INTjs and social conventions/practices

[Ms. Kensington]

ions welcomed.

Something I'm always thinking about as an INTj is the importance of social institution. Unlike an ENTp, the INTj uses Ne creatively, and Ne is somewhat dependent on the outside world (here meaning, something that is not internal to her own mind or perceived as such). So the INTj thinks there may be some value in understanding social convention as a facet of this world. (please help me keep this topic as simple as possible, and assume these things with me).

How do you, an INTj, archive away information about societal practice?

Others: how do you feel your INTj friend does this?

What I am trying to express is the tension I feel as an INTj with strong pulls to abstract truths and dependence on extraverted factors. One cannot block out one aspect of her psychology because it is not efficient or readily made sense of..

[tcaudilllg]

ions welcomed.

Something I'm always thinking about as an INTj is the importance of social institution. Unlike an ENTp, the INTj uses Ne creatively, and Ne is somewhat dependent on the outside world (here meaning, something that is not internal to her own mind or perceived as such). So the INTj thinks there may be some value in understanding social convention as a facet of this world. (please help me keep this topic as simple as possible, and assume these things with me).

How do you, an INTj, archive away information about societal practice?

Others: how do you feel your INTj friend does this?

What I am trying to express is the tension I feel as an INTj with strong pulls to abstract truths and dependence on extraverted factors. One cannot block out one aspect of her psychology because it is not efficient or readily made sense of..

...Sorry but I can't claim to give a damn about social convention. But out of respect I'll say nothing more. (except that it is contrived and outdated, if ever it was necessary at all)

[mimisor]

hmm..well that's a tough one, one thing is for sure that even if I am sometimes oblivious to social convention, I don't like to be the "black sheep". I am not doing it in a concious manner( is my unconcious function) to be different or from idyosincratic motives, like the INTps do (oops, I guess, correct me if I'm wrong, and if so it would be because Fe is the PoLR of INTps, the weakest concious function)
for an INTj it just happens unconciously and then of course I feel weird if I am constrained to follow those social norms, for the simple fact that I am required to use my weak function Fe and of course one would feel happier when he/she is put in conditions that require the use of the ego block (the 2 best developed functions), in my case + . For example this forum, it makes me happy because it requires heavy use of the two functions I stated

[UDP]

I have been thiniking about this a lot lately - why there are things like social norms and conventions.

Social things as I observed them are....... kind of like widgets, or extensions for firefox, or whatever. They can make things go more smoothly, and help give you an edge in certain situations. And they can be practised.

No doubt there are things that I refuse to compromise on. But... I don' tknow, it helps me if I can see a logical reasoning, or practical purpose to what the convention is. I am in herently antisocial, though, and rather like it that way.... but I refuse to limit myself to my "preferences". I want to have the ability to do whatever it is I may need or want, although I often choose not to do something. ---- This paragraph doesn't seem to say much, though, so... hmm......


I think for any person, it is important to understand how others think, and why. (this reminds me of a topic I was going to start about using someone as a sheild in conversational situations, or playing off of that person, cloaking, etc). Also.....

being able to apply universal logic to other peopls actions helps me understand them better. Once you see the patterns in people, in ALL humans...... then it really isn't so bad, in my experience.

(still, I feel like I'm not answering your question very well. Perhaps I'll try again, or you can restate it)


Social convention, just like any other stand point or situation, can be manipuated.

[Creepy-]

ions welcomed.

Something I'm always thinking about as an INTj is the importance of social institution. Unlike an ENTp, the INTj uses Ne creatively, and Ne is somewhat dependent on the outside world (here meaning, something that is not internal to her own mind or perceived as such). So the INTj thinks there may be some value in understanding social convention as a facet of this world. (please help me keep this topic as simple as possible, and assume these things with me).

How do you, an INTj, archive away information about societal practice?

Others: how do you feel your INTj friend does this?

What I am trying to express is the tension I feel as an INTj with strong pulls to abstract truths and dependence on extraverted factors. One cannot block out one aspect of her psychology because it is not efficient or readily made sense of..

...Sorry but I can't claim to give a damn about social convention. But out of respect I'll say nothing more. (except that it is contrived and outdated, if ever it was necessary at all)

maybe you don't give a damn but nevertheless you must deal with it. And HOW do you? Example: one's feelings respond to outside stimuli. maybe an INTj might be one type to say they dont give a damn about feelings as well. Nevertheless you must deal. and HOW?

hahah. also, my post is related to "human nature." because human nature can be thought of as a truth

[Ms. Kensington]

guest was me.

[tcaudilllg]

]
maybe you don't give a damn but nevertheless you must deal with it. And HOW do you? Example: one's feelings respond to outside stimuli. maybe an INTj might be one type to say they dont give a damn about feelings as well. Nevertheless you must deal. and HOW?

Follow intuition.

[mike_INTJ]

ions welcomed.

Something I'm always thinking about as an INTj is the importance of social institution. Unlike an ENTp, the INTj uses Ne creatively, and Ne is somewhat dependent on the outside world (here meaning, something that is not internal to her own mind or perceived as such). So the INTj thinks there may be some value in understanding social convention as a facet of this world. (please help me keep this topic as simple as possible, and assume these things with me).

How do you, an INTj, archive away information about societal practice?

Others: how do you feel your INTj friend does this?

What I am trying to express is the tension I feel as an INTj with strong pulls to abstract truths and dependence on extraverted factors. One cannot block out one aspect of her psychology because it is not efficient or readily made sense of..

tough to answer, partly because i don't understand the question.

but i think your asking how i think in social terms, in what way do i interact?

i don't. not on a general chit-chat level. i don't like pedantic, superficial talk. i like learning new things, even if they are stupid cleaning tricks, it's something less then the usual hum-drum - how are you? how was your weekend - good? etc, etc.

primarily i find it a waste of my time, but you have to do it a little bit, or your cast off like a shadow in the darkness. but you have to do it a little bit to find your soulmate.

in general i find most people are superficial. they don't really care how you feel, so i tell them fine. you tell them anything else and they don't have a prepared answer for you. however they are waiting to hear the same question repeated back to them, as this is their introduction to tell you about their wonderfullly boring weekend. i never give them this chance, i walk away before it can happen, and i don't ask. i can see it coming.

any other social thing would be related to people asking for favors. in which the pattern i get is - a compliment, then a favor. usually they won't repay the favor, but they are ready for another one, once they know they can get something out of you. when you say no, they tell you your mean or something like that.

i'm training a new partner to be more independant. she's a flirty type - get's what she wants because of a hollow compliment. people seem to feed on these compliments - i don't need them. if i know i'm doing something well, having a brainless tell me i'm doing well isn't going to impress me. but anyway, i'll help a few times, but now i just say no - do it yourself you brain dead twit (parts edited out in real life).

once you know the pattern you can see the trap they lure you into. i find it's best for my energy to stay out direct line of sight.

[mike_INTJ]

guest was me. -- maybe you don't give a damn but nevertheless you must deal with it. And HOW do you? Example: one's feelings respond to outside stimuli. maybe an INTj might be one type to say they dont give a damn about feelings as well. Nevertheless you must deal. and HOW?

hahah. also, my post is related to "human nature." because human nature can be thought of as a truth

it depends on where you are. if your in a sales dept, it's probably not for you. if you sell cars, forget about it. in school you have school subjects, easier, or it should be. i've had no problems with engineers, they listen to almost anything...

i tell them point blank that i don't care about their feelings. usually i can get away with it in a jokingly manner, it's a certain look. you being a girl, it might be harder, as your expected to have empathy, compassion, and so forth.

i can keep up a basic conversation as long as i'm not the starter of the conversation. i may bring up the weather, but will almost always forcast it in the most accurately negative form possible. i think i simply like scaring people

for me, you have to be very specific when you ask about something. otherwise i'll answer your question. but i won't elaborate on it. if they are really interested, they will press on, otherwise they were filling up loose gaps of silence. i work best in question and answer methods - where were your born? how old? any brothers or sisters? etc, etc, etc -

to date, i've been working at a place for 2 years - and no one has really asked about me in an certain way. just the generic questions. they don't know about the other hobbies or skills. people are only interested in themselves.

[UDP]

]
maybe you don't give a damn but nevertheless you must deal with it. And HOW do you? Example: one's feelings respond to outside stimuli. maybe an INTj might be one type to say they dont give a damn about feelings as well. Nevertheless you must deal. and HOW?

Follow intuition.

I agree with t on this.......

Because, for me, I've been following my intuition more lately, and it's been paying off bigtime.

[Creepy-ENTp M]

Seems like kind of vague term, so my comment may not be germaine to your topic. Seems like most "social convention" is about building a rapport to exchange some information. So idle chit seems to be the oil to get past "styles of communication?" before the really important stuff gets passed on. It seems like an ENTp will think out loud so how they get to the issue they want to discuss is pretty well understood by the other party, it's almost a combination sales job and information exchange. INTj 's don't seem to show any cards in their thinking until they are ready to exchange information in a kind of "closed", no room for discussion manner. I don't think that's the intent, but when someone just listens, says nothing, processes, and spits out an answer or comment, it's perceived that way. It's not "wrong" or anything, it just leaves other people wondering to themselves, "How did they get there?". If it's something fairly obvious, no problems. An answer or comment that takes some more complex path to find, well other can get lost. (Lots of answer for a question I'm not sure I understood.)

[Kirana]

k, social convention. by that i take it you mean those unwritten social rules. mostly i'm oblivious to them. i was a teenager before i realised that everyone seemed to have picked them up growing up and i seem to have totally missed it. then i decided i didn't care - since it's superficial and ungenuine, and i despise things that are superficial and ungenuine. or at the very least, consider it a waste of my energy and effort.

however, maturing i realise i am very much a minority, and that these trivialities seem awfully important to other people. one can be fair to people and they don't appreciate it, but if you ignore their conventions they hold grudges for a very long time. and i also realised that it's hard to get them to do what i want if they are not positively disposed towards me. so, with great reluctance, i am trying to learn it. i can't seem to 'pick it up' - i tried. doesn't quite work. i have to mean it, and i can't seem to do things that i know are fake. so i took a different tack. i'm now trying to systematically learn social convention, specifically to use as a mask when i need it. this is working better, although i'm still mostly clueless about many social conventions.

was that the sort of sharing you wanted?

[niveK]

Going with Kirana's definition of social convention, I think much of it's reason to exist is to avoid having to think about how to communicate and understand many of the niceties that we expect from others to tell us how we're fitting into society. It's not necessarily that people don't want to think, it's just that people would rather save their efforts and communicate by the "language" of social convention.

The combination of the Ti and Ne makes for a person that considers everything, no matter how much others take it for granted. I suppose this is why the INTj type gets the rap of being "a scientist". Of course, I by no means suggest they're better at it, just that the type fits our stereotypical ideas of the scientist type. Other types may have their own issues with social conventions, but this thread is about the INTj and social conventions.

Actually, I'd say much of our social interaction depends on stereotypes and social convention. They act as a system of heuristics so people can move through the social system without great effort. This is why people place such a high emphasis on a system that seems so meaningless. People not playing to the system are sending confusing messages and disrupting the system.

My own approach to the social conventions: I take a semi-formal approach in business dealings. With individuals that I may not have to have future dealings with, I use a hefty dose of humor. With friends, I have the opportunity to "train" them to understand my own methods of communicating the expected niceties. Much of the time, I imitate what I've seen from observing various social interactions. Where I'm not so sure, I just respond in a more "natural" manner, expecting that if people get confused, I can explain myself if necessary to whatever I'm achieving with the interaction.

[science as magic]

i would say intjs try not to get in anyone's face about their views if doing so will have a negative impact on their interaction with others

[mimisor]

i would say intjs try not to get in anyone's face about their views if doing so will have a negative impact on their interaction with others

that's basically what I explained, that intjs don't try to be different in opinions or behaviour than others, like intps do, (I assume),but it happens without realizing it, unconciously, without the intention and then I wonder "what have I done" "what the hell, why i am the only one that thinks like this or has a different way to see things" "what, was I supposed to say hello to those people?" "no, I didn't mean to be rude and impolite and no I don't despise you or think you don't deserve my attention and no i don't think i am superior to you or whatever, oh well it just didn't cross my mind in that precise moment to do that, next time I'll redouble my effort to remember to say hello to everybody I pass by, ok?"

in a word it's completely fucked up to be an intj if you wanted the truth.
and no I'm not saying so to whine and bitch at you i say it from an objective point of view. God bless you fellow intjs you'll need luck to get on in life and i thank God i'm lucky so far.

for the reasons mentioned i agree that the idiosyncratic adjective belongs to INTps, they deserve it because they really try to be, maybe INTjs are too but we don't try nor w e enjoy it =D

[UDP]

i would say intjs try not to get in anyone's face about their views if doing so will have a negative impact on their interaction with others

that's basically what I explained, that intjs don't try to be different in opinions or behaviour than others, like intps do, (I assume),but it happens without realizing it, unconciously, without the intention and then I wonder "what have I done" "what the hell, why i am the only one that thinks like this or has a different way to see things" "what, was I supposed to say hello to those people?" "no, I didn't mean to be rude and impolite and no I don't despise you or think you don't deserve my attention and no i don't think i am superior to you or whatever, oh well it just didn't cross my mind in that precise moment to do that, next time I'll redouble my effort to remember to say hello to everybody I pass by, ok?"

I was reading your post, and agreeing with you. Until here, where you seem to get more 'negative' about things.

in a word it's completely fucked up to be an intj if you wanted the truth.
and no I'm not saying so to whine and bitch at you i say it from an objective point of view. God bless you fellow intjs you'll need luck to get on in life and i thank God i'm lucky so far.

for the reasons mentioned i agree that the idiosyncratic adjective belongs to INTps, they deserve it because they really try to be, maybe INTjs are too but we don't try nor w e enjoy it =D

I think "contrary" or contrast suites INTps better than INTjs. That's probably just based on my connotations of the words, perhaps. Or maybe "defiant" for INTps. I do agree, though, about INTj (or at least myself) not purposely trying to be different, seeking to be "unique". It just is that way.

And I don't think you have to "dislike" feeling different to be an INTj. I mean, no doubt I was that way for the longest time ( I bitched and moaned like all the rest about "alienation" and such things). But sooner or later you should kind of grow up from that, in my opinion.

[Ms. Kensington]

This is what my post was asking: if one thinks about social interaction as evidence for the truth that is human nature, how does an INTj come to terms personally with the fact that the terms in question, "truth" and "social evidence" seem to contradict each other?

[UDP]

It's entirely optional, of course.

[mike_INTJ]

This is what my post was asking: if one thinks about social interaction as evidence for the truth that is human nature, how does an INTj come to terms personally with the fact that the terms in question, "truth" and "social evidence" seem to contradict each other?

we stick out like a sore thumb. if everyone laughs at a joke told. smiles back when smiled too. blesses a sneeze. says hi with enthusiam. asks about your life, kids, pets, car, etc. and we don't - we stick out.

however observing them when they are alone, they sit like we do. like lumps in a chair. i have no idea what's in their minds though. i'm in another world, doing things more enjoyable. teaching myself skills to things i havn't learned about yet.

when the stimulus is removed the E's that i know of de-evolve into something else.

[UDP]

when the stimulus is removed the E's that i know of de-evolve into something else.

Yeah, I've noticed that quite a bit. Some, (big surprise), complain about boredom. Some just start talking about sex.

[mike_INTJ]

when the stimulus is removed the E's that i know of de-evolve into something else.

Yeah, I've noticed that quite a bit. Some, (big surprise), complain about boredom. Some just start talking about sex.

right now i'm trying to train one to be more independant. wooing doesn't work for me. she can sucker a lot of people to do her work - but not me. she's tried conversations, and failed. she just isn't that interesting to talk to.

[Cone]

I think I can say at least something about INTjs, since there are enough of you on the forum to gain substantial information. It seems to me that INTjs are always trying to "transcend" common thought, which is somewhat different than an INTp's "contrariness". I seriously have no idea why people think INTjs love logical perfection, because if anything, you guys constantly talk about vague intuition and "just knowing", thought that transcends any earthly bounds. Or at least you guys try to embrace UDP's concept of "living unlimited". From my viewpoint, it seems kind of strange and funny, as if you are all the biggest anti-positivists on the planet (which is in direct contrast to me.) Whereas INTps want to rid the world of assumption and hypocrisy, INTjs want to explore what's beyond or what could be.

[Rocky]

You mean ISTps, Cone.

[Cone]

In reference to INTps or INTjs?

[Rocky]

What you said about INTps.

[Cone]

Same for them, I guess.

[UDP]

I think I can say at least something about INTjs, since there are enough of you on the forum to gain substantial information. It seems to me that INTjs are always trying to "transcend" common thought, which is somewhat different than an INTp's "contrariness". I seriously have no idea why people think INTjs love logical perfection, because if anything, you guys constantly talk about vague intuition and "just knowing", thought that transcends any earthly bounds. Or at least you guys try to embrace UDP's concept of "living unlimited". From my viewpoint, it seems kind of strange and funny, as if you are all the biggest anti-positivists on the planet (which is in direct contrast to me.) Whereas INTps want to rid the world of assumption and hypocrisy, INTjs want to explore what's beyond or what could be.

What does that highlighted part mean?

[Cone]

That's means that you believe that some things cannot be explained.

[mimisor]

That's means that you believe that some things cannot be explained.

just to translate this in term of functions, that's basically, including what you've explained above, the difference of Ti and Te. INTps have an objective thought process, they have so that's why their interest is the facts, the positive world. INTjs have a little more "dizzy" image of the facts, because of the which focuses more on correlation, (all introverted functions are basically about correlation with past memories)
that is putting in order the thoughts, the facts gathered, rather than just grab them and make use of them at the moment. From here the title of "anti-positivists" that our wonderful Cone came up with. And Cone in the end both Te and Ti are functions of objective judgement, so I don't know if it's really apposite to say Ti is anti-positive, It's the same target, analyze of the objective world, but the means are different.

to sum up
is practical judgement
is more about correlation, which of course presuposes use of first

I was reading your post, and agreeing with you. Until here, where you seem to get more 'negative' about things.

Nah, I don't think it's negative, it's a fair statement. I'm always trying to give meaningful and general explanations to this forum, not based on subjectivity. I don't wish to deceive people. I like accuracy. And it's not that far from the truth, in the end.

[Cone]

See, the way I look at types is by their core values. For example, yes, it is not true that all INTjs are anti-positivists and all INTps are positivists. But the general tendency of an INTj (and ENTp) is, like I said, to "transcend bounds" or keep believing in the potential of other worlds, which is the meaning of neo-tech.com. So it is not necessarily that they ARE anti-positivists, but rather that they hope they don't have to be positivists. In contrast, an INTp is more realist.

[mimisor]

I perfectly agree with you Cone that INTjs are more idealists than they are rationalists, if that's what you're trying to say. Also I believe INTjs are the most idealist among the NT types.

[Creepy-msk]

From Cone:

"It seems to me that INTjs are always trying to "transcend" common thought, which is somewhat different than an INTp's "contrariness". "

transcend common thought, yes. transcend thought, no. I want to avoid writing three pages here.

what is an INTp's contrariness?

" I seriously have no idea why people think INTjs love logical perfection, because if anything, you guys constantly talk about vague intuition and "just knowing", thought that transcends any earthly bounds."

people mean INTjs want things to be logical. so, something doesnt have to be contingent to earthly bounds to be logical. like, one ___ plus one ___ equals two ____s". Im not being pendantic. Maybe the systems are generated intuitively, but what's done within the system is not.

"Or at least you guys try to embrace UDP's concept of "living unlimited". From my viewpoint, it seems kind of strange and funny, as if you are all the biggest anti-positivists on the planet (which is in direct contrast to me.)"

Maybe it would make more sense if i said, that "knowing unlimited" is a better description for me. What is sought to be known is a law, which is i think by definition transcendent. Nevermind if they are transcendent over limited amounts of time, or in limited groups. Here one would just demonstrate the tension that INTjs feel..

"Whereas INTps want to rid the world of assumption and hypocrisy, INTjs want to explore what's beyond or what could be."

Are you contrasting these as opposites? I think INTjs are very.. intent on ridding the world of assumption and hypocrisy.. but maybe we part ways there. You say the biggest assumption of all is to use intuition as evidence, but I say that to assume that's an assumption levels the field.

so, its back to the point that INTjs demand logical connections, not logical -- "objective" premises......

[Catholic Schoolboy]

I think I can say at least something about INTjs, since there are enough of you on the forum to gain substantial information. It seems to me that INTjs are always trying to "transcend" common thought, which is somewhat different than an INTp's "contrariness". I seriously have no idea why people think INTjs love logical perfection, because if anything, you guys constantly talk about vague intuition and "just knowing", thought that transcends any earthly bounds. Or at least you guys try to embrace UDP's concept of "living unlimited". From my viewpoint, it seems kind of strange and funny, as if you are all the biggest anti-positivists on the planet (which is in direct contrast to me.) Whereas INTps want to rid the world of assumption and hypocrisy, INTjs want to explore what's beyond or what could be.

Cone, can I kindly point out that the things in bold are Ni things? But of course you must know this I assume.

[MysticSonic]

"I just know?" The only time I use such statements is when I'm dealing with situations in which the data that is available to us can only be used to make a haphazard guess at best, such as when people attempt to type celebrities. Other than that, however, I find that my analyses of particular things are fairly vigorous and rather linear, done via a deductive format.

[UDP]

.... hmm...........

[Cone]

I should at least say that everything I said is true. Or at least everything I said directly matches what INTjs have said about themselves. I am not creating anything new.

So the question is, am I succumbing to a misperception and all INTjs are truly the same? Or is this rather an opportunity to show the limitations of Socionics?

[MysticSonic]

"So the question is, am I succumbing to a misperception and all INTjs are truly the same? Or is this rather an opportunity to show the limitations of Socionics?"

It's the latter.

[Cone]

Great. I agree.

[UDP]

I was going to remark on Cone's and Gugu's posts, but I decided against such. (this is the explanaiton of my previous "....hmm......." post)
I say this because I agree, too.

Great. I agree.

[niveK]

Socionics is definately limited. I get the feeling from time to time that people expect it to explain the whole of personality and thought and intertype relations to explain the whole of sociology.