what if socionics was bs?

[sar]

Has anyone here considered that maybe socionics doesn't work?
Hopefully I got some great s out of that comment. Now, I'm not by ANY MEANS trying to disprove anything...I'm more simply putting out a "what if"-type scenario. After reading some Bacon and Nietszche I've started truly understanding that man is capable of incredible mental gymnastics and that if he wants to make hell out something, he can. Heaven, sure why not? So, what if a lot of these intertype relations were just a bunch of bullshit? (not saying it is!, again...it's a what if?!) In fact, I bet that if you "change" your type, and see what your relation would be with someone else, you can find some pretty interesting results. i.e. you'll see that you can convince yourself of a lot of different relations fitting with the descriptions. Why is that? It's because relations are VERY complicated and you've more than likely had atleast some characteristics of the different relations in ALL of your relations...so who decides what certain elements are to stand out? and why? It's obvious to me that once you start seeing what the relation you "Should be" having with someone is, you'll make it so (self fulfilling prophecy)... I know socionics highlights that intertype relations are complicated and blah blah blah but has anyone ever thought about any of this before? p.s. I believe everything in this world is subjective and there is no such thing as an "objective truth"...when this perspective is considered (and actually considered)...several "sciences" including socionics sort of come onto question...sorry...this came off a bit more like mind blah-ness but..yeah. thoughts?

P.S. will someone please f*cking answer my "john frusciante" question! (it's under "Famous people") I'll be sad if no one does...

[Creepy-male]

I acknowledge it in the same manner one acknowledges a new scientific idea, and not the same manner one acknowledges a religion.

I think its only really a social science paradigm in the east and isn't above criticism. I appreciate it for its practical use and the mental thought it inspires.

What I don't do is get involved in it as a core belief system, where I take it to be the gospel truth. I don't seek out relationships based on socionics based criteria, as I am skeptical of it's ability to type people beyond a certain practical level, which is really ideally where I'd like to connect with people, in deeper terms than just that practical surface level.

[sar]

good to know. I think that's a good way of looking at it

[woofwoofl]

It works!

I've stared down an unfriendly LII twice my size, and his brain jammed up completely and he backed off - it worked

I did my best to temporarily lighten things up and go ESE-lite to make my presence less offensive to a group of predominantly Alpha quadra people - it worked

I've helped Delta NFs by doing calming and comforting things for them instead of my usual "fire things up" approach - it worked

I've done, and will continue to do, lots of things along those lines, and more often than not, they'll work and if not? Then it was probably me that flubbed something up somewhere down the line...

[tcaudilllg]

It works!

I've stared down an unfriendly LII twice my size, and his brain jammed up completely and he backed off - it worked

I did my best to temporarily lighten things up and go ESE-lite to make my presence less offensive to a group of predominantly Alpha quadra people - it worked

I've helped Delta NFs by doing calming and comforting things for them instead of my usual "fire things up" approach - it worked

I've done, and will continue to do, lots of things along those lines, and more often than not, they'll work and if not? Then it was probably me that flubbed something up somewhere down the line...

Impressive... who else is using socionics in this way?

[stanprollyright]

The impression I got from that video is IEE.

[woofwoofl]

Impressive... who else is using socionics in this way?

Thanks! I don't know who else is using it in this way - I'd suppose some people are, but I really like finding applications for the stuff... I'll cross-post an example from the "what is Te?" thread:

I just bought a pair of pants.

I researched the background of the company and found that they manufacture uniforms for military and law enforcement, so the pants should be sturdy and workable for active wear. I saw that out of 33 reviews, 31 of them were 5 star reviews, with one 4 star review and one 3 star review. A combined total of 67 out of 68 people voted for the first three 5 star reviews, so I read them. I looked at the 3-star review and saw that the person didn't like that the pants had a gusset in them that was huge by his standards - this was not a problem for me at all, functionality is a part of my style anyways!

For $35 (shipping included), I'm getting more "pants" for my money than the standard average, and they're even ahead of my own curve! Black is nearly impossible to mismatch, and since there's a sense of formality to them, I should be able to match them with a black sport coat (which I'll test later in store) - I match a brown sport coat with a pair of fisherman's pants (a type of high quality, lightweight cargo pants that cost $55 each), and it works, and this should be less of a gap to bridge... and if it doesn't work? I still have good pants!

I ordered the pants - I'm in between sizes, so I went for a larger size due to reading a highly liked review, in favor of the pants, that said they ran a bit small. And a belt comes with it too - worst comes to worst, it can be donated to charity, and someone gets a really sturdy belt... best case scenario? I get an awesome belt!

My end goal is to assemble a Beta quadra friendly wardrobe of sorts, in addition to a more Delta quadra friendly one (which will be heavier in earth tones and accessories - I should pick out a scarf, preferably hand-made if I can work it), so that if I know what situation I'm getting into as far as people are concerned, and I know the score at least a little bit, I can hopefully make everything work better for everyone (and if worst comes to worst, I'll still have a clothing upgrade and more style points)...

You're in Alpha, so I suppose this sort of thing could work well for you also (first things first, I'd replace all jeans with cargo pants - they're both more casual and more formal than jeans, and their vibe should work particularly well amongst Delta people)...

I was also able to pull out of a massive songwriting slump

I thought it was a good idea to move towards something more mellow and texture-like, but I did so in such a way that abandoned all of the energy and rhythm that came easily to a heavy valuer like myself... since then, I started hammering on things again, but I've been keeping an eye out for textures and patterns and stuff (and I'll outsource the texture decisions to an valuer)... turns out there's nothing wrong with what I was doing before, just not enough things right with what I was doing...

[krieger]

what if the president of the US was a watermelon? i'm not by ANY MEANS trying to disprove anything...

[Korpsy Knievel]

Has anyone here considered that maybe socionics doesn't work?

Welcome to the blasphemer's club. Socionics has some practical merit but for the most part it's psychology-flavored sophistry that fools many adherents into believing they're tinkering with actual science instead of merely shuffling cognitive biases and semi-plausible assertions around.

[Slacker]

There's something to socionics, and it has some relevance to how relationships work, but it isn't the end all be all, and every word should be read with a healthy dose of skepticism.

[blackburry]

There's something to socionics, and it has some relevance to how relationships work, but it isn't the end all be all, and every word should be read with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Yeah, this. Besides, no one should be living their life by it eitherway. I usually take it into consideration after a relationship not before or during or think of it casually when dealing with someone I don't like but have to deal with, ie coworkers, just to pretend I understand why they suck.

[Creepy-]

The ideas in Socionics such as cognitive functions and intertype relations assumes (or rather, implies) that all internal and external variables remain static. It is purely hypothetical, and while it may make a few accurate observations about different personalities and relations among different personalities, socionics as it is can only exist in a vacuum.

Existential angst ?

More like valid question.

[ashlesha]

The ideas in Socionics such as cognitive functions and intertype relations assumes (or rather, implies) that all internal and external variables remain static. It is purely hypothetical, and while it may make a few accurate observations about different personalities and relations among different personalities, socionics as it is can only exist in a vacuum.

i like this answer

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Socionics does exist, my parents are too obvious an esfj and intj couple for it to not make perfect sense. It's just a lot of people refuse to objectively understand the functions.

Rick's site is VERY informative, and like 99.9% accurate imo. ((He's a little heterosexist imo but I won't be too annoying gay picky about stuff.))

http://www.socionics.us/relations.shtml#5

What specifically are you having issues with? Can you narrow it down into a more logical arguement? Perhaps I can help.

[jessica129]

Some of those intertype relationships all sound the same to me. The only ones that are vastly different from each other are Duality and Supervisor/conflict.

[chip]

Your original statement is emotionally loaded. Socionics is a theory which means there is evidence to support or disprove the theory. When two people who would be identified as duals have a successful and fulfilling relationship as lovers, friends or buisness partners that is in support of the theory. The opposite outcome of a dual relationship disproves the theory. Simply put: how do the facts add up? All I'm suggesting is apply the theory appropriately and that is case by case instead of a sweeping all or nothing generalization (i.e. what if Socioics is BS)

Jung - the father of psychological types - read Niteszhe too and as a medical practioner he noticed psychological patterns in Nietzsche's writtings that would suggest to not completely entrust in the word of Nietzsche. Of Jung's commentary one comment stood out: Nietzsche was extremely egotistical. Another was: his writings were devoid of all facts. Jung was a genuwine psychologist and Nietzsche was a self-proclaimed psychologist who considered himself better than a real psyschologist.

As a lasting point: I recently realised duality at work. I was having a conversation with an ENTP-ISFP dual pair. The ENTP was giving me advice that was basically all about trying out different places to have sex. Bascially as the conversation would progress I noticed there is a real harmony between them. Not in terms of what he says and what she says but their interaction was in harmony. They disagreed and she would be offended by his lack of etiquette but even still her actions seemed in proportion to his. The energy between them seemed so natural and even. There was no sense of dominance and submission whatsoever. Common sense would say they seem like an odd couple because he is so outlandish and she is classy but when you sense their energy and the way they both act with each other - that sense of complete consciousness comes across. They are a perfect couple because they are perfect for each other. It hit me. They have a yin and yang relationship but they hardly ever do the lovey dovey mushy "I'll love you forever and ever" b.s.

[Ezra]

Has anyone here considered that maybe socionics doesn't work?

Then it doesn't work. We move on in life.

[golden]

SOCIONICS IS PERFECT AND ABOVE CRITIQUE.

This forum proves how it works--see how it helps us understand ourselves and get along so very well?

[Azeroffs]

SOCIONICS IS PERFECT AND ABOVE CRITIQUE.

This forum proves how it works--see how it helps us understand ourselves and get along so very well?

QFT

[Crispy]

Socionics works unless ur tpyed rong.

[Bluenoir]

I find it accurate on my own anecdotal level, as for anything beyond that, I can't really say.

What I have found useful, is the vocabulary and shorthand that socioncs has given me to express ideas such as or ect ect.

It works!

This is the kind of religiosity that initially drove me away from the theory. Look at this stuff with an open mind; but don't take it all at face value on nothing but the anecdotes of the "cult" so to speak.

[Absurd]

After paying attention on and off on here I can say that it's going to be a hell of a ride. There are a few people on here who claim to be one type and at the same time purposefully exhibit, say, a plethora of types just to get in if you know what I mean.

Scenario #1:

For instance one typed himself 2 types in the beginning, then settled on a third one, sticks with it, and then after some time of course, seeing the influx of new people into community, starts to play a game, changes views, colours, allegiances, starts being friendly to achieve a goal of some sort.

Scenario #2:

Funniest part is people who expressed contempt and utter hatred, or to put it more, I don't know, softly (?) dislike towards such individual(s), are now alright with it.

The question is, who is mistyped here ? Person in scenario #1 ? People in scenario #2 ?

[stanprollyright]

In a way socionics is b.s. It's a big oversimplified mess trying to throw some theoretical mumbojumbo onto a few observations of a psychologist who mainly worked with mentally ill people, and whose direct predecessor told me I am supposed to kill my father, fuck my mother, and every time I eat a carrot I'm really dreaming of sucking a cock. Psychology has come a long way since then, socionics really hasn't.

BUT...

Socionics takes into account several principles that psych doesn't address, and learning socionics helps you to understand and utilize these principles in life. They are:

People are different than you. People think differently, act differently, and relate differently. If two people see the same information and come to a different conclusion it doesn't mean one of them is stupid.

These diferences occur in observable patterns. Having certain strengths means having certain weaknesses. Maybe they aren't exactly the same as the IEs describe, but having a general idea that someone who excels at productivity and logic may not be so good with feelings and relationships can open a lot of doors to understanding people.

You get along with some people better than others. And they aren't just the people you have lots in common with. This can help a lot of relationships just knowing that simple fact without even studying the relationships themselves. And the relationships themselves are based off of a lot of observation. Maybe they don't quite correspond to what you think should happen, but hey, if a relationship starts to seem like supervision, you are much better able to deal with its supervision-related problems.

[sar]

fuck...I honestly just made this thread cause I am a) moderately skeptical and wanted to raise an interesting question but most importantly b) I wanted someones to take 2 min. from their life and give me an opinion as to whether they think this guy is iei or eii! ugh...

[woofwoofl]

What good does skepticism do, other than slow down how fast you can devour and apply info? As far as I'm concerned, everyone in the world is right about something until they're proven wrong, and when that happens to me, I'll change my position so I can be right again

Any time you take something as complex as a human being and try to condense their actions and thoughts and all into something this portable, some stuff will fall through the cracks - but so what? Wouldn't all of this energy used in doubting and complaining be better spent towards growing the theory? If there's something wrong with it, and you know it specifically, then fix it! Branch it out some! I'm up for checking out any idea that comes my way, and I'm always glad to hear them. Ideas aren't handed down from Mt. Olympus from some mysterious "other", they're at everyone's command...

[sar]

ugh...i can't win

[woofwoofl]

ugh...i can't win

Not like that, you can't!

Figuring out John Frusciante's type sounds like a thing I'm semi-interested in, but more people would come along if you made your post a bit bigger and showed your rationale behind you going IEI or EII - that way, you'll stimulate more conversation and figure out why either choice is a solid one!

I learned that my conclusions won't matter nearly as much to anyone without me showing my work on how I got there - this also has the nice benefit of letting me know if I butchered something along the way, so I can stop making a mess of things if I've been doing such a thing...

As for you... Beta NF I think, probably IEI! cheer up, Semi-dual, and don't be afraid to make things a bit lengthy!