIE. For crying out loud.

[Beautiful sky]

Food for thought...I referred a client to an ILE acquaintance and she's said, "Maritsa, if you ever want to have coffee with a female friend on a Saturday, please give me a ring." My intentions were to build a friendship with her, but it seemed that she needed a clear show of goodwill and needed to see that someone cared about her work.

[Reuben]

The ILE fi-PoLR manifests as such:

With Ti in the ego block, the ILE chooses to use Ti instead of Fi. They are Information Elements that compete with each other for the same resources. If you are using Ti, you are NOT using Fi, and vice versa. It is as impossible as breathing and swallowing at the same time.

Ti is categorical, objective, and sharp. It sees the mental essence and thought structures of every situation and person, and judges them, weighing them on fair and balanced scales. Justice is Ti.

Fi is general, subjective, and soft. It sees the ethical values and relationship structures in every situation and persons, considers them, and resonates/experiences dissonance with them. Mercy is Fi.

Fi-PoLR thus manifests in an ILE not considering the resonance of their values and the already existing relationship between them and another person before providing judgement on their mental essences and thought structures. For instance, an ILE may come up to a stranger and say "Hey man, your business is not doing well because you're not dreaming big enough." He completely ignores the fact that the stranger will not resonate with his astute observation and hence act with hostility against the ILE. The ILE will feel offended by the stranger's hostility, and believe that the said stranger is too subjective instead of objective. His dual will attempt to soften relations, and make the ILE realize that the stranger's hostility is not to him, but to his ideas, and similarly make the stranger realize that the ILE's criticism is not towards the stranger, but his logical essence.

An ILE without an SEI can only succeed if he puts Fi before Ti, i.e. resonating with the person's values, understanding him/her, and showing sincere concern, before giving a Ti judgement and observation to show that he intends to help, and not simply destroy through criticism.

ILE's can empathize, but they must put their 'easy Ti' after the 'difficult Fi'. It's called eating the vegetables first.

[MisterNi]

The ILE fi-PoLR manifests as such:

With Ti in the ego block, the ILE chooses to use Ti instead of Fi. They are Information Elements that compete with each other for the same resources. If you are using Ti, you are NOT using Fi, and vice versa. It is as impossible as breathing and swallowing at the same time.

Ti is categorical, objective, and sharp. It sees the mental essence and thought structures of every situation and person, and judges them, weighing them on fair and balanced scales. Justice is Ti.

Fi is general, subjective, and soft. It sees the ethical values and relationship structures in every situation and persons, considers them, and resonates/experiences dissonance with them. Mercy is Fi.

Fi-PoLR thus manifests in an ILE not considering the resonance of their values and the already existing relationship between them and another person before providing judgement on their mental essences and thought structures. For instance, an ILE may come up to a stranger and say "Hey man, your business is not doing well because you're not dreaming big enough." He completely ignores the fact that the stranger will not resonate with his astute observation and hence act with hostility against the ILE. The ILE will feel offended by the stranger's hostility, and believe that the said stranger is too subjective instead of objective. His dual will attempt to soften relations, and make the ILE realize that the stranger's hostility is not to him, but to his ideas, and similarly make the stranger realize that the ILE's criticism is not towards the stranger, but his logical essence.

An ILE without an SEI can only succeed if he puts Fi before Ti, i.e. resonating with the person's values, understanding him/her, and showing sincere concern, before giving a Ti judgement and observation to show that he intends to help, and not simply destroy through criticism.

ILE's can empathize, but they must put their 'easy Ti' after the 'difficult Fi'. It's called eating the vegetables first.

That sounds good but you're basically just restating that ENTp are Ne-Ti-Se-Fi and are Si dual seeking with Fi-polr . Good prose though, you're not a bad writer.

[Spiro]

It's called eating the vegetables first.

[VILEvenezuelan]

Maritsa, did you start this thread because I flaked out on responding to your PM the past several months? jk haha

This looks like a game, and I can play games. If I pretend ****** is ILE(don't care enough to type him), I imagine post WWI Germany. I imagine lots people in a depressed postwar environment. I imagine a young ****** surrounded by peeps who are upset about how things are in their lives. I see ****** not actually getting how to empathize like regular folks, but his squishy Fe wants everyone to be united and happy again. So rather than deal with people's Fi directly, he uses Ti in place of it- "you are suffering? I'm sorry! I can't understand or influence what's inside you, so it must be a structural problem. Something out there is the cause of these woes. Or someone...." queue us vs. them demonization and scapegoating. ILE's are the types who will try to make everyone feel good with cleverness because it is validating, sometimes at the expense of others. Paint that on a psychopath, and who knows? ILE's are capable of empathy, but its not an "always-on" awareness, it takes significant conscious thought. Exactly why I like working for ORGANIZATIONS with a good-cause mission I support- if the ends are noble, the ends can justify whatever tactical means I use to do my job, and I never need to check myself for things like "ethics" and "empathy".

That said, he has a conviction/commitment, an un-wishiwashiness that feels so....(to think of it as a utopian mastermind ILE might) foolish and counterproductive. Such an ideological commitment isn't pandering enough and doesn't allow for course-correcting. Better to have a figurehead represent each ideology that you can distance yourself from if need be to retain public favor.

All postulation, of course.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, did you start this thread because I flaked out on responding to your PM the past several months? jk haha

LOL ROFL



Of course not

You're welcome to flake all you want. I know you have things going on, everybody has things going on.