INTj political leaders
I just remembered that there are two very likely INTj political leaders in the public eye these days - besides Vladimir Putin, whom Russian socionists appear to type as INTj.
Angela Merkel, German Chancellor - not so sure but I think INTj is very likely.
Thabo Mbeki, President of South Africa - I have little doubt that he is an INTj.
Any comments?
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Not Al Gore.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
Gore is ENTJ.
None of those guys/gals look INTJ. Rudy Guiliani is a good example of an INTJ though: taking charge when everybody else is running for the hills, heh. The composed figure stepping out of the shadows.
Too bad he's Republican.
I have not based my typing of Merkel or Mbeki on their looks.
I can make a very good case for Mbeki as INTj based on his life and traits.
Al Gore, Angela Merkel, Vladimir Putin (and his right hand Sergei Ivanov, the minister of defence), late Francois Mitterand. No idea about Tabo Mbeki, I know noting about him.
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
That's increduous. Putin is clearly psychotic.
Al Gore is so ENTJ.... Only an ENTJ would have had so many credibility issues. Anyone who tries to make a science out of their personal relations with the people near and dear to them could only be an ENTJ.
Intj leader: Yesterday I cracked a hacking game online! omg! I havent showered in 50 days! I have no smell left in my left nostril because I once got to close to my armpit!
I read my acne was going to get removed if I sat closer to the screen! the only thing happened was that my eyes burnt away! <- AND THAT'S THE STORY OF HAVE ALL THE INTJS HAVE GLASSES! <-- GEEKWARNING!
is like a wet kiss on the cheek and a warm hug by a cute smiling girl.
is the confetti shots on your birthday party with all your friends.
is a way to completely rip apart the face of god and stare directly at the naked universe.
is like over here and then over there and they are all connected and I am on amphetamine.
Can you please explain?That's increduous. Putin is clearly psychotic.
No, it's a characteristic trait of Analysts (LII). As for Enterprisers (LIE), their thinking is rather business-like than scientific. They think in terms of processes, not "objective truth".Al Gore is so ENTJ.... Only an ENTJ would have had so many credibility issues. Anyone who tries to make a science out of their personal relations with the people near and dear to them could only be an ENTJ.
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
If Al Gore is INTj, and Bill Clinton, ESFp, that is interesting.
Hillary Clinton seems ISTj to me, making her Bill's supervisor which makes sense.
To me, Hillary Clinton seems to be ESTP, and her housebond, Bill Clinton, either ESFj or ISFp.
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
Sure. When they are young. But your "Model-A" doesn't describe the effects of individuation: the sustained emergence of unconscious functions into consciousness. This process emerges as a consequence of changes in the biological processes that sustain psychological functions, and it always happens at quarter-intervals of a person's psychological life. (25%, 50%, 75%, 100%) ENTJs Gore's age have learned to think inwardly about people's motivations. Gore knows who is on his side and who isn't, and he isn't afraid to be a face for the popular causes he believes in. However, politics is a matter of imprecision and guessing for him, because he doesn't perceive the fundamental political state of the nation like Clinton does. To Clinton the story of his times is replayed in every person he meets; Gore, being a J, is likely to miss the rich filling for the frosting. He sees the form, but he can't quite get the fundamental message. This is a trait I've perceived in many ENTJs, even on this forum. They try to rehearse processes of communication, and phrases, to try to get on the good side of as many people as possible. If the people they are with like them, no problem. If they are on the fence, the right phrase may swing them. If they are against the ENTJ... then it won't matter if the ENTJ gets the people on the fence, because the majority will rule in an argument. An INTJ won't bother with this stuff: they'll say "this is the way it is, and if you don't agree with me, you are stupid." Now they might not say it aloud, but they will adhere to this principle and not bend over backward to sway the middle view in a pinch, preferring to go down with their ship of principles if that's the way it must be. Gore didn't say, "We should count the votes across Florida because it's the principled thing to do". No, instead he tried to stack the deck, and look what happened. Had he tried to count the votes across Florida, Bush might never have become president.
Hillary an ESTP? As if, she's an ENTJ. SOLID ENTJ.
As for Putin, yes, he is psychotic. ESxx, to be precise. Compare him to Jung's description of the Extrovered Sensor type. Yes, I'm afraid you have a "nut", if you pardon the expression, at the helm of your nation. If you pay attention, you'll find that the relations between the United States and his administration these days follow the relation pattern for ESxx with any extroverted sensory type. (consider Bush is an ESTP) This is the proxy relation: the one acts as a proxy for the other. ...Actually, I'll get back to you on this one... but think on it. The answers may surprise both of us.
But as for Putin's behavior as an ESxx, a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media. A feeling person would be conscious of the effects of these efforts on people's emotional states. He doesn't seem to care. Too, he appears to be a genius: nothing is stopping him from carrying out his "reforms" in Russia. Resistance exists, that we in other nations can clearly deduce. However, it finds itself unable to effectively organize itself. Given that the resistance must consist of both feeling and thinking people, it must be a fundamental characteristic of Putin that allows him evade their efforts to trap him or discredit him. Seeing the world in terms of archetypal constructs, as opposed to symbols or forms, would allow him to percieve anything that might be perceived by anybody as a "silver bullet" to his rule well before it could be recognized for what it could be and aimed at him. It will undoubtably be a person with corresponding powers--probably an intuitive genius--who is the face of Putin's downfall.
I suspect that Putin's ascent reflects the existence of unreasonable demands on Russia to adapt to Western culture without the according respect by the West for its own. Consider the rise of Saddam Hussein in Iraq, and ****** in Germany, under similar circumstances. The rise of Putin's antithesis will correspond to a change of behavior by the West.
I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton,and
. That makes sense, but I have problem seeing him as ISFp or ESFj in his overall behavior.
My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
Intuitive subtype ENTJs have a tendency to appear cold hearted.I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton,
My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
If any thing I'd say logical subtype is more cold (sensing>feeling). And I would agree that Hillary seems ENTJ to me.
tcaudillg, your criteria of socionic types of politicians are non-socionic, but rather stereotypical (NT are good, SF are bad, etc.) and, frankly speaking, sometimes illogical. For example you write:
What about Joseph Stalin or Harry Sergueyevich Truman? They were both T, and even more, TJ.a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media
The way you describe Russia seems strange, very far from what we Russians see here. Thanks God you did not write about white bears walking down Russian streets(in fact many of American movies show Russia in such a way that Russians do not recognize themselves - who in the world are those bastards who write movie scripts?). If you want to discuss Russian policy, let's open a different topic in a non-socionic section of this forum.
www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.
I'd love to discuss Russian policy. It bewilders us in the West to no end. Please open a thread yourself to state your view. I'm not sure on what context to open one myself, because I don't understand Russia.tcaudillg, your criteria of socionic types of politicians are non-socionic, but rather stereotypical (NT are good, SF are bad, etc.) and, frankly speaking, sometimes illogical. For example you write:
What about Joseph Stalin or Harry Sergueyevich Truman? They were both T, and even more, TJ.a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media
The way you describe Russia seems strange, very far from what we Russians see here. Thanks God you did not write about white bears walking down Russian streets
Ah, Stalin... very undifferentiated. Very, very much so. Would a TJ think so frankly about killing people? I read what he said and I am really surprised and horrified at the same time.... I'd call him an "Overlord" to whom only the superego block was differentiated, determined to be top dog. Not a TJ.
SF bad? Not at all. NT good? No better than SF. Clinton? My fav politician. Harry Truman? A good one by my standards. (although he seems ISTP to me)
I think that your main problem is perceiving of your cultural patterns as they are something "natural", and all thing that different from these patterns you're defining as a "madness".
I think this is a common type of thinking for ISTJ's. Stalin also defined all the peaple whose resisted to the Soviet state as "nuts". So, how a logical type can care of them? He can try to "cure" them by "labour therapy" in Gulag, or if this way dosn't work, he can simply kill them. (By the way, the second method is more logical becose of it's easiness and cheapness).
May be your difficults in identification of Stalin type could be explained by the similarity of your thinking :wink: ?
I would advise to you, for better understanding of Putin politics, to understand first the American politics in Iraq and Afganistan. And what about Vietnam? I surmise, may be Veitnam peaple were not sufficient democratical, so they were nuts, so it was not another choice for American solders expect of humanistic killing them? Or may be these solders were nuts? And if them realy were nuts, so why there so many nuts in so democratical and civil state like USA? :8*
Stop thinking about youself as though you're a great saints in guard of "universal values" whose hiting the BAD BOY's hads!
A real life and a real politics are little more complexy then black and white vision of stupid narrative in cheap hollywood western!
ENTp
gore is without a doubt entj. it's not even debatable.
i agree i think clinton is esfj.I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton,
My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
No, Clinton is not an S-type. I would say ENFj.i agree i think clinton is esfj.I think I can see your reasoning about Bill Clinton,
My reason for thinking that Hillary is ISTj rather than ESTp is that she's been described as very cold on a personal level, even with her daughter. She's not playful.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
This is not a thread about Clinton, but it doesn't matter -- I will start one about possible INTjs.
Why do you say Clinton is not a sensor?
Re: INTj political leaders
Angela Merkel, German Chancellor - not so sure but I think INTj is very likely.
Angela Merkel, doesn't seem INTj to me, or at least for sure not the intuitive subtype. She seems a very practical, confident, down-to-earth person, not a dreamer. (i've only seen her briefly on tv, it's true).
Isn't there a way, by any, chance she's ESTp?
Maybe what you saw was more the way of presenting the thought process (that is
She could be
that's also my opinion.
have you gotten around to seeing An Inconvenient Truth? watch that, then tell me he isn't entj. his demeanor, speech patterns, and even appearance are starkly entj. he is definitely not intj.No fucking way. He's INTj. ENTjs aren't near as awkward he can tend to be, nor as reserved in a seemingly aloof way as he so often appears.
lol
How about Prince Charles- INTJ, Princess Di- ESFJ?
Why do you think they were duals? His present wife may be his dual, but not Diana.
Are you saying that he's not INTJ, or she's not ESFJ?Why do you think they were duals? His present wife may be his dual, but not Diana.
I have typed Truman as ISTP too. As to Russia, why bother, they are not less illogical than the rest of the world. Just read the news.I'd love to discuss Russian policy. It bewilders us in the West to no end. Please open a thread yourself to state your view. I'm not sure on what context to open one myself, because I don't understand Russia.tcaudillg, your criteria of socionic types of politicians are non-socionic, but rather stereotypical (NT are good, SF are bad, etc.) and, frankly speaking, sometimes illogical. For example you write:
What about Joseph Stalin or Harry Sergueyevich Truman? They were both T, and even more, TJ.a logical person wouldn't try to roll-back democratic reforms, or jail political opponents, or seize control, bit-by-bit, of the media
The way you describe Russia seems strange, very far from what we Russians see here. Thanks God you did not write about white bears walking down Russian streets
Ah, Stalin... very undifferentiated. Very, very much so. Would a TJ think so frankly about killing people? I read what he said and I am really surprised and horrified at the same time.... I'd call him an "Overlord" to whom only the superego block was differentiated, determined to be top dog. Not a TJ.
SF bad? Not at all. NT good? No better than SF. Clinton? My fav politician. Harry Truman? A good one by my standards. (although he seems ISTP to me)
Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.
What I primarily meant is that their relationship did not seem to be of duality.Are you saying that he's not INTJ, or she's not ESFJ?Why do you think they were duals? His present wife may be his dual, but not Diana.
I think INTj is a good typing for Charles. I also think that Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall, his present wife, can be seen as ESFj and their relationship fits duality.
In the case of the late Princess Diana, I don't know but perhaps ISFp.
In real time videos (like the ones where she has a speech teacher), she was very timid and shy. She was highly self-conscious.
Agreed. Diana was very shy, they did a documentary on that, where they analyzed specifically her attidude in dressing. She wasn't confident, for examle to wear something more extravagant, than her usual thing, although she could afford it (she was a princess, no?). She was a person very modest and simple.
I'm guessing INFj for Diana.
Update - -
Dmitri Lytov has included Prince Charles as INFp and Diana as ENTj in his site.
Honestly I can't see a case for either.
me neither.
Expat, can you link that site of Dmitri Lytov? I can't find it.
Dmitry's site is working again:
http://www.socioniko.net
After debating about it for quite a while I finally have settled on LSI for Putin, not LII. I believe this is the simplest possible explanation, and I don't believe Putin is psychotic. My description of him and reasons are given here:
http://www.socionics.us/celebrities/lsi.shtml
I have no problem with Putin as LSI, but Theodore Roosevelt?
What were your ideas about Roosevelt?
Well, he clearly valued
I can't make the full case here. I think he was too much of a risk-taker to be a classic ISTj.
The types that come to my mind are ESTp and ENTj. But he seemed to much of an attention-seeker to be the latter and too focused on principles to be the former. And
I think he was more likely an ENTj who worried too much about his
Perhaps the ISTj impression is due to his having introduced regulation, trust-busting, conservation etc. I think those have to be seen in the context of the economics of the the time.
A lot of posters in this thread aren't even on the forums anymore. But anyway... LII are not very easy to recognize and probably aren't going to be politicians very often. Al Gore seemed both Alpha and Gamma. My EIE-Fe dad said how unemotional he was, and how it seemed like he could never care about anyone, and that goes with Ti-base far more than LIE. LIE-Ni are warm rather than cold and uncaring, even if they try to make themselves seem that way. I don't know much about LIE-Te, but they don't seem very cold and uncaring either. Al Gore does kind of V.I. and A.I. like Bill O'Reilly who is an LIE-Ni (my dad loves him, my dad likes LIE-Ni), but if you look at how they are with people, they're pretty different. Al Gore doesn't have that Gamma skepticism at all, and he seems much more psychologically neutral compared to Bill O'Reilly.
Al Gore is totally objective or focused on things and concepts, far more than he cares about people and morality... LIE-Ni are the opposite.
Hillary Clinton is often seen as a Te-base, but I see her as LSI-Ti... she was more of a feminist than LIE tend to be, although Tim Kaine was an ESI-Fi. Honestly, I can't see an LIE being so dependent on their spouse for just about everything like Hillary was on Bill. Moral support yes, but things on policy and need for status? Hell no.
Not sure why anyone would type Putin as an intuitive. I realize many LSI-Ti look kind of puny, that they don't have the strong physical presence that their LSI-Se sisters do, but still... Putin is often described as reckless, charming, manipulative, cunning, power-hungry, having no empathy, I really wish I knew why so many people type him as LII other than that he may look like one due to being LSI-Ti. If LII are entrusted with an office or a position of power something, they're responsible with it to people under them; much less so for LSI. There are still huge differences between LSI-Ti and LII-Ti.
I wish I were an LIE-Ni; too bad I don't have that kind of energy... they and the ILE-Ti are the most energetic types in the socion, able to just pack up and go on a whim. LIE-Ni are super energizing for me, without pissing me off like EIE do. EIE's Fe and their need to do everything based on emotion and be above everyone else can get super annoying, especially from the intuitive subtype; LIE-Ni are more rational in their actions and inactions. LIE-Te are idiots with their favoring of regulations and all that shit.
Last edited by Disturbed; 09-07-2022 at 11:06 PM.
I'm sorry, but I'm psychologically disturbed.
For the USA: John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Woodrow Wilson.
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