That's been my experience with them and I pretty much agree. I think R'as al-Ghul pretty much exemplifies this mentality in EIEs, and it's a stretch to lump the Joker (who is usually written as a vastly different character in all the ways that count) into his camp. Also ftr, ILEs aren't usually very "intellectual" - we prefer simple truths (as simple as possible, but not simpler) and the little things in life.Originally Posted by labcoat
Depends a lot on what you mean by intellectual. Interpreted in the most general way I disagree with the statement. But what I think you mean is that there isn't as much pretentiousness and bombasticism to ENTps' ideas. It has a lot to do with the fact they are actually trying to practically acheive something instead of just creating a personality cult.ILEs aren't usually very "intellectual" - we prefer simple truths
Fe-dominants can easily be agents of chaos, promoting their Fe on a mass societal scale. They just won't be personally chaotic - and the Joker isn't, he's a meticulous planner.
His entire goal is to make society see its own inner demons - to influence society on a massive scale. Moreover, he does make usage of minions periodically - he's almost always seen with his gang of clowns, he manipulates the rival mafia gangs in The Dark Knight, there's the bank robbery at the beginning of the film where he makes heavy usage of minions, and he runs his own gang in the comics.
Johnny Depp is an INFp playing his dual. Vito was played by Marlon Brando. Al Pacino's character, Michael, was either an LSI or an IEI - some kind of Beta introvert.
Last edited by Aleksei; 10-18-2010 at 01:32 AM.
What do these signs mean—,
, etc.? Why cannot socionists use symbols Ne, Ni etc. as in MBTI? Just because they have somewhat different meaning. Socionics and MBTI, each in its own way, have slightly modified the original Jung's description of his 8 psychological types. For this reason,
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function(extraverted sensing) is first and foremost associated with control and expansion of personal space (which sometimes can manifest in excessive aagression, but often also manifests in a capability of managing lots of people and things).
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
she has a controlled and exacting demeanor that i often associate with XSIs. to me she seemed to not be very responsive to emotional displays and gestures (ignoring - it could be this, and/or that she was just being coldly silent to people she disliked and had contempt for, which could be showing
actually.) she was also unable to be convinced otherwise once she had decided to burn down the cinema, her attitude being very firm and uncompromising: "we *are* going to talk about this, we *are* going to do this, and you *are* going to help me." (not her exact words; just trying to capture her attitude.) also she often communicated with
"that is not how i would describe my feelings about..."
"i want you to stop.."
"i do not wish to be your friend..."
"[he is] the best..."
also i do think Quentin Tarantino is possibly LIE, so i am slightly biased in that way, thinking it more likely that his heroine would be Gamma/his dual instead of some other type.
haha, i have seen Kill Bill but i forgot who's who and i don't remember if i had typed any of the characters, sorry.... and why is she more bad ass then Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill?
Ah I see. I think ESI is not a bad fit for her. I was kind of curious as to your reasoning.she has a controlled and exacting demeanor that i often associate with XSIs. to me she seemed to not be very responsive to emotional displays and gestures (
"that is not how i would describe my feelings about..."
"i want you to stop.."
"i do not wish to be your friend..."
"[he is] the best..."
also i do think Quentin Tarantino is possibly LIE, so i am slightly biased in that way, thinking it more likely that his heroine would be Gamma/his dual instead of some other type.
haha, i have seen Kill Bill but i forgot who's who and i don't remember if i had typed any of the characters, sorry.
Beatrix aka the bride is the main character played by Uma Therman. I think she's a more badass ESI
“No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov
http://kevan.org/johari?name=Bardia0
http://kevan.org/nohari?name=Bardia0
The main character, Uma Thurmanah, lol. yeah she's definitely badass, and i wouldn't be surprised if she is ESI too. i'll have to watch Kill Bill again.Beatrix aka the bride is the main character played by Uma Therman. I think she's a more badass ESI
What type was Grand Admiral Thrawn (Mitth'raw'nuruodo)?
My guess would be LIE. If not that, then possibly EIE.
Quaero Veritas.
Okay, so I'e been watching BAS clips again.
That series' Joker is almost certainly Fe ego.
Watching some DVD commentary, an excellent point came up--Batman and The Joker are played off each other as opposites. Where Batman is grim and sombre, The Joker is jubilant and gleeful.
I thus hereby submit for Loki to be "most badass fictional ILE".
ISFj vs. ENTp.Watching some DVD commentary, an excellent point came up--Batman and The Joker are played off each other as opposites.
People who type Batman as ISTj and Joker as ENFj actually have to believe that the two are duals. There is just no way to make sense out of that.
Also a valid
Ti vs Fi Batman I guess? From the Wiki article, one Batman commented that the Joker operates on bizarre internal logic that makes sense only to him.
One common Joker trait seems to be that he defines his very existence by his ongoing conflict with Batman. He's just perpetually playing games with his archnemesis. Also, Duals can be as much opposites as Conflictors, each in their own way. I understand Conflict is a difference of values & operating assumptions, while Duality is a difference of key "personality" (for want of a more suiting term) traits.
Anyway, unfortunately, the more I think about it, the less settled on any one opinion I get. I hope you don't mind a bit of circuitous debate
I'm not entirely certain but I do lean towards the Nolan version of the Joker as ILE, he isn't as image orientated as Burton's, it came across as more for his own self-amusement. Also the games he played with the bombs on the boats and the Harvey/Rachel kidnapping came across as Ne+Ti gone bad; he wanted to fuel his own sick curiosity into human behavior while simultaneously having no regard or understanding of
btw, for a real life example of this see Josef Mengele
EII INFj
Forum status: retired
I think the Joker and the Batman make the most sense as ILE and LSI respectively. Batman takes the Joker very seriously as a threat to the peace and order of Gotham, but the Joker doesn't take Batman seriously at all, and treats him rather like a child. Supervision makes a lot of sense to me, for them.
Quaero Veritas.
The funny thing about ISTjs is that "serious" isn't really the first word I'd describe them in. They have this sense of jovialcy about them, as if they enjoy their control over things and are very unconcerned about the weighty problems in what they do.
Under Reinin ISTjs are:
Emotivist, Carefree, Merry, Positivist
Phil McGraw is a person that I type as ISTj, in whom I see this tendency.
This is one of the reasons I see Batman as more of an ISFj. Serious, no nonsense and motivated by a strong sense of moral direction.
In my opinion morality, as an abstract and impersonal concept, it more closely related to Ti than Fi. Fi has more to do with personal relationships: in the case of ESI, forming close bonds and defending them. Batman forms almost no close personal bonds (even his relationships with Alfred and the various Robins are strained and distant), and tends to act based on an impersonal, "noble" morality which does not take into account personal bonds or preferences.
Still, ESI would be my second most likely typing for Batman, if it turns out I'm wrong about LSI.
Quaero Veritas.
Don't forget Krig that ESIs are holographic thinkers. I've talked to my mum about this and she most definitely judges people as good/bad, by looking at how they deal with their relationships.
But, uh, I guess I haven't actually contradicted you
I don't think personal sacrifice makes a lot of sense from the standpoint of Ti. I mean, when you look at the situation objectively there is just no reason why batman should make any more effort towards solving the crime issue than anyone else. The Ti solution is that everybody contributes evenly to solve the problem. The solution through personal action is more of a Te/Fi thing: Te says it's the only way it's going to happen in due time, and Fi defines it's responsibility in relation to this fact.In my opinion morality, as an abstract and impersonal concept, it more closely related to Ti than Fi. Fi has more to do with personal relationships: in the case of ESI, forming close bonds and defending them. Batman forms almost no close personal bonds (even his relationships with Alfred and the various Robins are strained and distant), and tends to act based on an impersonal, "noble" morality which does not take into account personal bonds or preferences.
Totally agree. The most prominent characteristic about Batman is his total insularity from others and his single-minded devotion to his cause at the expense of personal relationships.
I don't agree that there is even such a thing as "the Ti solution". That's one logical Ti solution. A Ti type might just as easily conclude "No one else is doing it, so logically I must act", or even "Each individual human has a responsibility to fight evil". It all depends on how that one individual's chain of logic developed, and where it ended up.
An LSI in particular would be more inclined to take action himself, due to his Creative Se (an LII would be more inclined to sit around strategizing about the big picture).
Exactly.
Quaero Veritas.
In Gulenko's Thought Styles article, he lists that the Negative/Result/Static types (INTj, ESTp, ISFj, ENFp) are typified by exactly that "insularity". Fi means the person puts the bar high where forging personal relations is concerned. In some cases that means there just isn't anyone around that fits the bill.Totally agree. The most prominent characteristic about Batman is his total insularity from others and his single-minded devotion to his cause at the expense of personal relationships.
Based on my experience, what you describe isn't how ISTjs behave much at all. The type description on socioniko.net (now down) used to list the fact that they are rather eager to initiate conversations with anyone despite being introverts. They're contact seeking and inclusivistic like any other beta.
It's more the case of his emotional insularity from others, his coldness and robotic demeanor, which is better explained by Ti as opposed to Fi ego.
That's how Bruce Wayne, the Fe-seeking jetsetter playboy, behaves when he's not Batman.Based on my experience, what you describe isn't how ISTjs behave much at all. The type description on socioniko.net (now down) used to list the fact that they are rather eager to initiate conversations with anyone despite being introverts. They're contact seeking and inclusivistic like any other beta.
Except Bruce Wayne is Batman's public mask. Inside his head, Batman is Batman, and loathes that behavior.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Depends on which version of Batman you're talking about, but I wouldn't say he loathes it so much as he finds it irrelevant to his task, outside of its use as a mask. An annoyance at most.
Quaero Veritas.
Right, I might have exaggerated a little, but the point is that Batman isn't an Fe-seeker, so much as pretending to be one (which sounds like
'Course, it does indeed depend on which edition of the Batman we're talking about, but the Dark Knight version Batman sees himself as Batman, and Bruce Wayne as an irksome public persona. I think proponents of that Batman depiction being ESI are correct.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
Well anyway, since we're not going to resolve this, Captain Sisko is a pretty badass ESI.
Other possiblities (?):
Jackie Brown
Chuck Norris
There is no ESI more badass than Michael fucking Westen. I guarantee it. And ESI is actually a pretty badass type.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
I think Chuck Norris is SLI. He has all the emotional expression of one.
Quaero Veritas.
Chuck Norris is all Socionics types at once. Chuck Norris cannot be defined.
He can also slam a revolving door.
What do these signs mean—
Just one example: in MBTI, Se (extraverted sensing) is associated with life pleasures, excitement etc. By contrast, the socionic function
For this reason, we consider comparison between MBTI types and socionic types by functions to be rather useless than useful.
-Victor Gulenko, Dmitri Lytov
are you sure? i'd be pretty surprised to find out he's any alpha or a beta NF.
Garth Marenghi/Dr. Rick Dagless M.D. is the most badass ENTp ever.
+1
Look for what you want there via google. I think socioniko's links are just busted.socioniko.net (now down)
Yeah, totally.I think Chuck Norris is SLI.
He's hard to pin down. I have been considering ENFj for a while (based on his moments of oratorship and drama), but was never very settled on the typing.Captain Sisko is a pretty badass ESI.
Mr. Toughest Man In The World
ENFj and ISFj are adjacent types on the Taciturn cycle. Our views may yet be reconciled.He's hard to pin down. I have been considering ENFj for a while (based on his moments of oratorship and drama), but was never very settled on the typing.Captain Sisko is a pretty badass ESI.
HE IS ALSO NOT FICTIONAL
HIS PRESENCE IN THIS THREAD IS UNWARRANTED
KGKJADGBUADFGHOAFADFRG
Most badass ILI ever: The character 'Heinrich Dorfmann' played by Hardy Krüger in the movie "Flight of the Phoenix" (1965). (Or the character 'Elliott' played by Giovanni Ribisi in the remake of 2004, which is not as good as the original film.)
Here is the intro (couldn't find an actual scene with him)
There are many conflicts between him and the Pilot Frank Towns (who migth be ESE) in the film and I think he is as ILI as someone can be. It's very interesting.
„Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
– Arthur Schopenhauer
Light Yagami is LSI, and clearly rational.
L is ILE however and far more badass then Light and far more of a irrational. He is described as having "a powerful ability to act like a fool."
Joker is ILE, Batman LSI, supervision relationship rather then conflict. Joker doesn't want to kill Batman and he probably considers Batman more a playmate then a enemy. Batman of course has no idea what Joker wants from him.
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