Model B

[Olga]

Model B Part 1

Circles of evolution/swastika

I would like to present a piece of information about Model B which hopefull will be presented at a later stage as an article. This information is based on already existing information in socionics about the evolutionary and evolutionary circles of progress which I mention briefly here.

Jacubovskaja ( “socionincs - how to understand yourself and the others“ -2003) suggests that the laws ruling the psychological world is similar to those ruling the physical world. The circle of progress consists of 4 dual couples and can be presented as swastika. Swastica represents 8 cosmic powers: 4 of them are moving in the direction towards the centre and the other 4 away from the centre. There are two swastikas turning in the direction towards each other and so to do the 2 circles of progress: evolutionary and evolutionary.

Each circle consists of 8 types: 4 extroverts and 4 introverts or four duals. Evolutionary circle: istj -enfj, infj-estj, esfp -intp, isfp -entp. Involutionary circle: esfj -intj, estp-infp, entj -isfj, istp - enfp. In each swastika, introverts play the role of direction to the centre and play evolutionary role which is associated with the correction and conservation and the evolutionary role is in dynamic changes in the external world.
The two circles moving in the direction towards each other create the resistance and provide feedback for the socion.

Now I would like to apply the idea of two opposite flows of information and interpret the model B from this perspective. Jacubovskaja also suggests that the ideas of extraverted inspire introverts - therefore it is possible to suggest that the flow of info should come from the extraverted functions towards introverted ones.

For INTJ the evolutionary circle will 4 functions: Ti and Te and Ne and Ni. (the 1 and the 7; and the second and the 8 accordingly to model A). If we agree that the direction of the flow comes from the extraverted functions then we shall interpret it as follows; Te triggers Ti, collected Ti triggers the creativity Ne, Ne produces Ni. If we describe it with the name of the functions it will souns as follows:
Control function (7) attracts attention of programm/base function (1), base function demands the action from the creative function (2), the creative function results in the production of demonstrative function .(8)

What is interesting to look at - in extraverts, the Ego and Id function will represent the opposite direction and namely - involutionary circle.

I am sorry I have to stop now otherwise I will be late to work. Please, give your comments if you wish.......The information is abstract but we can look into real life examples too.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I dont think any swastika model is going to go over very well in America :wink: lol

[Angel von Himmel]

The Swastika really isn't associated with Nazional Socialism, even though it was used by the German Political Party as an easily recognizable emblem it has more in common with mostly non-dualist, especially those who believe in reincarnation and time purity cycles and the like. Though, I do agree that the 'word' swastika is a cultural turn-off for Americans. I think it that regards it should be avoided.

[MysticSonic]

It's pretty much associated with Nazism exclusively in circles of those without concern for the spiritual.

[Jonathan]

I like this model B stuff...who came up with model B? Makes a lot more sense to me than model A. Instead of the oppositely-poled functions being called "7 and 8," now they're part of an integrated process. I like that. Tell us more. What is the model B of INTp? Or of ENTp?

[Angel von Himmel]

It's pretty much associated with Nazism exclusively in circles of those without concern for the spiritual.

This is only partly true ... part of National socialism's intent was to create false histories associated with druidism, and to a certain extent that involved [though most did not believe it in a full extent] various myths of transformations into other animals and beliefs that seem very similar to predestination and reincarnation. This is besides the fact that National Socialism is basically an extreme form of Rousseau's social model, which was based on a mixture of Calvinism, Druidism, Newtonian Theory, and Platonian Theory, which pretty much says it all right there if one is actually familiar with the reasons for the implications of all this.

[Angel von Himmel]

Just read the history ...

http://history1900s.about.com/cs/swa...ikahistory.htm

[Angel von Himmel]

This one is even better! It has a picture of the "Star of David" with a big swastika in the middle of it ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

[Creepy-]

It's pretty much associated with Nazism exclusively in circles of those without concern for the spiritual.

This is only partly true ... part of National socialism's intent was to create false histories associated with druidism, and to a certain extent that involved [though most did not believe it in a full extent] various myths of transformations into other animals and beliefs that seem very similar to predestination and reincarnation. This is besides the fact that National Socialism is basically an extreme form of Rousseau's social model, which was based on a mixture of Calvinism, Druidism, Newtonian Theory, and Platonian Theory, which pretty much says it all right there if one is actually familiar with the reasons for the implications of all this.

Not that we know a great deal about Druidism, what we have is purely from extra-cultural observers and probably politically motivated.

[Angel von Himmel]

It's pretty much associated with Nazism exclusively in circles of those without concern for the spiritual.

This is only partly true ... part of National socialism's intent was to create false histories associated with druidism, and to a certain extent that involved [though most did not believe it in a full extent] various myths of transformations into other animals and beliefs that seem very similar to predestination and reincarnation. This is besides the fact that National Socialism is basically an extreme form of Rousseau's social model, which was based on a mixture of Calvinism, Druidism, Newtonian Theory, and Platonian Theory, which pretty much says it all right there if one is actually familiar with the reasons for the implications of all this.

Not that we know a great deal about Druidism, what we have is purely from extra-cultural observers and probably politically motivated.

Modern day Druidism is mostly just a hodgepodge concoction of almost any native based belief system that existed before the coming of Christianity to Europe. For example, you have Druids today that believe in reincarnation as it has been practiced in the east, yet there is no direct evidence that the achient druids believed in reincarnation in exactly the same way, except that they believed in a type of shapeshifting and transformation that could occur during life and also at death, and usually in connection with a belief that mankind could eventually be sent to some sort of Underworld at death. Also, I think there is more evidence that Druids of the west and of the past may have had more of a linear view of history, and not a circular one such as is found in the east and in Hindu religions. But, that may have been from Christian influence and not on account of their own.

[Kim]

Regardless of historical awareness and knowledge, in this day and age one is well-advised to refrain from designing a model after a symbol that many many many people associate with oppression and murder.

[Angel von Himmel]

Regardless of historical awareness and knowledge, in this day and age one is well-advised to refrain from designing a model after a symbol that many many many people associate with oppression and murder.

Not necessarily opression and murder [though that was the end result], but the replacement of Christianity and Judaism for Deist principles, social control, enviromental control, and common similarity that was hidden under nationalistic principles. However well Rousseau's principles look on paper, in the real world it sucks ass and killing people to strictly follow his social model is a horrible solution in my opinion and it is a shame that the swastika was used as a symbol of that, because it really ment quite the opposite.

[Rocky]

Opression and murder.

[Slacker]

swastika = bad idea.

[Creepy-pokeball]

The Swastika really isn't associated with Nazional Socialism, even though it was used by the German Political Party as an easily recognizable emblem it has more in common with mostly non-dualist, especially those who believe in reincarnation and time purity cycles and the like. Though, I do agree that the 'word' swastika is a cultural turn-off for Americans. I think it that regards it should be avoided.

I already knew that. Im saying that it is still not a good idea. It isnt...how shall I say this... persuasive =) Or symbolically neutral. Pick one.

[Olga]

Thanks to all for the comments.
If I would not have mentioned swastika and just talked about evolutionary circle of Life ( shall we call it circle/block L) I and involutionary circle of Death (circle /block D) I would not have found out that interesting information about ancient wisdom thanks to Rmcnew. I do like this give and take relationships!

The fuss about 'swastika' reminds me that one about the 'Islamic cartoons'. If it upsets somebody's ears, shall we drop it or what? We can not turn the history back and take the dust from the 'well known old' in the same way as Muslims can not rename 'Roses of Saint Mohamed' back to the 'Danish pastry'...they still don't mind to eat them though!

Model B, the theory of mine is in the process of development and I welcome everybody to contribute, to share ideas, any comments etc... It has been named as ‘Butterfly Model’ due to it’s look and shape. I assume that in psychologically healthy individuals it may have the shape of a perfect butterfly/symmetry due to the right distribution of strength in the functions (Note, in psychologically unhealthy - the shape may be distorted due to the power struggle and misbalance).

INTJ: Ti………...I………….Te

Ne …….I……….Ni

Se…...I……..Si

Fi………..I…………..Fe



The structure itself does not change, but it fluctuates and is always in the process of movement or experiencing. Depending on situation or the immediate use of the function your Self or I which is the middle point in the structure is sliding towards different directions. This is a flat representation of the model. To describe the full picture we need to use our imagination to suggest that the real structure represents a flow of energy in a spiral shape, where circles L and D feedback to each other, struggle for power and the whole structure moves either up or down - psychological processes which contribute to the development of personality. So, it seems so simple as nothing new has been said. I see association here with the already existed knowledge (egg shell structure of multiple fluctuating bodies around the core/soul: physical body, the body of thought, body of emotion etc), the power struggle of God and Devil… and you in the middle of it!

Sorry, I have to stop now. I am under huge time pressure due to my personal circumstances but I will try to post new material whenever I have chance. At the moment I would like to add that we are at the stage of abstract knowledge, I am trying to make sense about general laws of psychological functioning which can be applicable to any type.

[Olga]

Sorry the butterfly shape structure of INTJ type came out a bit crooked.
I did not mean that.

[Olga]

The direacton of the flow does not just go in circles. In order to provide feedback and balance between two wheels (L & D), it must go in number 8 shape. If the Superego block will be avoided we may come to understand the mystery behind the number 6.
It well possibly be that the direction of the flow can be from time to time chaotic or blocked and therefore is confined to a particular path... in a similar way like nuerons in the brain?
The ancient world was building stone circles for their rituals/calendar and in Egypt people were building pyramids in triangles. What is the magic behind the pyramids?

[Kim]

The fuss about 'swastika' reminds me that one about the 'Islamic cartoons'. If it upsets somebody's ears, shall we drop it or what? We can not turn the history back and take the dust from the 'well known old' in the same way as Muslims can not rename 'Roses of Saint Mohamed' back to the 'Danish pastry'...they still don't mind to eat them though!

Sure, if you want the majority of your potential listeners/readers not even give you the time of the day because of all available symbols, you chose the one most emotionally charged, feel free.

I think it's idiotic, rude and insensitive.

[Gilly]

The fuss about 'swastika' reminds me that one about the 'Islamic cartoons'. If it upsets somebody's ears, shall we drop it or what? We can not turn the history back and take the dust from the 'well known old' in the same way as Muslims can not rename 'Roses of Saint Mohamed' back to the 'Danish pastry'...they still don't mind to eat them though!

Sure, if you want the majority of your potential listeners/readers not even give you the time of the day because of all available symbols, you chose the one most emotionally charged, feel free.

I think it's idiotic, rude and insensitive.

Way to be hypersensitive. It's just a symbol. Get over it.

[Kim]

Way to be hypersensitive. It's just a symbol. Get over it.

And what would you know about this? Have you ever heard holocaust survivors speak and heard how they feel when they see or hear about those symbols? No? Well, I have. So shut the hell up.

[Gilly]

Reeaaaooowww.

[Angel von Himmel]

Way to be hypersensitive. It's just a symbol. Get over it.

And what would you know about this? Have you ever heard holocaust survivors speak and heard how they feel when they see or hear about those symbols? No? Well, I have. So shut the hell up.

If it didn't mean something, it wouldn't be a symbol now, would it? Not that American's arn't to blame for the holocaust, either. I mean, it was texas based IBM other companies who contracted themselves out to help the Nazional Socialist to help them catelogue their "slaves" for processing, for peats sakes.

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:...s&ct=clnk&cd=2

Sadly, companies are still doing the same for China, take Cisco security systems supplying the country with voice and face identification, for example ...

http://rconversation.blogs.com/rconv...n_cisco_i.html
http://www.fofg.org/news/news_story.php?doc_id=1154
http://www.legalaffairs.org/printerfriendly.msp?id=964
http://www.legalaffairs.org/issues/J...r_janfeb06.msp


Shouldn't that make a person angry? I think it is better to take some responsibility here.

[Olga]

Well, I didn't mean to upset anybody or get noticed because of the emotionally charged symbol. I was surprised to find out that swastika had another positive meaning. If somebody takes the God statue and makes a devil statue of it - I would blame people who did it, washed up the original statue and put it back where it should be.

I don't mind not to use the symbol but I find it interesting how people react and think: why that? If I should feel sorry for all who suffered from Nazism - and that is why not to mention symbol, then surely I should feel sorry for Muslims and be sensitive to their feelings too. I still do not regret to have seen them.
I could say that what I write is not for everyone to here or to read and I simply don't care about those who does not share my interests, why should I? I do not share everyone's interest either. This is not the reason. Jacubovskaja is Russian and the material about swastika I took from Russian book. Why is that Russians do not care or may be they suffered less from Nazi? It may well be that those who is hypersensitive to things like that are simply not ready for a change yet or may be the reason is hidden somewhere in the type?

I still would consider those comments as a positive advice, thank you, and if you have noticed I used a wheel of Life and Death instead. I might change later Death for something more nice too, something like Supernatural!
Peace and flowers? :wink:

[Olga]

It’s Gamma time - get ready for a ride!

Firstly, I would like to summarise the progress of the theory so far and move forwards in explanation of the model without going deep into detail. If you remember, I started with the butterfly shape statement as idea of balancing of psychological functions and then moved to cross shape, mentioned that the two lines of cross represent two lines of Balancing (horisontal) and Identitiy search (vertical). Then theory moved to the shape of a circle, ancient symbol which represents two wheels involved in evolution (Life and Death) and we identified the top block (Ego + Id) of the model as Wheel of Life and the bottom one (Superego + Superid) as the wheel of Death/ Supernatural. Wheel is associated with time and changes in time -calendar. I also have mentioned that the flow of info - energy goes in a shape of 8 in order to provide a feedback.

1. Meaning of the wheels or why we die?
Bock Life. Shall we have a further look at the meaning of the wheels. Block Life consists of Ego (Reflective Self -base function and Executive Self -creative function). The Ego block can be identified as the main centre which is associated with free will and soul. The Id is a defence/survival mechanism aimed to keep us in life, to provide a temporarily relief and sweeten it up a bit. Animals also have got Id but they do not have Ego developed to a degree of humans so this difference surely is the reason why they do not go to church though they do have souls too. We love animals as they do help us to relax into life - they are our little brothers and we do have things in common.
What for do we have Ego or free will ? We do not just take things as they are but want an answer: Why? We search, learn about this world and ourselves. Therefore, I would associate block Life with vertical line of the cross - Identity line. This is line which is directly associated with statement of Jesus : “No one comes to the Father as only through Me because I am the Way and the only Truth!” That means Jesus is guidance to the truth, to finding the answers and Jesus is associated with search for identity: we can not come to the Father without being born as a human with a free will to make decision and to act.

2. Block Death. If I ask a question : do we need death?- it would sound idiotic, though we can come out with a few reasons like : it would be not enough space to keep everyone on Earth and etc. We would not wish to die but we would not wish to live without the power to enjoy the life in full, without being able to exercise free will. The question of death is simply not our choice, we can speed up the process but we all will have an end sooner or later. Humans like to believe in human power and reject the Higher Will but humans did not create Life but Life was created for them. And do you want it or not once born into Life you have to play by the rules and accept the luggage of Good and Bad going hand in hand. People are allowed to make plans within the limits, but Death was a plan of God . How and why did it happen exactly - is up to you to believe or not. It may well be that we were initially made to enjoy ‘animal’ life (Id ) and it is not surprise that Id pushed Eva wish for more fun and joy and she may well wished a better for Adam. As you know women can be very manipulative so it was not long until Adam got into a real … (read trap).
The clever reptile knew what would make Adam different from animals and pointed towards the Newtonian apple. This is how we ended up on Earth on one hand and became involved in star wars on the other hand. Therefore, the answer is simple: Superego/God and Superid/Devil are built into your thinking device and have direct access to your Self. You will hear the voices of different sorts in your head (mind is corrupt!).
Therefore, the wheel of Death represents Morality -Antimorality dimension (new dimension for socionics!). It is associated with Mind/brain and correction of feelings and actions -balancing. In our search of Identity we surely can’t escape offers from Superanatural block. The idea is not to escape but rather to balance the relationships between Soul and Mind so that two wheels work smoothly.
Next time we shall have a look at the possible directions of the information flow between the two wheels. I will welcome critical advice of those socionists who has got idea about the laws of mechanics and how the energy flows and why.

[Megan]

Hi to all,

Thanks to Sergei who sent to me the link to the articles I have managed to get in touch with one of the lecturers at the School of Socionics in Moskau.

Her name is Tatiana and she writes about personality development and some other issues. She said t me that nowdays many people try to develop their models of psychological structure/ informational metabolism.
So a few other models already exist (model Ch and model F and etc...). She said that model "B" already exist brecause of the socionist with the name Bukalow . At this moment I have got no intentions to change the name for my model.

I have got a link to Tatiana's articles but they are in Russian. It would be good if somebody could translate it via automatic computer system and if possibple, paste it into the article section? I am sorry i have not got time now to do it. But I though it would be good to get some idea what knowledge already exists before we consider Model B when it wil be more or less finished. I will try to get info about other models as well. If somebody will find out any info about other exsiting models could you please paste a link to this topic or if translated paste it into article section.

Many thanks

http://www.socionics.ru/menurazvit.htm

[Jonathan]

I'm not sure about all the symbols, etc., but the thing that I like about your theory and wish you could expound on more is this idea that INTj starts with produces . If I extrapolate on what you said, it seems INTp would go something like this cycle:

-> -> ->

This is very different from anything else I've been reading about in Socionics, but it seems to me that my thought process often involves that becomes recontextualized as .

If I'm around someone with , I understand that with and and then I think about it more, and the structure produced by is then understood through , and then celebrating the process of discovery through and completes the cycle.

I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone, but I see your theory is the only one that even mentions something like this. Of course if this is true, then when an INTp is at the part of the cycle, or likes that part, that person will see himself as INTj or ENTp; and similarly if an INTj is at the part of his cycle, he'll appear maybe ENTj or INTp.

[Megan]

This is an interesting explanation, I did not think about it before but I see it is one of possibilities for people to confuse the type. Prkofieva also mentioned that functions can be developed differently (strength) through time - and we already knew that - didn't we?
I was concentrating recently on the flow of info, I consider the model as a cube shape not as a flat shape. So it will be interesting if you Jonathan will suggest how the info may flow and expressed in functions depending on situations.The model can not suggest something very simple and at the same time to reflect on the whole complexity of sometyhing like human psyche and behaviour at any particular point in time and space.

I have got some ideas but the major conclusion I have arrived so far: different routes of info flow can be choosen and this will depend on situations and type characteristics. I can't spent much time on a model now because I want to finish my study once and for good... But Procofieva mentioned that there are a few people who have got similar approach and her new article will be similar but not talking about Life and Death wheels (cleverly avoiding swastika and the like!) but about informational metabolism of strong and weak functions as related to personal and collective knowledge. So as you see we talk about the same things but coming from different perspectives depending on the interest and may be ...strong functions ?

[Olga]

Wheel D and information flow


I would like to suggest how the information flows in the Wheel D and to consider further the possible differences-similarities between the types. At this moment, it is not important if you consider the model as a flat model of a butterfly or a three dimensional shape.

I would associate Wheel L as a positive/evolutionary process of informational metabolism because it is relatively easy and smooth and explorative and creative in nature. Wheel D represents a negative/involutionary process because it is a weak wheel which associated with hard work and worries and is sensitive and protective/conservative in nature.

As far as I remember Young wrote that triggers or stimulants of conscious processes are in unconscious processes. Please, correct me if I am not exact. Jacubowskaja said that extraverted types/functions stimulate introverts/introverted functions- something like that- when she talked about swastika.

I would suggest that we are differentiating between different sorts of information and this process is not conscious. We experience a huge flow of info and our unconscious is our safe guard otherwise we would be like a radio working simultaneously on all waves and could go mad easily. The type is prescriptive in what kind of information we attend in a positive and negative ways. That means that two wheel have got their own tasks and work in harmony to complement each other by digesting different information.

For example, INTJ and the wheel D. INTJ’s are very sensitive to overt emotion like ISFJs but their reaction will be different because it will fall onto different wheels. Extraverted emotion, like a screaming child, will make them both to react pretty immediately but ISFJ will grab the child to cuddle and INTJ would rather escape or will try to shut the child up by using the force from the point of authority because it is intolerable.

The reaction of types is different because ISFJ was born to deal with it and INTJ was born to do a primarily different things in life and for that he needs peace and quiet which suit’s the best for concentrating thinking activity.

So I would assume that in the wheel D the information flows from the suggestive function 5 ( I do not change the names or numbers of the functions so that it will be easy to understand) to function 6 which becomes activated and put pressure on the function 4 and 3 so that information becomes available for conscious . Then (if you consider a three dimensional shape of cube) the info from the third function flow to the Reflective Self (1 base function) which pushes creative function 2 to do the action (Executive Self).
In the cube shape it is easy to imagine how the info flows from one wheel to another in order to give the feedback.

As I said previously, it may well be possible that the routes are many or different form the ones I propose. We need to consider real life situations to check them out. As not intuitive type I move in my understanding by trial and error - making suggestions and feeling them.

The interesting question is about extraverted types. Would we suggest as Young that their introverted unconscious function stimulate and trigger the processes in both wheels or …we shall something else?

Please, feel free to think together!

Cube for INTJ - is not shoing the cube in a preview but I hope you will grasp the idea anyway.
.......

......




.........


..........

[Olga]

Firstly, I would like to deviate slightly from the topic and to put info about the theory of moral development (Kohlbeg 1969, 1984) once again as I believe it is relevant to the theory of personality development and the principles I mentioned before.
Kohlberg's thought about moral development has been stimulted by the Piagetian theory of cognitve structural development. The meaning is that we develop intelligence moving from one stage to another - upward progression, don't skip the stage and etc. What I find interesting about moral development theory that it implicitly suggests that Life has got meaning in itself - in the soul's search or the search for your identity. The development starts with child- adult opposition and it finishes again with the individula developing integrity - a stable core of the personality to withstand the pressures of life. As if we learn first to obey, to listen to others, go through life in order to find your true colours, your real self as an adult. Here is a theory:


Moral Development Theory (Kohlberg, 1981) holds that individuals progress gradually from a primitive, egocentric morality which is associated with obedience to external rules and fear of punishment to a moral stage culminating in adherence to self-chosen universal principles of fairness and justice. Thus, the way in which people think undergoes a series of qualitative changes as they get older.
The first stage is formed during early childhood up to the age of 8 when children learn to obey the powerful others and justify their actions by references to punishment or labels (e.g. you do not steal because stealing is wrong). The second stage is associated with growing understanding of the motives and interests of other people
and moral judgements being justified by reference to mutually profitable exchanges (e.g. ….). Stage 1 and 2 are immature stages of moral reasoning which constitute a reconvention level of moral reasoning.
At stage three the individual makes an emphasis on the relationships between people as the key for mutual understanding, support and trust. Stage four of the moral development is characterised by reference to the social system and moral judgements are justified to the extent they serve to maintain the system. These stages constitute the conventional level of moral reasoning.
At stages five and six the individual forms a hierarchical system of values which allows him to differentiate himself from the rules and expectations of others. Moral judgements are justified by reference to the universal human rights and duties. The highest levels of principled moral reasoning which constitute the post conventional level of moral reasoning are believed to be achieved by a minority of adults after age 20.

I got the feeling that we strt the development with the Id block and we finish with the Ego block. I have an idea about the dynamics of the development but I need to look deeper into this question.

I would like briefly write about Mark Chapman who killed John Lennon. He had an identity spit or officially he suffered from narcistic personality disorder. I found his case very intersting because he describes his psychodynamics in a such detail. He mentions the opposition of God and Devil He asscociates God (Superego block) with Adult (Ego block) and Devil (Superid block) with child (Id block). I the model B it means a split in the each of the wheel or in another words split of the identity. The wheels move and bring to his conscious the conflicting messages from Id/Superid and Superego/Ego.
Mark Chapman and Emily Rose - both evidence the presence of the Devil but in a different way. Mark Chapman was in clear thought, wished to kill himself and could not, so he kill somebody else instead by free will - he made a choice between the two voices in his head and aquired the identity through immoral act. While he claims that he had no power over his action he clearly states the abilityto make the choice and was actually praying to Devil. Emily Rose, on the other hand is believed to be possessed - no way she could harm anyone or kill herself by free will, she seems had no choice on her condition. Was she a special person touched by God and chosen to suffer? Some people believe so. What were her psychodynamics?

[Olga]

There are lots of posts of critics towards socionics. Socionics is just another perspective on the man, behaviour, psychology and etc.
socionics uses different langauge and does not say new things but rather try to interpret what was already known. It uses wholistic approach or tries to without any particular theoretical ground or theoretical direction... the prediction of behaviour is there but the interrelationship theory is far from perfect. This is a knowldege about all types.. what to expect, it is still in the process of development. Not to worry that the founder is dead - people are born every minute, there will be new Einsteins and leaders of all sorts.

I find a lot of associated knwoledge: moral development theory and socionics. For example: evolutionary and involutionary powers - how logical types are complemented by the corrective ethical types, reflective self and executive self, base function and creative function - the world consists fo oppositions of all sorts- binar. Have a look at this:

Kohlberg and Candee (1984 p13 Th) emphasize the importance of
moral integrity and moral principles as components of moral behaviour. The moral principles refer to logical and dispassionate application of principles of utility and justice. Moral integrity, on the other hand, is associated with behaving in the way one believes to be right. Moral principles and moral integrity lead to formation of the two related moral judgements: judgement of Rightness and judgement of Responsibility According to kohlberg and Candee (1981), the individuals reasoning at the higher stages are more likely to identify situation as morally significant, to conceptualise the morally appropriate behaviour and to take the responsibility for their own actions. The individuals reasoning at lower stages of moral reasoning are believed to be less attentive to moral clues present in the situation and more likely to be confused regarding what action would be identified as morally appropriate and if the individual should take responsibility to carry out the moral action.

I am sure you can find such associations in the field of your knowledge and I really hope that one day exact scinces will help us to translate us behaviour in numbers and codes.

[Olga]

I would like to show how easy to see associations between the new and old theories knowledge which already exist as a fact in psychology, nobody has got doubts about old good theories which have been proved by scientific research. I will describe it briefly as it may seem boring for some people.

Piagetian theory of the development of cognitive structures was a ‘father’ theory for Kohlbergian theory of moral development. The Piaget’ theory actually explains how one thought/ theory produces another which is similar but qualitatively different to the original one at the same time. It also shows that reflective Self is a mastermind to executive self. The neuroscientists also recently came to the conclusion that those body functioning which has been believed to be autonomous is actually governed by the cognitive centre in the brain. It looks like nothing happen without a reason and the presence of mastermind/God becomes more obvious for the scientists in everything they do. Well… I agree that it is still a way to go if we wish to explain it in more detail. Please, have a look what is known about Piagetian theory which can be associated with the base and creative functions on one hand and lead us to think what block (Life or Death) are largely involved in providing us with balancing and identity.


“ By contrast, the cognitive-developmental view assumes that a dialectic exists not only between moral judgement and action, but between all cognition and experience. This interaction between the person and his /her environment, between subject and object, forms the essence of the Piagetian model of learning and development. The point here is that thought and action are intertwined; looking at either one alone, one misses the innate interdependence of the psychological processes leading to moral action. The stimulus - response (S - R) model assumes a relatively passive learner responding reflexively to environmental stimuli.
The Piagetian model, on the other hand, stresses reflectivity over reflexivity. Thus stimuli are reinforcing only to the extent that they become meaningful to the individual.”

“ The quality of interaction between the self and others involves a continual equilibration process described by Piaget (1963) as the organism’s adaptation to the environment. It is by adapting to things that thought organizes itself, and it is by organising, and it is by organizing itself that thought structures things (Piaget 1963)”.

If we think back to the dilemma what was first : a chicken or an egg? The Bible says that in the beginning it was a word. It looks like Piaget believed that at the beginning it was a thought?

“ The equilibration occurs when the outside stimulation from an environment is similar enough to a persona’s present organisation to allow understanding and absorption.. Here the person is able to bend the reality event to fit his present structure. The equilibration also includes outside stimulation dissimilar enough to ensure optimal pressure or conflict to encourage a person to adjust to new ( slightly different) realities in the environment”

It is also believed that The Life does not give you a challenge which you can not handle and the weight of the cross you carry is up to the strength of your shoulders.

[Olga]

Why is Life block (momentum) is more important than Afterlife (Death) block (future)? Is the existance of religions as a guidance justified?

I know what I can, should do - responsibility of adult but …I need what I want right now - childish and powerful Id. The momentum is stronger than future and rationalizations of what you should do. If you can stop momentum and rationalise than you may can escape the vicious circle. Momentum is related to the irrational world of emotions and can be explained by imbalance between emotion and thought or feeling and logic, irrationality and rationality. The imbalance happens on subconscious level so it is hidden from our full understanding of WHY we get a desire to do this or that; Why the thought comes at this particular moment. All we get as a thought that now I want this…. Then we rationalise why we might have this desire. Rationalization may be right or wrong or we may not even bother to look for the reason.

How does imbalance happens?
For example, we want a cup of tea/coffee not because we are thirsty but because we have concentrated on some thought for a period of time and need a change. It is mostly a reaction to the way we feel at the moment, distraction from the world and taking care of yourself. Taking care is not always healthy but it is a way to deal with your own inner world and this is more important than what happens later to you..

If you stop and think you may choose a more rational “adult” action, if you access Superego block.. That is what psychotherapy theaches you and commone sence too. If you start doing it more often - it will get into habit and help you to withdraw from doing what you should not. But relapse is always possible. Id sends very strong impulses when the balance between thought and emotion in the subconscious is distrubed. If you do mostly what ID said than we are talking about Sensitive or Weak Self and if you do what you think you should do ; then it is a strong Ego. The balance between Id and Ego is up to you, you need to exercise your free will appropriately and it will change the strength of Ego. What about qualityof Ego?

Terrorists may have strong ego, religious fanatics, military people, violent offenders and may be those with strong Si? The weak ego may be associated with rational thinking types and irrational feeling types?

If Ego strengh is assosiated with the power of Executive Self than quality of Ego may be realted to other factors: may be how well your balance all your fucntions, which will fedback to the Reflective Self (mastermind?).

Why is it easier to do naughty things than healthy things? Is it a teenage freedom to do what I want to do and not to care about the rest of the world, to feel freedom to exercise free will and just not to care….
What makes addiction that sweet, feeling good right now, enjoying life, feeling life …without hard work of jogging? Why are we attracted to do what we should not? Fun of living experience. It must be build into Life block otherwise we would not wish to live at the end. But we can get in trap if we shall choose the root of doing what we want and appreciating too much momentum that consequences and the vicious circle will be hard to break:

Goodbye, Papa, please pray for me,
I was the black sheep of the family.
You tried to teach me right from wrong.
Too much wine and too much song,
wonder how I get along.

[Olga]

I would like to consider the relationships between the different block, a few thoughts about psychodynamics of the model and introduce a few dimensions. Your feedback, especially critics very important because I may be incosistent at times and not actually noticing that. As you know my type is not strong at logic. I try to present material simple but if it sounds complicated -I would like to know that as well.


New dimensions

Following the discussion of the opposition of the Adult block (ego + superego) and Child block (id +superid), I would like to introduce more dimensions in the model. As you remember, the opposition of Superego and Superid was named Morality - Antimorality Dimension. The new dimension is Selfishness - Sefllessness which represents the relationship Id + Superego.

The relationship between Ego + Superid is a dimension but the name is not yet clarified. Ego represents free will and fights for freedom against Supersego and Superid. Superid id a dark, “uncontrollable” side of personality, which sends you nasty thoughts, fears, worries and the like. The aim of Superid to weaken the Ego by bringing challenges. Superego is a strict teacher which we do not always want to listen and obey. Superego is aimed to strengthen your Ego while Ego wants pretty much to be friends with Id and just to do what you want and to feel good. Unfortunately by doing what we want and by exercising the free will we always comes to dilemmas and can’t avoid Afterlife block’s suggestions. Relationships between block are not oppositions. I would assume that there is only one true opposition between Superego and Superid. Relationships may be for better (Id + Superego; Ego + Id) and for worse (Ego+ superego; Id + Superid). That means that all this different relationships if misbalanced can represent problems within the personality development.

Ego and Id are the “open channels” which mediate the energy/info from Superid and Superego. Ego represents the control on thoughts and behaviour. Id represents the animal powers and is associated with instincts: survival, reproduction, pleasure and can be further associated with selfishness. Superego is associated with social rules, norms, others and can be associated with selflessness. As I wrote before, I believe that people are potentially born with the misbalance on Id - Superego dimension. Childhood can be associated with Id but even children already show the difference on give & take dimension. Id + Superego dimension is a healthy relationship and process of personality improvement. For example, sex/food is healthy but within the limits.
Ugly and sick sex cults represent the pathological relationship between Id and Superid (Id +Superid). Jesus said: “eat bread -my body and drink wine - my blood“. There is no conflict between Id and Superego but a support on behalf of the God, how the best manage Id not to bring harm instead of maintaining pleasure. Life is a pleasure and was given as a gift for experiencing pleasure and exercising free will (Life block).

Ego +Superid: there is no need for Ego if there is no freedom (structured environment like hospitals or prisons, for example). Freedom suggests the presence of challenge, or a power struggle of the two or more free wills - people are social animals. The process of strengthening Ego is associated with the fight against a dark side within yourself or those who represent evil. Therefore, this relationship is a healthy process, which unfortunately is associated in reality with a number of psychological disorders depending on psychological type. Any relationship can be for better or for worse I guess, that is why they need to be balanced. To a certain degree we are protected against all possible negative influences and only reflect on those challenges which we can manage through our strong functions. I would think to call it preliminary as control - submission dimension. Please, feel free to help me with the name.

I mentioned that relationship between Ego and Superego (left wing of butterfly) as well as between Id and Superid (right wing of the butterfly) can be for worse if there is no balance between the wings. If overdeveloped both wings/wheels (Adult versus Child) represent abundance and power without common sense - balance. Wheel Adult and wheel Child can be considered as another dimension. Too much of Adult can lead to religious fanatism or cold blooded pragmatism (teachers, leave the kids alone…). Too much of Child wheel will result in irrational destruction driven by uncontrollable emotions of hate, anger, power, desire and etc. That is why Jesus asked the Father: "forgive them as they don't know what they are doing" and when he said so Hee did not mean only those who is scizophrenics and the like. On the ohter hand jesus mentioned:"you will not get into the God's kingdom if you will not remain a child". That is why Chrisitaniy is probably the best religion who reflects on the human nature and in a first place accepts the human nature the way it is before any guidance to give. You cannot truly love without accepting little fragments which complete the whole.The meaning is coded but not that difficult to guess.

Ego and Id relationship represents the process of getting freedom over influences, desires, temptations in life. I wrote about it before in one of the articles and may be later look into it again.

[Olga]

There are changes to cube model. I can not draw it unfortunately but I will try to describe. For INTJ and simirlar for any other type

Far end top:




Front top




Far end bottom




Front bottom




These changes are important they bring in agreement both shapes of the model (cube and butterfly) and will show the same direction of the flow.

I would like to clarify the flow of information in the wheels Life and Afterlife. However, the thought is not finished yet and gives you space to think….What is next?

At last (?) I have become clear about the “cube model” of model B and I will be using “butterfly shape model “ too. This is very general info:
1. I do accept that all conscious functions originate in subconscious/unconscious (or wherever Young meant!).
2. I suggest that they do not only originate there but they also end up there like in a storage place. Some of the info lays on the surface (subconscious ) and some goes deeper into unconscious.
3. According to model B: the beginning and the end is in the Child block which contains two blocks Id and Superid.
4. Rational types collecting info through the rational functions and attending to the rational info in the environment. They produce changes through their irrational functions. For irrational types things happen in the opposite way.
5.Socionincs suggest that some of the functions are contact functions and some are not contact functions. For example, for INTJ , socionics suggest that Ne and Ni and Fe and Fi are contact functions or in other words INTJ is interacting with an environment through these functions, while the other functions are for internal use only. I took this info on board and integrated it into the model. If you see on my cube model the contact functions are on the same side of the cube (front side).
6. I have elaborated on this idea a bit further and have came out with new conclusions. The idea is better understood if you refer to the butterfly shape of INTJ.

In the Life wheel the flow starts from the Te and goes to Ti. This dimension I call internal collective or internal collection of the info.
Then it moves from Ne to Ni - external productive dimension or external producing of info. Information flows into environment and this information is actually related to the function which triggered it in a first place - Te.
In the Afterlife block the direction of the flow is different. It starts with Fe and goes to Fi -external collective dimension or external collection of the info from the environment.
Then it goes to Se and Si -internal productive dimension or internal producing of info. Si as the result will be related to the function/environmental clue which initially triggered it Fe.

I assume that all these dimensions have got their specific purposesand can be used in the immidiate environment or have more long lasting effect. However, they have there are more specific purpose to any dimension. For example, internal collection and external producing is directed to bring changes in the immediate environment (block Ego). While external collection and internal producing serves the needs of the individual (block Afterlife) and is associated with future goals.

As you can see my new cube model is not in disagreemnt with butterfly shape and shows that info flows in the wheels in the different directions as it should be in swastika.

I assume that the same model can be applied to extraverted types. At this moment I would rather reject the notion that triggers are always due to extraverted functions and accept instead the following:
1. Subconscious functions are triggers for conscious.
2. The flow is in accordance with the purpose of the dimensions, which is the same for introverted and extraverted types.


I think it is a rich thought and can be elaborated further. The fact that the flow finishes with Ni in the in the Life block and Si in the Afterlife block suggests that it is what INTJ is heading for and this is the optimistic note. We shall find the INTJ who can predict (Ni) well about Te and who can use their power Se to create the inner peace Si. However, it may be not the end of the story…It is a hypothesis.

The fact that irrational types produce very rational outcome and rationals sound very irrational at times brings back the idea that I described earlier in the article about rationality and irrationality. That is why people may be confused between these two dimensions and can appear confusing to the others. Please, feel free to apply the model to your type to see if it makes any sense and share with me - I will be very thankful.

I am very sorry that at the moment I have got no time to look into new models appeared recently on the site, but I think it is great that we have lots of interesting ideas to think about .

[Olga]

I have come out with some idea how to explain statics and dynamics with model B. It sounds too simple to believe it is possible... to look for explanation from the perspective of the blocks and relationship between them. I have done cube models for all dynamics and it turned out one thing in common - they all have got their intuition of possibilities in the Adult wheel which contains two bolcks: Ego and Superego. I think this block may be corrective towards sub/un counscious functions as adult would correct the child. Surely ther must be difference between child and adult. So, we can assume that those who thinks mature do not need explanations what to do, they know what needs to be done. Statics will have in the child block - so they need to be told: go and do it!

Well, it may be that statics/dynamics dimension can be explained in a different way.
I did not look for another Reinin dichotomies but it may be possible to consider from the perspectives of interrelationships between blocks.
Please, let me know what you think and what you find.

[Olga]

Actually there is something else I would like to add not directly but indirectly about the model. I have not seen the film the Da Vinci code and to be honest not bothered too much what exactly happend or not happened between Maria and Jesus. I see their relationship as symbolising the relationship between Superego and Id where Jesus represents Superego or Guidance and Maria represents Id. The fact that Maria played a significant role in Jesus' life is reminding us that there is no conflict between Superego and Id and the need for the balance between the two. It may also be the balance in the relationship between man and woman like that model of...black and white fishes chasing each other (sorry forgot the name of the symbol).
If you press too hard with guidance on a pure soul, the pure soul can damage itself - something which happens quite often in everyday life. Respect free will.

[Olga]

Another way to look at the difference between and .
I will repeat what everybody knows in a simple words. Dynamics are preoccupied with the development of an object/event/subject in time. They are always driven by the motion directed into the future. For example if you give a half of an object to the dynamic person he/she will be thinking about adding another part which is missing or will know where to look for the missing parts.

Static will not be preocupied with the thinking what part to add, he would rather play with the part given to him and will try to do his best of what he has. This process requires a certain degree of focus on the task, concentration and is associated with analysis of what this particular object has to offer. We shall assume that it is rather related to present moment than thinking about the future.

For example children expect the adults to provide them with entertainment. You give a toy and show how to play. When the child had enough of the toy he will start to cry because he does not see himself what else he can do, his focus is on the present moment.


On the ohter hand blocks Ego and Superego are pretty much about :

Think what you are doing now because you will face concequences in the future.

[Megan]

My thought is not clear at the moment. I feel as if all introverted functions are limited in power compared to extraverted and that is why they have to be directed, so they are about direction. Extraverted functions got more power and it is more about abundance and multiple possibilites and than about choosing one direction.

It is possible to associate the corrective block of Afterlife as predominantly introverted and changes within you and your psyche and the block Life as extraverted and changes around you. .

[Olga]

I will go a step further and will associate blocks with certain functions. I love associative socionics.

Block Adult:

Ego - rational extraverted - +

Syperego - rational introverted - +

Block Child:

Id - irrational extraverted - +

Superid - irrational introverted - +