Fe test?

[theMime.]

A part of Fe is "reading emotional data" right? Picking up on signals from others that indicate what they are feeling right?

So if I were to ask some Fe base types and some Fe PoLR types to watch a short film and write down the number of times they picked up on an indication of what the person in the film was feeling, would it be an adequate way to test the Fe difference between Fe base types and Fe PoLR types? Yes or no and why?

Thanks for your replies.

[Rubicon]

I think that'd be interesting. Here's a clip from 'East of Eden'. I've always thought that his emotional reaction seems unbelievable and overdone - like he's obviously just acting. James Dean is supposed to be an ISTp. Some people say that this scene is an example of magnificent acting - others that his reaction doesn't make sense.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkSufbaqVUg[/ame]

[Logos]

A part of Fe is "reading emotional data" right? Picking up on signals from others that indicate what they are feeling right?

So if I were to ask some Fe base types and some Fe PoLR types to watch a short film and write down the number of times they picked up on an indication of what the person in the film was feeling, would it be an adequate way to test the Fe difference between Fe base types and Fe PoLR types? Yes or no and why?

Thanks for your replies.

I think that you would probably do best by just testing everyone's type - including all types - and then showing the video. Then take the data and see if any trends or commonalities can be found across all types.

[theMime.]

I think that you would probably do best by just testing everyone's type - including all types - and then showing the video. Then take the data and see if any trends or commonalities can be found across all types.

Thanks for your suggestion.

Yes I agree, better to test ALL types.

Also, I was thinking if people posted their answer publicly it might mess with the accuracy because for instance if the first person says, "I picked up on a change in emotion 10 times" then other people might be influenced by that and then look for 10 changes in emotion and then post that as their answer...I think it's called confirmation bias or something like that.

So maybe people's answers could all be pmed to one person who could later reveal the data and there wouldn't be confirmation bias.

[jewels]

I'm confused. I thought that picking up on emotional cues and other people's feelings was emotional intelligence? I might not understand the difference between Fe and Fi.

I mean, I feel like my Fe friends would pick up the emotion and react to it, sort of shaping the situation in the outside world. I picture this like ping pong balls bouncing around between people.

Where as, I would pick up their emotion, and internalize it, possibly not express much at all, but I'd be aware of it and would understand their depths. Others may or may not be aware that I'm doing that, since I would only express it in some situations, but not others. So it would be more of a ping pong ball bouncing from one person to the other and than stopping.

I'd like to hear more input on this though as the distinction between Fe and Fi is still fuzzy in my mind.

[theMime.]

I'm confused. I thought that picking up on emotional cues and other people's feelings was emotional intelligence? I might not understand the difference between Fe and Fi.

I mean, I feel like my Fe friends would pick up the emotion and react to it, sort of shaping the situation in the outside world. I picture this like ping pong balls bouncing around between people.

Where as, I would pick up their emotion, and internalize it, possibly not express much at all, but I'd be aware of it and would understand their depths. Others may or may not be aware that I'm doing that, since I would only express it in some situations, but not others. So it would be more of a ping pong ball bouncing from one person to the other and than stopping.

I'd like to hear more input on this though as the distinction between Fe and Fi is still fuzzy in my mind.

Yeah.
And even Fe PoLR types know what a smile and a frown means! Maybe that part of Fe theory is just flat out wrong.

Or maybe you're right and Fe isn't so much about recognizing emotions in others but more about I guess being able to change the emotional atmosphere?

[force my hand]

I am very receptive to changes in emotion. For example, I regularily witness exchanges where person A is feeling uncomfortable and person B doesn't realize the effect they're having.

I tend to associate Fe with the expression of a dynamic, internal state and that's what I have difficulty with. It's too jarring for me and it's not how I prefer to think.

[Park]

I am very receptive to changes in emotion. For example, I regularily witness exchanges where person A is feeling uncomfortable and person B doesn't realize the effect they're having.

I tend to associate Fe with the expression of a dynamic, internal state and that's what I have difficulty with. It's too jarring for me and it's not how I prefer to think.

+1

[Phaedrus]

A part of Fe is "reading emotional data" right? Picking up on signals from others that indicate what they are feeling right?

No, not exactly. Nothing suggests that a leading type would be worse at such things than a leading type. Picking up data and signals of what other people are feeling is not the same thing as using a function. But those who are strong in F (Fe and Fi) are usually better at it than those who are weak in F.

So if I were to ask some Fe base types and some Fe PoLR types to watch a short film and write down the number of times they picked up on an indication of what the person in the film was feeling, would it be an adequate way to test the Fe difference between Fe base types and Fe PoLR types? Yes or no and why?

Yes and no. You would see a clear difference in that the Fe base type would more likely be able to pick up on such things, but it would not be an adequate test of the difference between Fe base and Fe PoLR types, because that ability is not directly related to exactly those functions.

[Phaedrus]

I'm confused. I thought that picking up on emotional cues and other people's feelings was emotional intelligence?

It is in a sense. At least it is strongly related to it.

[xyz]

I am very receptive to changes in emotion. For example, I regularily witness exchanges where person A is feeling uncomfortable and person B doesn't realize the effect they're having.

I tend to associate Fe with the expression of a dynamic, internal state and that's what I have difficulty with. It's too jarring for me and it's not how I prefer to think.

+2! Very well articulated sir.

[theMime.]

I am very receptive to changes in emotion. For example, I regularily witness exchanges where person A is feeling uncomfortable and person B doesn't realize the effect they're having.

I tend to associate Fe with the expression of a dynamic, internal state and that's what I have difficulty with. It's too jarring for me and it's not how I prefer to think.

Yeah that bit always seemed off to me...my ISTp brother is pretty killer at recognizing discomfort and what not also!

Ok so what do you mean by the expression of a dynamic internal state?

[force my hand]

Yeah that bit always seemed off to me...my ISTp brother is pretty killer at recognizing discomfort and what not also!

Ok so what do you mean by the expression of a dynamic internal state?

Others may correct or clarify according to their take on it.

For me, 'flow' has become very important. Flow keeps me grounded, and things that I have to adapt to in the world are always taxing it. If I've got a 'strong' or 'good' flow going on, internal changes brought about by the world are seamless and stress-free, which makes me feel relaxed and in control. Stable.

What I associate with Fe - right or wrong - is kind of the opposite to that. I think that they might see that stability as constrictive and boring. They work much better with a dynamic, internal state that is fully resolved/satisfied when it's expressed somehow, be it speech, movement, whatever. It's their preferred, default state.

However, that expression kind of impinges on the deal that I got going on, and I end up resenting that. If I'm chilling out in a hammock and someone's sawing on the cord with a jackknife, I'm obviously going to have a problem with that.

I think maybe where an ENFp fits, for example, is that they too are dynamic, but it feels more uniform and subtle with them. Like it's just easier to match up internal rhythms.

That's pretty abstract. I'm having difficulty describing what I want to say.

[xyz]

Others may correct or clarify according to their take on it.

For me, 'flow' has become very important. Flow keeps me grounded, and things that I have to adapt to in the world are always taxing it. If I've got a 'strong' or 'good' flow going on, internal changes brought about by the world are seamless and stress-free, which makes me feel relaxed and in control. Stable.

What I associate with Fe - right or wrong - is kind of the opposite to that. I think that they might see that stability as constrictive and boring. They work much better with a dynamic, internal state that is fully resolved/satisfied when it's expressed somehow, be it speech, movement, whatever. It's their preferred, default state.

However, that expression kind of impinges on the deal that I got going on, and I end up resenting that. If I'm chilling out in a hammock and someone's sawing on the cord with a jackknife, I'm obviously going to have a problem with that.

I think maybe where an ENFp fits, for example, is that they too are dynamic, but it feels more uniform and subtle with them. Like it's just easier to match up internal rhythms.

That's pretty abstract. I'm having difficulty describing what I want to say.

I totally understand.

Like, the world is constantly flowing, constantly changing, and it's up to me to keep monitoring it and interpreting as to how I see it. If the world is ALWAYS changing, I need some kind of anchor, some kind of constant to compare experiences to. So that constant has to be my feelings, my moods, my "internal state" i guess. I have to keep that constant to keep feeding all this fucking data im getting from around me.

If my internal state gets fucked up, suddenly nothing starts to make sense, and hence I get very frustrated pretty easily. So Fe really blows for me, "expressing emotions" FOR MYSELF and all that jazz because I have to reach deep down and THINK of how my internal state is being effected by my surroundings, when normally that shit is taken care of automatically.


Which is why I guess we seem very "here and now, inside our head" type of guys. Constant data flowing through our senses, and we keep reading it at an internal level.

I hope you all understood some of that.

[theMime.]

So you've got a standard by which to compare your experiences to. Something that's stable and never changes. Then what happens with Fe?

[xyz]

So you've got a standard by which to compare your experiences to. Something that's stable and never changes. And then what happens with Fe?

Fe, MY OWN Fe, means expressing MY OWN emotions. Let me makes this clear, OTHER's being emotional does not bother me nowhere near as much as when people expect reactions from me. When people do that, when people expect me to be all Fe on them, it makes me feel like they want to take a look at my private internal state, something very very personal to me. I don't like doing that.

[Park]

When people do that, when people expect me to be all Fe on them, it makes me feel like they want to take a look at my private internal state, something very very personal to me. I don't like doing that.

Either that or it's like they want me to give them something I don't have, like when they expect an emotional reaction when I don't really have one (not even an "internal" one). And I usually know exactly what the expected reaction is, for some reason. But anyhow, I express my emotions in my own way, which may not be very "external" or visible from the outside, and I don't see a reason it should be. Those who know me well and care about my emotions should know how I feel without me having to elaborate too much on it. The rest can go to hell. I am not letting strangers know how I feel because that's none of their business. Period.

[theMime.]

This is confusing.

I'm an Fe creative and even I don't like sharing my emotions with strangers.

Socionics sucks.

Thanks for sharing tho guys.

[force my hand]

This is confusing.

I'm an Fe creative and even I don't like sharing my emotions with strangers.

Yeah, but think of those videos you made a couple of months back. You may not like consciously 'sharing' your emotions with strangers, but you in your most comfortable state will still display them quite visibly.

[theMime.]

Yeah, but think of those videos you made a couple of months back. You may not like consciously 'sharing' your emotions with strangers, but you in your most comfortable state will still display them quite visibly.

I regretted those vids.

heh I should show you guys a vid of just how dead pan and expressionless I can actually be...it will confuse the heck out of you guys...yes i should do it....yes i think i will.

But I think you might have a point there...sometimes my face gives away things I don't want it to.

[force my hand]

I regretted those vids.

heh I should show you guys a vid of just how dead pan and expressionless I can actually be...it will confuse the heck out of you guys...yes i should do it....yes i think i will.

But I think you might have a point there...sometimes my face gives away things I don't want it to.

I'm sure you could be deadpan.... for 30 seconds.

[theMime.]

I'm sure you could be deadpan.... for 30 seconds.

hahaha. Pffft of course I can be deadpan for longer than 30 seconds!...I can do it for 31 seconds. =P

Oh and also I don't think any other SEI in their right mind would have posted that first vid I had up in the video VI thread.

[theMime.]

Extroverted ethics () is an extroverted, rational, and dynamic information element. It is also called Fe, E, the ethics of emotions, or black ethics.

Extroverted ethics is generally associated with the ability to recognize and convey (i.e. make others experience) passions, moods, and emotional states, generate excitement, liveliness, and feelings, get emotionally involved in activities and emotionally involve others, recognize and describe emotional interaction between people and groups, and build a sense of community and emotional unity.

= internal dynamics of objects

Objects:
Things that can be observed, studied, and discussed apart from the subject (observer)
Fields:
Things that are perceived through the subject by means of feelings and cannot be studied apart from the subject

A common definition of emotive ethics () is "emotions." This is an oversimplification. Not all ESEs and EIEs are very emotional in the common understanding of the word. In addition, all people experience emotions regardless of type. A better description of might be "external emotional expression" or "external self-expression."

types pay close attention to the way people say things, the way they talk, their facial expressions, their choice of words, their gestures, and all other external manifestations of one's internal emotional state. You may think your happiness or discouragement is well concealed and invisible to those around you, but it is all in plain view to types, who directly observe your external self-expression and draw conclusions from it about what's happening inside of you, what you are experiencing, how well you fit into the emotional context of the situation, whether you like or dislike what is going on, and what you may feel like doing next, etc. However, if they are absorbed in their own self-expression, they probably won't pay much attention to you.

Each of us constantly sends out information of a nature. Each unusual intonation or gesture, each hint of irritation in our voice, each awkward pause, each chuckle or sudden change of expression sends a signal to other people. Some types — particularly ILI and SLI (with emotive ethics as their fourth function) consciously try to send as few signals of this kind as possible — and are usually successful. This makes ESEs and EIEs (with emotive ethics as their first function) mistrustful and unsure of themselves, since they have too little information to go by in their interaction with such people.

Four types — ESE and EIE, and also SEI and IEI — have in their ego block and can be said to be highly aware of (have control over) their external self-expression. They are able to consciously stick out in the way they say things or express their internal state and feel confident drawing attention to their , whether or not it matches the sentiments of the group at the moment. They are comfortable being more animated than others in a situation or displaying emotions that don't fit in with those of other people. They use their own expressiveness to guide other people's internal experiences and help them experience a wider range of passions and more intense feelings. The types that respond to this best have emotive ethics in their Super-id block (ILE, LII, LSI, and SLE).

types are people of passion. Their feelings of love and admiration, and of disgust and hatred, are "full-blown." types like to discuss these passions and to analyze and discuss their own and others' feelings — not necessarily to change them, but more to bring them out in the open and understand them in order to base one's actions on one's true passions. types strive for integrity, just as every type strives to make his base function the conscious foundation of his existence. types like to help others talk about and come to terms with their passions (strong inner sentiments) and especially enjoy it when types help structure their feelings and their causes and draw logical conclusions from them. This "structuring" does not at all have to involve a sort of "psychoanalysis session," but usually occurs spontaneously as the type responds to the type's sentiments by putting them into categories and treating them as subjects worthy of logical analysis.

Why is considered a rational element? Because the forms of emotional expressions described above are all discrete — an intonation here, a gesture there, a cough here, a sudden frown there. EIEs and ESEs often seem abrupt because they constantly send out these discrete signals, without smooth transitions between them.

Dominant at the group level is related to collective emotional experiences and serves to bind and unite people. When Fe is at the forefront, the group is in emotional sync. People actively and externally express the group sentiments and emotional state of the moment — for example, by sharing thoughts, experiences, and stories with uncommon animation or artisticism or by mirroring group emotions (whether positive or negative) on their faces and in their body language. In this state, the collective focus is on the external mode of expression of thoughts and feelings — not on their content, sensibility, or usefulness.

.

[theMime.]

No, not exactly. Nothing suggests that a leading type would be worse at such things than a leading type. Picking up data and signals of what other people are feeling is not the same thing as using a function. But those who are strong in F (Fe and Fi) are usually better at it than those who are weak in F.


Yes and no. You would see a clear difference in that the Fe base type would more likely be able to pick up on such things, but it would not be an adequate test of the difference between Fe base and Fe PoLR types, because that ability is not directly related to exactly those functions.

Ok then do you have any suggestions as to how to test the strength of Fe?

And how is that ability not directly related to Fe? Could you please expand on your thoughts?

[Brilliand]

Phaedrus has a valid point that all F types are good at picking up signals, although I disagree that it is equally related to . I think that types that pick up external signals are using their id .

However, I think the test shoudl go beyond "picking up" signals. I can "pick up" signals, I just don't know what they mean.

So I think this test should be an essay. This will help to weed out the types as well, because it's harder to verbalize your id.

[jewels]

that was interesting what some of the ISTps said about Fe. I basically feel similarly. I feel like the Fe types want me to produce a song and dance about how I feel. I can't just be like "I'm really sorry that your cat died." I have to act melodramatic and make my voice like "OHHH NOOOO! your CAT!!!! He diiiiieeed!!! *tears*" That gets the best effect with the Fe types and they feel like I "get" them when I act like that. But it takes energy for me to go around with a song and dance like that.

I feel just as bad for the cat and the person who has lost the cat, even if I don't say it as dramatically.

Also, I feel like if I don't say something dramatically, they kinda don't buy what I'm saying. Like, if I'm not yelling they assume I'm not angry. Like only the emotions you can see exist, where as for me, it's the ones you can't see as obviously in people that I think are stronger.

This also feels fake for me because it sometimes takes me a while to figure out how I feel about something. It's not instant. So I can't be like "oh NOO! The poor precious cat!!" Because I haven't had time to think about how I feel about the cat, but I know they want me to say that. But it feels fake to say something that I am unsure of just to make them feel better.

So I almost need to go away, think it over, and come back and then express how I feel about the cat. And maybe I really don't care that the cat is dead. And really, I don't think it's any of their business also. I guess that's the big difference between Fi and Fe. The Fi is private and not wanting to share everything w/ everyone and the Fe is like a big communal emotion-swap? I dunno, just rambling here.

[Rubicon]

This also feels fake for me because it sometimes takes me a while to figure out how I feel about something. It's not instant. So I can't be like "oh NOO! The poor precious cat!!" Because I haven't had time to think about how I feel about the cat, but I know they want me to say that. But it feels fake to say something that I am unsure of just to make them feel better.

So I almost need to go away, think it over, and come back and then express how I feel about the cat. And maybe I really don't care that the cat is dead. And really, I don't think it's any of their business also. I guess that's the big difference between Fi and Fe. The Fi is private and not wanting to share everything w/ everyone and the Fe is like a big communal emotion-swap? I dunno, just rambling here.

When you say you have to figure out how you feel about something, are you meaning that you have to think about how you should feel? I'm trying to understand what you're meaning here. :-)

[xyz]

I can't just be like "I'm really sorry that your cat died." I have to act melodramatic and make my voice like "OHHH NOOOO! your CAT!!!! He diiiiieeed!!! *tears*" That gets the best effect with the Fe types and they feel like I "get" them when I act like that. But it takes energy for me to go around with a song and dance like that.

Thank god someone else feels the same way.

[Rubicon]

Thank god someone else feels the same way.

Just be yourselves people. Fake Fe is not pretty at all.

[xyz]

FaFe?

[Mediator Kam]

damn wtf is this? No one said to swing your voice up and down like it's a talent show. That's just bullshit. I hate people who would act like that to me if my cat died.

I'd rather you say it like you mean it. If you don't mean it, don't talk to me.

[Sirena]

FaFe?

[Minde]

I'd rather you say it like you mean it. If you don't mean it, don't talk to me.

But, see, that's part of the problem. What if I say it like I don't mean it, but I really do?

[Rubicon]

damn wtf is this? No one said to swing your voice up and down like it's a talent show. That's just bullshit. I hate people who would act like that to me if my cat died.

I'd rather you say it like you mean it. If you don't mean it, don't talk to me.

qft

[Mediator Kam]

But, see, that's part of the problem. What if I say it like I don't mean it, but I really do?

what does that even mean? If you mean something, it ought to come out that way.

[xyz]

Nice to see you again, qb.

[xyz]

what does that even mean? If you mean something, it ought to come out that way.

Thats the damn point, we LOOK like we don't mean it when we say it in a normal calm tone, but we're SAYING the words. Obviously, we wouldn't bother to say "i'm pissed at that" if we weren't actually pissed. However us Fe deficient people wouldn't raise their voice, eyebrows, hands, anything, we'd just say it. Ie, look like I don't mean it, but reallty do.

[Minde]

what does that even mean? If you mean something, it ought to come out that way.

But it doesn't always, unfortunately.

[Mediator Kam]

But it doesn't always, unfortunately.

That is of little importance however. If the person has that type of problem, it wouldn't affect me much. It would be a problem if they did such a thing habitually.

Thats the damn point, we LOOK like we don't mean it when we say it in a normal calm tone, but we're SAYING the words. Obviously, we wouldn't bother to say "i'm pissed at that" if we weren't actually pissed. However us Fe deficient people wouldn't raise their voice, eyebrows, hands, anything, we'd just say it. Ie, look like I don't mean it, but reallty do.

You're missing the point. If you sound cold when you say something, that is all that matters. I don't expect the Olympics from anyone. I just expect a person to not sound dead when you're talking about someone dying.

[Rubicon]

Thats the damn point, we LOOK like we don't mean it when we say it in a normal calm tone, but we're SAYING the words. Obviously, we wouldn't bother to say "i'm pissed at that" if we weren't actually pissed. However us Fe deficient people wouldn't raise their voice, eyebrows, hands, anything, we'd just say it. Ie, look like I don't mean it, but reallty do.

I think we're more perceptive than you think - esp. when it comes to sincerity. At any rate, if it doesn't come out right - it's gotta to be a lot more believable than a Fe show. People that are putting on Fe are so obvious it's laughable.