ISFp Enneagram Type 4s

[Phaedrus]

Which thread?

I don't remember, but I think it was in this forum (Non-socionic Based Type theories). Why don't you search for it? It is no more difficult for you than it is for me to do it.

[Creepy-bg]

also, along with the data please give explainations of the connections and patterns you're seeing so that we can have somebody of your own quadra or temperment double check them (since you've proven that you will not accept the opinions or analysis of SEIs).

[Creepy-bg]

I don't remember, but I think it was in this forum (Non-socionic Based Type theories). Why don't you search for it? It is no more difficult for you than it is for me to do it.

the one making assertions which are contrary to apparent reality is you, therefor the burden of providing proof is also yours.

[Creepy-bg]

one more thing... if turns out that you cannot provide what we ask for (which anyone would agree are reasonable requests given the nature of your statements and supposed abilities) then in the future please refrain from injecting your lies into honest discussions on the forum.

[Phaedrus]

the one making assertions which are contrary to apparent reality is you, therefor the burden of providing proof is also yours.

You are obviously an idiot if you believe in what you say here. I have already explained these correlations too many times. That you are too lazy to read them when I actually post them is your own fault. And the fact that you can't see the general pattern is nothing I can help you with if you insist on keeping your eyes closed. The only thing you have to do to realize that what I say is really the objective truth is to start to read type descriptions -- from the Enneagram and from Socionics. If you refuse to do what, why the hell should I try to help you? You don't want to be helped.

[Phaedrus]

one more thing... if turns out that you cannot provide what we ask for (which anyone would agree are reasonable requests given the nature of your statements and supposed abilities) then in the future please refrain from injecting your lies into honest discussions on the forum.

I am probably the only person on this forum who is always telling the truth, except from the rare cases when I make a joke that no one understannds.

[Creepy-bg]

as it is I can only assume that you are a liar since you seem unable to provide any data or evidence to back up what you say. please do so before attempting to further sidetrack the discussion with more lies.

[Creepy-bg]

I am probably the only person on this forum who is always telling the truth, except from the rare cases when I make a joke that no one understannds.

actually I usually get your jokes and find them pretty amusing. That poem a few weeks back was genius but that isn't the subject at hand. Proof or STFU.

[theMime.]

Well it wasn't this one: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...light=Phaedrus

All you did there was the same thing you did here.

Maybe another one...

*continues search*

[theMime.]

Not this one either: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...light=Phaedrus

You did the same thing there.

[Ezra]

theMime., have you realised what a twat Phaedrus is now?

You are not SEI Four by the way. You can't be.

[Creepy-bg]

You are not SEI Four by the way. You can't be.

pics or it didn't happen

[Rubicon]

Mime, have you tried searching under 'idiot', 'umpteenth', 'objective', 'obvious', 'stupid' ... ?

[Creepy-bg]

Mime, have you tried searching under 'idiot', 'umpteenth', 'objective', 'obvious', 'stupid' ... ?

lol +20

[redbaron]

E-4 Description:

Identity seekers, who feel unique and different

People of this personality type tend to build their identities around their perception of themselves as being somehow different or unique; they are thus self-consciously individualistic. Fours tend to see their difference from others as being both a gift and a curse - a gift, because it sets them apart from those they perceive as being somehow "common," and a curse, as it so often seems to separate them from the simpler forms of happiness that others so readily seem to enjoy. Thus, Fours can manage to feel superior to others while also secretly harboring some degree of longing and envy. A feeling of being a member of the "true aristocracy" alternates with deep feelings of shame, and fears of somehow being deeply flawed or defective.

Fours are emotionally complex and highly sensitive. They long to be understood and appreciated for their authentic selves, but easily feel misunderstood and unappreciated. They have a tendency to withdraw in the face of a world that seems harsh or crude, and are often somewhat moody or temperamental. They are emotionally centered and spend much of their lives immersed in their internal mental landscapes, where they feel free to cultivate and analyse their feelings. A desire to manifest this internal world often leads Fours to an interest in the arts, and some do become actual artists. Whether artistic or not, however, most Fours are aesthetically sensitive and concerned with self-expression and self-revelation, whether it be in the clothes they wear or in the overall nature of their often idiosyncratic lifestyles.

Fours are somewhat melancholic by disposition, and under stress tend to lapse into depression. They also tend to be self-absorbed, even under the best of circumstances, but when unbalanced, easily give way to a self-indulgence which they perceive as being fully justified as a way to compensate for the general lack of pleasure they experience in their lives. Rather than look for practical solutions to their difficulties, Fours are prone to fantasizing about a savior who will rescue them from their unhappiness.

Intellectual Fours tend to mistakenly type themselves as Fives, and a heavy wing can certainly exacerbate this tendency. Fours however, unlike Fives, tend to be self-revealing and comfortable with emotional expression.

[redbaron]

Now having posted this description, I will say that I definitely think my SEI dad is an E-4 type. He is closer to an IEI than the SEI Si subtype would be, but he's still SEI. He fits this description of E-4 very well in addition to the SEI description. I dunno what else to say.

[Phaedrus]

It doesn't need pointing out that type four is an introverted and an ethical (F) type, which is also clearly seen in the description below. So, we already agree that we are dealing with an IXFX type, socionically speaking. The problem under discussion is whether a 4 can be an SEI (ISFp) or not. I claim that it is impossible, and that every 4 is necessarily an intuitive (N) type. So I will not accept any person as a 4 if that person is some other socionic type than INFp or INFj. Clear signs of N>S in the text are put in bold:

E-4 Description:
Identity seekers, who feel unique and different

People of this personality type tend to build their identities around their perception of themselves as being somehow different or unique; they are thus self-consciously individualistic. Fours tend to see their difference from others as being both a gift and a curse - a gift, because it sets them apart from those they perceive as being somehow "common," and a curse, as it so often seems to separate them from the simpler forms of happiness that others so readily seem to enjoy. Thus, Fours can manage to feel superior to others while also secretly harboring some degree of longing and envy. A feeling of being a member of the "true aristocracy" alternates with deep feelings of shame, and fears of somehow being deeply flawed or defective.

Fours are emotionally complex and highly sensitive. They long to be understood and appreciated for their authentic selves, but easily feel misunderstood and unappreciated. They have a tendency to withdraw in the face of a world that seems harsh or crude, and are often somewhat moody or temperamental. They are emotionally centered and spend much of their lives immersed in their internal mental landscapes, where they feel free to cultivate and analyse their feelings. A desire to manifest this internal world often leads Fours to an interest in the arts, and some do become actual artists. Whether artistic or not, however, most Fours are aesthetically sensitive and concerned with self-expression and self-revelation, whether it be in the clothes they wear or in the overall nature of their often idiosyncratic lifestyles.

Fours are somewhat melancholic by disposition, and under stress tend to lapse into depression. They also tend to be self-absorbed, even under the best of circumstances, but when unbalanced, easily give way to a self-indulgence which they perceive as being fully justified as a way to compensate for the general lack of pleasure they experience in their lives. Rather than look for practical solutions to their difficulties, Fours are prone to fantasizing about a savior who will rescue them from their unhappiness.

Intellectual Fours tend to mistakenly type themselves as Fives [An intellectual SEI that could mistake him- or herself as a Five is a contradiction in terms. There are no intellectual SEIs, and an SEI can never ever be even remotely resemblant to a Five.], and a heavy wing can certainly exacerbate this tendency. Fours however, unlike Fives, tend to be self-revealing and comfortable with emotional expression.

[theMime.]

You don't have to be an N type to be emotionally complex.
You don't have to be an N type to see yourself as unique or to want to be seen as unique.
You don't have to be an N type to want to be understood and appreciated for your authentic self.
You don't have to be an N type to spend much of your life in your internal mental landscape...although perhaps it is more common among N types.
You don't have to be an N type to be in the habbit of fantisizing about a solution in stead of looking for a practical solution.

[redbaron]

You don't have to be an N type to be emotionally complex.
You don't have to be an N type to see yourself as unique or to want to be seen as unique.
You don't have to be an N type to want to be understood and appreciate for your authentic self.
You don't have to be an N type to spend much of your life in your internal mental landscape...although perhaps it is more common among N types.
You don't have to be an N type to be in the habbit of fantisizing about a solution in stead of looking for a practical solution.

I agree with this. I think they're rarer than SEI 9s, but I believe they do exist.

[theMime.]

I agree with this. I think they're rarer than SEI 9s, but I believe they do exist.

Yes.

[Phaedrus]

You don't have to be an N type to be emotionally complex.
You don't have to be an N type to see yourself as unique or to want to be seen as unique.
You don't have to be an N type to want to be understood and appreciated for your authentic self.
You don't have to be an N type to spend much of your life in your internal mental landscape...although perhaps it is more common among N types.
You don't have to be an N type to be in the habbit of fantisizing about a solution in stead of looking for a practical solution.

Irrelevant. You just made exactly the mistake that I specifically told you not to make. You should not focus on the details here, you should focus on the overall picture. And you probably can't do that, because you are an S type. And that means that you are bad at reading type descriptions in the first place. Now, that means that you have some work to do. You have to study type descriptions more and learn how to read them correctly.

[Phaedrus]

I agree with this. I think they're rarer than SEI 9s, but I believe they do exist.

What you believe here is completely irrelevant. I am trying to teach you the objective truth, and you should simply accept what I say without questioning it until you have understood what I am talking about.

[redbaron]

Irrelevant. You just made exactly the mistake that I specifically told you not to make. You should not focus on the details here, you should focus on the overall picture. And you probably can't do that, because you are an S type. And that means that you are bad at reading type descriptions in the first place. Now, that means that you have some work to do. You have to study type descriptions more and learn how to read them correctly.

She was replying specifically to your bolded points. Not ignoring the larger picture.

[Rubicon]

An intellectual SEI that could mistake him- or herself as a Five is a contradiction in terms. There are no intellectual SEIs, and an SEI can never ever be even remotely resemblant to a Five

Now now Phaedrus - that's just mean.

[Phaedrus]

She was replying specifically to your bolded points.

And I had already told her not to do that. So why did she do it anyway?

Not ignoring the larger picture.

She was definitely ignoring the larger picture. Otherwise she would have realized that the bolded parts clearly suggest that type 4 is an N type, and that her comments were therefore totally redundant, irrelevant, and misleading in this context.

[Phaedrus]

Now now Phaedrus - that's just mean.

How can it be mean when it is an indisputable objective truth?

[Rubicon]

How can it be mean when it is an indisputable objective truth?

Lol. I'm disputing it - how's that.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Can I just clarify..are you saying that if you look at *all* the bolded points, as though they themselves were their own list, it would describe an N type?

[Phaedrus]

Lol. I'm disputing it - how's that.

Unacceptable of course. You are an ignorant idiot if you actually believe that SEIs can be intellectuals in the common sense of that term. And you cannot seriously believe that an SEI can correctly identify with type Five, because if you do that you don't know a shit what you are talking about. I cannot really believe that you know so little about the types that you can say such things, but maybe you really do, I'm not sure.

[Phaedrus]

Can I just clarify..are you saying that if you look at *all* the bolded points, as though they themselves were their own list, it would describe an N type?

Taken all together they describe a person that is not an S type, that's right. But they can of course not be used as a complete description of an N type and not of every N type either. There are much better descriptions of N types than that one.

[Rubicon]

Unacceptable of course. You are an ignorant idiot if you actually believe that SEIs can be intellectuals in the common sense of that term. And you cannot seriously believe that an SEI can correctly identify with type Five, because if you do that you don't know a shit what you are talking about. I cannot really believe that you know so little about the types that you can say such things, but maybe you really do, I'm not sure.

I'm not sure exactly how you're defining the word 'intellectual', but I'm assuming you think type 4s are INFps. Correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, then saying that INFps can mistake themselves for an intellectual type, but ISFps can't is ridiculous.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Can I just clarify..are you saying that if you look at *all* the bolded points, as though they themselves were their own list, it would describe an N type?

Taken all together they describe a person that is not an S type, that's right. But they can of course not be used as a complete description of an N type and not of every N type either. There are much better descriptions of N types than that one.

So does anyone else think, when you look at that type 4 description as per above, that by looking at it that way..ie especially the bolded part.. that it describes a type which isn't S?

[Rubicon]

So does anyone else think, when you look at that type 4 description as per above, that by looking at it that way..ie especially the bolded part.. that it describes a type which isn't S?

To be honest, I see what Phaedrus is getting at. They sound like N qualities to me. I could easily apply all those points to my personality, but I think I'd be missing the intent and taking advantage of the vagueness of the description.

[Phaedrus]

I'm not sure exactly how you're defining the word 'intellectual', but I'm assuming you think type 4s are INFps. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then I have to correct you. I know an indisputable INFj who is also an indisputable 4, so there is at least on INFj 4 in the world. I am still not sure of the exact correlation(s) between type 4 and INFps and INFjs.

If that's the case, then saying that INFps can mistake themselves for an intellectual type, but ISFps can't is ridiculous.

Have I ever said that an INFp can mistake themselves for a 5? No, I haven't. Have I ever said that INFps can be intellectuals? No, I haven't said that either. (And I haven't said INFps can't be intellectuals either. I have only said that ISFps can't be intellectuals, that ISFps can't seriously misidentify themselves as 5s, and that ISFps can't be 4s.)

A correctly typed INFp is never a 5, and they are never a typical example of an intellectual. I am not completely sure that there are no INFp intellectuals, but they are certainly not the best examples anyway.

[Phaedrus]

To be honest, I see what Phaedrus is getting at. They sound like N qualities to me. I could easily apply all those points to my personality, but I think I'd be missing the intent and taking advantage of the vagueness of the description.

Good point.

[theMime.]

She was replying specifically to your bolded points. Not ignoring the larger picture.

Yes exactly.

[theMime.]

A lot of the things in the E4 descriptions do indeed sound like N qualities but you still don't HAVE to be an N type to be a 4. Look I'm a 4 and my 4ness probably manifests itself in a different way than with 4 N types but I'm still a 4.

Agh I have to go soon but I'll finish what I was saying later.

[redbaron]

A lot of the things in the E4 descriptions do indeed sound like N qualities but you still don't HAVE to be an N type to be a 4. Look I'm a 4 and my 4ness probably manifests itself in a different way than with 4 N types but I'm still a 4.

An example of this might be an SEI who desperately desires to have the most beautiful garden on the block. He wants to be known as THE gardener. He wants his garden to be special. He doesn't spend the day brooding over this, he spends the day gardening and seeking new and rarer breeds of plants. LOL I dunno. I could see a lot of different ways that an SEI could display his/her 4-ness. Even though I do agree that the overall description leans more towards an N-type.

[theMime.]

I know you're talking about the overall description Phaedrus.

The thing is most of those bolded points are true for me and according to you as an S type most of those things shouldn't be true for me right? You're saying that with those bolded points an S type CAN'T have most those qualities right?...perhaps one or two things but not all. Well most of them are true for me.

[Mediator Kam]

Besides, we all know SEIs suffer that same Introvyrt Stryfe. ^_^

NICE GIMME HIGH FIVE

you know it sista.