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Guild chat demonstrating cynicism versus idealism. True story.
Cynicism
Idealism
Both
Gul: LOVE FOREVER LOVE IS FREE
Gul: LET'S TURN TOGETHER YOU AND ME
Darlia: love usually costs me 90 per 30 mins.
Guild chat demonstrating cynicism versus idealism. True story.
Cynical in thought, idealistic in action.
I don't know upon thinking more on this I really like expressing cynicism in a sort of sarcastic/witty sense because it helps relieve certain feelings of "crushed idealism" as cynicism is supposedly just that. However I'd rather choose to live by ideals, than live by cynicism. I think being an adult rather than being a child etc.... all that stuff is easily recouncilable if you are willing to accept life as not always matching up to your inner idealism. Coming of Age in part, is realizing and accepting this.
So I assume you don't think before you act?Originally Posted by labcoat
Cynicism is realism.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
oh wow, I used to think this way in my 20s. Yeah I really came of age. and now I'm revisiting that whole thing. midlife sucks.
IEI-Fe 4w3
yeah. midlife is the real realism, cynicism, skepticism, whatever you want to call it. it burns. bad.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Thats the fascinating thing, its like the business cycle with a steady cycle of ups and downs... at every turn reality drop kicks your idealism and you have to stand back up, once you get up you feel more empowered, but then you get drop kicked again.
On the large scale the first big drop kick is adolesence (aka childhood to adult)
The second big drop kick is early adult life as it leads into midlife
The last drop kick is in your transition from midlife to being elderly
Most people deal well with the first
the second is harder
the last is hardest
if you can make it to old age and not be a completely grumpy cynical old person, you've done well, if not I'd suggest you find a group of kids to shake your fist at annoyingly.
In a way... but cynicism it seems to me to be more focused on the negative attributes of reality that run in opposition to idealistic notions.
Reality consists of positive attributes that run in harmony to idealistic notions also.
So really cynicism is only a subset of reality, plus reality isn't a fixed thing, people have wills and participate in reality... so reality is what you choose to make it and how you choose to affect the world around you.
yes...this could be a pretty good description. the things that get you over your early adult crisis are the same things that are shown to be the house of cards in mid life. that's why it's so hard, since early on you think you finally got it all figured out and you go forward bravely and confidently in this knowledge, expending energy and heightening expectation. then it all comes down, shown clearly for what it really is.
that's when you get on your knees and start praying, since you have to gather strength again and look everywhere to find it. people start doing weird things in mid life, like i went crazy with work goals thinking if i just gave it this much or that much more effort and creativity that i would get to live the dream i laid out for myself in my 20's.
anyway it's kind of interesting that we have two age levels going at the forum, like late adolescents/early adults then some mid life people. perhaps we look for some of our answers here. but yeah, both age groups in the middle of a lifecycle crisis.
the thing that resolves your crisis though is the thing that drives our crisis in mid life....so i don't want to ruin the resolution of your crisis..
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
By definition the moment one starts acting one stops thinking. It is at the turning point that cynicism is abandoned for idealism. It is at that point that one abandons negative thoughst as to how complicated the situation is when seen in it's full complexity (all answers are wrong, nothing is worth doing; I can only shoot ideas down not identify the right one) and embraces the certainty gained from establishing certain factors as absolute on a "good enough for now" basis such that a positive prospect is possible.So I assume you don't think before you act?
None of this excludes thinking before acting. It is actually when people think in a disguisedly "active" way when they "think" idealistically. By expressing themselves, they are not true to the subject matter - not saying what they really believe, but trying to influence the world with their words, which is a form of action.
None of this is subjectively unique to me. Cynicism and thought on one hand and idealism and action on the other are intrinsically linked.
I'm kind of the opposite, but that's to be expected by an EJ. The moment I decide to act, I choose one of the many opportunities that the environment has to offer, thus binding myself to one particular activity that I need to carry to its end.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Yes. I think I left something out of the story.
There is actually a continuum that extends further into the direction of idealism.
First a person is cynical, then he accepts his own certainty and becomes idealistic. Then considerations of time and resource availability limit the extent to which ideals can be applied to practice, so the person resorts to... pragmatism. And that's where you come in.
and then after living with reality for awhile, the whole cycle starts all over again.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Hmm yes, the question is which links are we missing. What kind of traumatic experience makes a person swing back to cynicism? An interesting question, that.
I'm not convinced it's anything more than middle-age for some people. Nothing traumatic has happened to me and yet I find myself cynical and verging on insisting on my idealism once again. It's like I want to give it another go. That somehow I gave up too soon the first time. Nothing traumatic, depending on how you define that. Nothing more traumatic than living an easy life (maybe that can be traumatic enough). For some, there might be real trauma. Maybe if there's not real trauma, people create their own.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Probing the puzzling workings of 'depressive realism'
Psychologists have thought for decades that depressed people tend to distort the facts and view their lives more negatively than do nondepressed people. Yet, psychological studies have consistently revealed a peculiar exception to that pattern: Depressed people, studies indicated, judge their control of events more accurately than do nondepressed people in a phenomenon that came to be known as "depressive realism."
Now two new studies published in February's Journal of Experimental Psychology: General (Vol. 134, No. 1) are starting to clear up the mystery. By refining an aspect of an experimental task that involved control over a light bulb, researchers uncovered a new twist--that nondepressed people may overestimate their control because they take more aspects of a situation into account in judging their control. The findings may help clinicians to refine therapies for depression.
interesting, Sub!
IEI-Fe 4w3
raw hope, ideals, rose-colored glasses, for some people, that's all they have. Don't take it away from them. It would be better for them to wake up to reality and be realistic, probably yes. But that in of itself is unrealistic, to expect them of that. If somebody was just emotionally or sexually abused I wouldn't give them a 'rude wake-up call', necessarily. In the roughest of times, hope is nice.
yeah. I think I know an E7 who's like this. Just doesn't want to face the negative. Everything is rosy. It's frustrating in a way. But in another way it makes me jealous. Why can't I have that crutch??!!I want a never-ending source of hope and optimism!
IEI-Fe 4w3
I prefer to focus on the negative because that's how problems actually get solved. There's also an important reason why like in Buddhism, a lot of talk is about negativity and emptiness and meaningless.
Logos is quite correct that Cynicism and Negativism are not the same thing! A person could have the view that Cynicism is a positive approach...and further, being negative or positive in attitude need not match Negativism or Positivism.
It is desire that makes people unhappy. I just came back from toilet. I was sitting there on a toilet seat, in agony, having really hard times, and I was thinking to myself "this really is good, all this pain and such, I'm alive, I can feel it now, I'm so freaking alive that it hurts, my stomach hurts, it really does, I'm gonna die, oh it is sweet pain of mine, I don't want it to stop, never". It's an adventure, A real life experience which induces growth of character. Now, after all of this I'm back in front of my computer and I kinda love you more than before. To live is to die.
thank you for this. it just means so much.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
=/. I don't get it. If you're constipated just eat more fiber? lol.It is desire that makes people unhappy. I just came back from toilet. I was sitting there on a toilet seat, in agony, having really hard times, and I was thinking to myself "this really is good, all this pain and such, I'm alive, I can feel it now, I'm so freaking alive that it hurts, my stomach hurts, it really does, I'm gonna die, oh it is sweet pain of mine, I don't want it to stop, never". It's an adventure, A real life experience which induces growth of character. Now, after all of this I'm back in front of my computer and I kinda love you more than before. To live is to die.
I think the missing link is fatalism. The person set out doing something with pragmatics in mind, but has already been met with destructive criticism or failing results to the point of knowing that even the positive intent of the action isnt' being met. But the person goes on, dogmatically, because it's the only way to keep going. Faith in the past judgments that conceived the plan is the only thing motivating the person. Maybe, just maybe, the person thinks, something was overlooked and the initial judgment was right after all...I'm not convinced it's anything more than middle-age for some people. Nothing traumatic has happened to me and yet I find myself cynical and verging on insisting on my idealism once again. It's like I want to give it another go. That somehow I gave up too soon the first time. Nothing traumatic, depending on how you define that. Nothing more traumatic than living an easy life (maybe that can be traumatic enough). For some, there might be real trauma. Maybe if there's not real trauma, people create their own.Hmm yes, the question is which links are we missing. What kind of traumatic experience makes a person swing back to cynicism? An interesting question, that.
Last edited by krieger; 10-26-2009 at 12:14 AM.
You're just jealous because I've overthrown you from your EMO forum pedestal. Now I am the forum's EMO NO1. q:
I think thats the interesting part, so many times the issues and problems individuals face are interconnected to other parts in their life and share a common theme, everytime they pop up again you think "Not this again"... but everytime you overcome them you feel even better than the last time you overcame them. I find it meaningful; struggle is what makes a person's victories significant and meaningful, if you earn something without effort it means nothing, if you had to go through alot to get it - it means alot. The push and pull of the conflicts in a person's life gives them that constant struggle for something greater, and on a greater scale it seems to be everyone in society is pursuing something, and if all these things/pursuits somehow interlink it would seem everyone is guided towards some greater coalesence of meaning. Now returning to reality... I think all a person can do is enjoy life while its good and handle problems as they are dealt to you to live another day in hopes of future resolutions/good times, what you can't do is get down on yourself when life deals you a bad hand, just deal with the situation instead of try to wish it away -- thats "immature", hope imo is not "immature".
Lol and for the record I am not addressing anyone in specific here; just speaking in generic terms.
I was mainly kidding, I was trying to be clever...
I think I understood what you meant orginally, but just decided to be annoying.
What I'd be interested is how the "self fulfilling prophecy" plays into this....
I mean the higher the standard you place for yourself the higher the probability of failure
The lower the standard you place for yourself the higher the probability of success
In theory a person could just evaluate themselves to extremely low standards to always be successful... the funny thing is they really aren't being "truely successful" in that they aren't obtaining the potential they could if they just occasionally put themselves up to a bigger challenge and failed a little.
In other words I think possibly the depressed people where so good at evaluating their capabilities because they have lower standards for themselves, and thus they can be assured of their capability to suck.
Sure in the realm of problem solving, be extremely negative helps... thats why engineers do the whole "If it can go wrong - it WILL" thing.
In the realm of psychological health, its not so much about negative or positive... but the interrelationship between the two... either extreme imho is unhealthy.
Hope I think has its uses and misuses... sometimes people use it as a defense mechanism and sometimes it works to help you. Consider a person falls off a cliff... If a person says "I hope I'll be alright" and does nothing thats a problem -- they could end up ignoring some critical oppurtunity that could have saved their life because they essentially gave up.... If a person says "I believe theres a way to solve this problem" and does something thats good -- they could end up finding some way to save their life. Both are considered to be expressions of hope. It would seem by this thought experiment that hope is only useful when it provides a sort of confidence in action and not when it leads you to fanciful/unrealistic/magical thinking. If people didn't have hope in action, then people would essentially give up the moment they encountered the smallest adversity in life... it seems evolutionarily favourable.
Sure but this seems like semantics, I usually view cynicism as being negative.... of course a "positive" cynical attitude would be positive for a person, because it is by definition.
lol. What you typed made no sense though. It wasn't emo as much as it was false.You're just jealous because I've overthrown you from your EMO forum pedestal. Now I am the forum's EMO NO1. q:
Well I would have thought that if you consider cynicism to be the best approach, you could still consider yourself to be a positive person - such a person may see an idealist as prone to misrepresenting the way things are or will be. But then again, a person who considers cynicism to be the most approach may consider themselves a negative person, or a neutral person, or they may not even have a position on what attitude they have. You can be a cynic without having those connotations attached to it.
Everybody misrepresents reality to fit their own goals and ideals. Helping things means taking the entire nature into account. So few people do this, and as such they aren't the true good guys.
If you really want accurate information, it sounds boring and almost un-emotional. It's rather counter-intuitive in a way, actual reality. They know people don't like that (all to keep you glued in front of a computer monitor, tv screen etc. to get you to consume), so they have divisive perceptions. The truth is reality is very complex and hard to understand all the ingredients. It's very complicated to take in, each story.
I like the tv show Democracy Now. The information is hard to understand, just what is going on. It's presented in a way just very matter-of-factly and objectively, almost non-humanely. But that is what real reality is. Then you realize how little you DO know, and it makes you want to study even more to get a better handle on the exact situation so you can REALLY help. It's quite amazing.
I don't know.... I still feel like your playing semantics. To me cynicism by its usage is considered to have negative value attached.
I mean no one is stopping you from looking at the idea of cynicism removed from this negative value.... but to me then its not obvious by what you mean and its not the way I use the word.
Also worthy of mentioning is that originally the cynics were actually a philosophical revolutionary moment by a group of greeks that believed you must ignore convention to come closer to truth.... interesting enough the semantics of this idea changed and recently it has come to mean something completely different.
K but the fascinating thing is that, that misrepresentation... in and of itself is reality. People's inner ideals, goals, desire ... whatever; are all part of reality. You have them, the person next to you has them.... and they really exist but they exist as something which are not manifested in reality in an actualized way, but rather a potential.
I think the idea of having these are only unhealthy in so far as they cloud your judgement and conception of the real world that exists outside yourself. I mean one of the worst cases of this imo is the "entitlement" thing... people feeling they are entitled to everything they desire.
Lol you sound like a conspiracy nut, but there is some truth in what you say. The thing is that all con artists basically use this technique and women do it to. They find some deep idealistic over-the-top desire you have and they exploit it. They attempt to pretend like they have the key to your dream in their possession and they will trade it to you for a favor in return. The genius of it, is that there is always some loophole.
The most basic idea of this is with attractive women, guy will do anything for an attractive woman because they believe that doing nice things for them will get them sex. Sex is that desire that they exploit, they withhold it to gain the upper hand. The thing is no explicit deal is ever made so what always end up happening is the guy runs around doing all this stuff for no reason and is a fool.
Con artists do this with say foreigners, they talk about a new land of opportunity and such, and when people arrive they exploit the foreigners because they are in unfamiliar territory and don't know how to help themselves, plus the foreigners usually discover live isn't the dream they expected.
Religious con artists do this with cults.... all cons are about exploiting this basic desire, and its not just the guy trying to sell stuff out of his car trunk... the government, businesses, and professional established people do this stuff also. Its a basic principle of human manipulation; sadly enough. But I mean, its not like this is ALL there is to reality.
Last edited by male; 10-26-2009 at 03:19 PM.
idealsim: ENT ESF IST INF
cynicism: INT ISF EST ENF
Interquadra Party
alpha - reasoning about their arrival
beta - deciding whether to stay
gamma - deciding whether to leave
delta - reasoning about their departure
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