ISFp Enneagram Type 4s

[normal]

4w7

[Ezra]

You don't have to pay for the information when you have a perfectly serviceable and functional library, as well as perfectly serviceable and functional library card that has been in use since the age of 8, as well as a very kind and generous enneagram expert who happily recommended some of the best books on the subject.

Very true. I didn't even think of library.

I'm not sure why reading all the inner type motivations, all the descriptions, and finding the best fit, which, incidentally, a 4, is "labeling myself pitifully". I'm not sure whether talking with Esper, a quite knowledgeable and charming enneagram saavy person, and identifying with her on many 4 motivations, constitutes as "labeling myself pitifully". Actually, I find it a boon to my continual self discovery process.

I apologise profoundly. I can see how this would be highly insulting to you.

Why do you think that just because you've read the book, you're some sort of expert who can judge other people's type? I have read the book also, does that make me able to go around arbitrarily smacking judgements on people that reek of the superficial, the external? It clearly states in the enneagram book written by Palmer that typing other people is often challenging and unreliable.

You're absolutely correct.

To be honest, I'm not really surprised at that. What SEI-4 would ever share their insights with you? You are too entrenched in your idealized version of a "insightful, visionistic 4" - any insight they might have would be quickly ridiculed. You are forgetting that 4s focus inward to maintain a sense of personal identity. Inward. What part of "inward" don't you understand? My insights, my thoughts, my feelings, my true desires - they are sacred ground. Not to be taken lightly. Not to be scrutinized by others at their will.

And because I'm not close to you, you won't share your thoughts and feelings with me, because they are yours to share with those who care about and respect you. And why shouldn't you?

But I must say, managing to utter "SEI" and "******" in the same sentence was a nice touch. What a clever bastard you are, Ezra.

Thanks. I didn't even notice that.

Ahh, I see. This is where the hangup is. I'm not even sure where to begin. I will say that

a) Good food does not equal Alpha, and vice versa.
b) Music does not equal Alpha, and vice versa.
c) Good times does not equal Alpha, and vice versa.

I'm not quite sure why you think you can even begin to comprehend Alpha quadra. You obvious have no idea what they're like, what they think, the scope of their intelligence, or what they stand for.

I have far less of an idea than you, as a member, do. However, I'm not sure it's far to say that I have no idea what they're like. I've got quite a clear picture in my mind of an Alpha atmosphere, but you've shown that Alphas alone are actually quite formidable people when they want to be. I never for one doubted the intelligence of an Alpha; it's simply that, collectively, their style was far from my own. And while it was in their best intentions, groups of Alphas who have attempted to include me in some way and then proceed to call me "boring" or "no fun" when I don't have just annoyed me, and have caused me to come up with conclusions which can actually insult people who don't do this. And I'm sure there are Alphas who are serious, just like there are Betas who don't like loud, noisy clubs, Gammas who aren't businessmen, or Deltas who don't like fixing the roof, chopping the firewood and knitting.

By using the word "guarentee" you set yourself up for a logical disaster. You set yourself up as an unquestionable authority on the enneagram and 4s in particular, when in fact you are not. You are simply a person who is trying his best to understand things, just like everyone else.

You're right. Using the word "guarentee" implies that what I say is certainly the case, when in fact, it isn't. It makes me look pigheaded and unwilling to consider other possibilities, of which there are obviously many. While there's no point debating points like "SLE = sensing logical extrotim", SLE Fours - while not particularly interesting to me - merit discussion for sure. After all, everything should be questioned.

If you were a person in real life I would get a feeling of dismissal - the feeling of "What is the point of arguing with this person? He's obviously close minded, unwilling to admit to the intricacies of a subject and the opposition of his opponent's side. He is unwilling to be open to new information and fit it into his sphere of knowledge." Reasoning or arguing with a person like that can be a very useless, degrading, and frustrating experience.

I admit, it's a major flaw of mine. It discourages people from associating myself with them; I become more repulsive to them.

It is the definition of SEI you're tripping up on here. All Socionics types are people, Goddammit. Socionics deals with the whys and wherefores, not stupid external shit like music and food. Regardless, if you are willing to label a person as SEI - and therefore they are brainless harmless goons that make jokes and are not able to think of the future - I think the whole point of Socionics is quite lost on you.

Okay, fair point. However, I disagree that socionics explains "why" to the extent that, say, the Enneagram does. Essentially, if we were to ask, "why is that person so good at winning verbal arguments?" we could come up with something like "because he is Se ego and so knows how good his opponent is at it in relation to himself" or "because she has strong Ti so she is logical and consistent" or even "he is Ne valuing - he is willing to consider the possibilities". However, the Enneagram goes deeper than this. It explains why we are the way we are. Socionics doesn't tell us why we have Ni as a fifth function, or Fe as a third function, or Si as a base function. The only answers it could give us would be along the lines of "Ni is a fifth function because Ni is a fifth function" which is useless. The Enneagram will explain our behaviours and patterns in an accessible, insightful way. So, "why do some of us value what socionists will often call Introverted Intuition? Well, because..." - you get the idea.

By the way, when did I say I thought I was "special"?

You didn't it was an assumption. Fours think they're special (feel free to debate not with me but with R&H or Palmer; they mentioned it, not me; I'm merely using what they say), and since you believe you're a Four, you must think you're special. In case you're sceptical, here's the logical format.

P1. Fours think they're special.
P2. dolphin thinks she's a Four.

C. Therefore dolpin thinks she's special.

The only way you can attack that is via the first premise. Feel free to do so.

I like to employ the "live and let live" ideal most of the time, actually. I realize that most of my arguments will fall on deaf ears and I will lose much time and energy debating things that won't matter in the future. But occasionally I am angered and disgusted by a person who not only believes they are God, but in fact contrives to force that ideal on others in such a closeminded, arrogant manner - so angry and disgusted that I am compelled to speak out.

I agree that there is no point arguing with people like this.

I believe she was referring to the fact that all enneagrams are a mixed type - one of their corresponding types - that is, a mix of the type on either side. For example, 4w3 and 4w5 are different. So, it would be perfectly reasonable for Loki to state that a 4 with a 3 wing would have some 3 motivations.

[...]

Did you get that?

I've read that before, and because I've read nothing contrary to it, I agree with it. However, I debate the meaning of "mixed types". Are you referring to a type that is actually a mixture e.g. a 4w3 = a type which is a mix of a Four and a Three, or simply that a 4w3 = a Four who shows characteristics of a Three?

I have had the great fortune to have met only a limited share of such shockingly closeminded individuals. And I would not be so biased, or so jaded as to dismiss a ton of people on the grounds of the pigheadness of one individual. I might for an instant succumb to that sorry stereotype in my anger and emotionality - but fortunately my intelligence, reasonableness, common sense, and sense of irony would prevail.

This is very effluent writing, dolphin. I commend you for it.

[JRiddy]

I'm an Enneagram 10w30. No wait, that's the oil I put in my car.

No one will resolve any of these arguments about what e-type matches what sociotype. I don't even see why the two should even need to be compatible. Why couldnt' an SEI be an 8? The point of neither one of these two theories is to limit people, but rather to help them expand. If you view either one of these theories as a way to put people into little boxes so you can understand them, then you are not only being a jackass, but you are missing the chance to learn about how people interact and think. None of it is perfect, but if it helps you develop personally and socially, it probably isn't bad.

If the reason you study these things is so you can conveniently put people into categories, then you are missing the point. We don't study chemistry so we can say "this is iron and this is plutonium"; we study it so we can make stronger metals and bigger bombs. We don't study economics so we can say "this is a tax and this is a subsidy"; we study it so we can try do predict what effect an economic action will have. Likewise, we do not study psychology and personality so we can say "this person is a 6 and this person is an EIE", we do it so that we can try to have a better life and a better society. If you're trying to make the world make sense, forget it; it ain't happenin'. But if you want to see if you can just learn something that might help you, you might just find something here.

[hellothere]

If the reason you study these things is so you can conveniently put people into categories, then you are missing the point. We don't study chemistry so we can say "this is iron and this is plutonium"; we study it so we can make stronger metals and bigger bombs. We don't study economics so we can say "this is a tax and this is a subsidy"; we study it so we can try do predict what effect an economic action will have. Likewise, we do not study psychology and personality so we can say "this person is a 6 and this person is an EIE", we do it so that we can try to have a better life and a better society. If you're trying to make the world make sense, forget it; it ain't happenin'. But if you want to see if you can just learn something that might help you, you might just find something here.

be careful now, people might start to doubt your Ti-ness

[aka-kitsune]

No one will resolve any of these arguments about what e-type matches what sociotype. I don't even see why the two should even need to be compatible. Why couldnt' an SEI be an 8? The point of neither one of these two theories is to limit people, but rather to help them expand.

While I agree with the spirit of your "Why can't we all just get along?" plea in favor of separate-yet-equal typologies, I can't agree that there are NO (or should be no) points of overlap between any personality typology and another. Jury's out on some of these arguments for me, but the suggestion that SEI can be an enneatype 8 is like saying, "Why can't a mouse be a Cape buffalo?" Suffice it to say that primary elements of each category are incompatible with the other. The systems are not entirely analogous, but also not completely incongruous.

In a brief reply to your assertion, I'd say 8s are not introverts. The definition/description of the nature of a enneaype 8 is counter to an assertion of introversion.

While I would normally agree with the idea that all type 4s are iNtuitives, because that is my understanding, I'm still not familiar enough with all the cogent points of socionics to say that an SEI cannot also be a type 4. I'd be more interested to know whether dolphin actually comes out INFP on M-B, and also why to hear her explain a bit why she doesn't relate to as a primary information element in her makeup.

[tcaudilllg]

I knew this would be another Enneagram thread. >_<

[JRiddy]

be careful now, people might start to doubt your Ti-ness

A man's gotta tickle his Te every here and now, you know? Plus this is a very Ne argument too. Nothing should stand in the way of development and so forth. You can take it as Fi too, if you like, in that it supports the idea that we should view socionics and enneagram as tools for understanding relationships.

While I agree with the spirit of your "Why can't we all just get along?" plea in favor of separate-yet-equal typologies, I can't agree that there are NO (or should be no) points of overlap between any personality typology and another. Jury's out on some of these arguments for me, but the suggestion that SEI can be an enneatype 8 is like saying, "Why can't a mouse be a Cape buffalo?" Suffice it to say that primary elements of each category are incompatible with the other. The systems are not entirely analogous, but also not completely incongruous.

Clearly there are correlations, and I'm generally in favor of discussion and argument that might help determine those things. But it when people develop such strong conceptions of what here is what there, they are no longer open to discussion or learning.

For the record, Enneagram and Socionics are not seperate-but-equal typologies, although thanks for the racism reference. They are vastly different in a number of ways, and I strongly prefer socionics. I find Enneagram to be a little too neat and philosophical, almost religious in a certain way, in that it has as its goal "pristine enlightenment", although it certainly implies no deities and contains no normative moral principles. Socionics is a speculative model that may be able to provide a long-sought link between analytic psychology and harder sciences, or at least might be able to make testable predictions. Though in its current state it is hardly a "science", it at least aspires to be one, and that is not among the Enneagram's goals.

In a brief reply to your assertion, I'd say 8s are not introverts. The definition/description of the nature of a enneaype 8 is counter to an assertion of introversion.

Ok, I was kinda exaggerating about the SEI 8 (but I still believe it is remotely possible). But an LSI eight doesn't sound all that far fetched to me. Some great leaders and challengers have been introverts. Introversion is socionics is much more strongly associated with reactiveness as opposed to proactiveness than with shyness as opposed to gregariousness. Even that definition is too simple, and lacks the necessary subtlety. I would agree that 8 goes against Si principles in nearly all cases, but I can actually imagine that an SXI could be very strongly motivated to spread Si within their sphere of influence, in a way that could at least be similar to an 8. In fact, an 8w9 doesn't sound too bad for an SLI, and 9w8 seems to fit the bill for an (ethical subtype) SEI pretty well. Dang it, now I'm arguing this stuff too...look what you did to me.

While I would normally agree with the idea that all type 4s are iNtuitives, because that is my understanding, I'm still not familiar enough with all the cogent points of socionics to say that an SEI cannot also be a type 4. I'd be more interested to know whether dolphin actually comes out INFP on M-B, and also why to hear her explain a bit why she doesn't relate to as a primary information element in her makeup.

That might be interesting to hear, I admit. I wasn't really responding to a specific topic in this thread so much as expressing a mounting sentiment that has been growing ever since I started becoming active in this forum. In that sense, I likely overreacted. But what are you gonna do? As long as we discuss these things with the intent to learn and understand, then I think that we will all do well by the ensuing arguments. But once we begin trumpeting our particular conception of Socionics-to-Enneagram dogma, we lose sight of what is important here.

[crazedrat]

E-type is illogical and of little value to begin with. It is better to ignore it so it does not confuse you.

[misutii]

I think dolphin is ISFp-Fe 4w3. From my experience ISFp-Fe can be a 4 but ISFp-Si always seems to be a 9.

The thing with identifying someone as a 4 is that it's kind of difficult on a forum like this. Ezra I think you're operating on insufficient data. Dolphin has had certain posts in certain threads that ring of a 4 very loudly, especially to other 4s.

Furthermore 4s are heavily defined by their emotionality, and this is something that logical types are quite frankly less adept at observing. Like many times when I read someone's post I get a hint of their emotional state that's difficult to describe but I know it's there. Dolphin's posts resemble the posts of other 4s here in this manner. It's part of why she was at first mistaken for an INFp. In threads we've both posted in on the forum I've always got the impression that she understands where I'm coming from and vice-versa, whereas with with other ISFps, particularly ISFp-Si 9s, there's a stumbling block preventing us from understanding each other. So we'll disagree on something, simply due to semantics, when in reality we actually agree.

[Darkstar]

I'll be your friend. [=

I have noticed you are seeking "contact "with different forum members.

are there anything you want to say regarding this?

I bet you have come up with something good, what is it? tell me(us)! I bet it's good


a good ILE always shares his ideas becasue he has so many i

[aestrivex]

i am highly skeptical of SEI 4s and i don't think themime is a 4.

[Robot]

i am highly skeptical of SEI 4s and i don't think themime is a 4.

Are you joking or are you being serious?

If you're being serious I'm extremely skeptical that she'd let you get close enough to her to actually see who she is as a person and see how she works. The enneagram is about motivation and fixations...and they're not always apparent with behavior. Are you highly in tune with her fixations and motivations?

[aestrivex]

Are you joking or are you being serious?

If you're being serious I'm extremely skeptical that she'd let you get close enough to her to actually see who she is as a person and see how she works. The enneagram is about motivation and fixations...and they're not always apparent with behavior. Are you highly in tune with her fixations and motivations?

i won't go there, but i have talked to her a fair bit. and yes i'm serious.

[Robot]

i won't go there, but i have talked to her a fair bit. and yes i'm serious.

Well she said eventually she'd write up or even maybe make a vid explaining her reasoning.

What's your alternative type for her?

[aestrivex]

Well she said eventually she'd write up or even maybe make a vid explaining her reasoning.

What's your alternative type for her?

2w1 sx/sp -- the variant is tentative because i don't really understand variants even though i think it makes sense.

[Robot]

2w1 sx/sp -- the variant is tentative because i don't really understand variants even though i think it makes sense.

Mmmm. Gettin a 2 vibe eh? Hmmmm.

Wanna explain a little?

[strrrng]

2w1 sx/sp -- the variant is tentative because i don't really understand variants even though i think it makes sense.

This is utterly retarded, as is the notion that ISFp's can't be 4's. Come out of your virtual reality and start observing real people of that type. The benefits are great.

[Mediator Kam]

who rly cares man.

All I wanna do is (BANG BANG BANG BANG!)
And (KKKAAAA CHING!)
And take your money.

[Mediator Kam]

You rly need to know the song for me to answer that.

anyway robot, what type are you now?

[Robot]

You rly need to know the song for me to answer that.

anyway robot, what type are you now?

Type untypable.

What's your hypothesis?

[Mediator Kam]

hell if I know.

Just pick one out of the hat.

[Robot]

hell if I know.

Just pick one out of the hat.

GRYFFINDOR!!

Oh wait, wrong hat.

[Mediator Kam]

GRYFFINDOR!!

Oh wait, wrong hat.

ur strange.

[Phaedrus]

There are no ISFp 4s, and every ISFp is a 9. Why is it so difficult for people to accept this obvious truth? You seem unable to see general patterns in reality and relate them to different theoretical models.

[strrrng]

There are no ISFp 4s, and every ISFp is a 9. Why is it so difficult for people to accept this obvious truth? You seem unable to see general patterns in reality and relate them to different theoretical models.

You seem to be unable to come outside of theoretical models and observe natural patterns in reality.

[Satan]

Phaedrus right now you're being difficult to love

You're too happy to be a 4 dolphin.

[Khola aka Bee]

LALALALALLALALALALALALLALA

[Robot]

LALALALALLALALALALALALLALA

that's a good point

[Khola aka Bee]

Well yeah. I wanted to say something witty and so on, make a little presence here and all. And then I couldn't be bothered. That was my middle ground.

[aestrivex]

Well yeah. I wanted to say something witty and so on, make a little presence here and all. And then I couldn't be bothered. That was my middle ground.

if i had to guess, i might say you were a 7.

[JRiddy]

if i had to guess, i might say you were a 7.

Good thing you don't have to guess, I guess.

[Lotus]

if i had to guess, i might say you were a 7.

No.

[strrrng]

if i had to guess, i might say you were a 7.

lol @ this

[Khola aka Bee]

7 is so mainstream.

[Robot]

Well yeah. I wanted to say something witty and so on, make a little presence here and all. And then I couldn't be bothered. That was my middle ground.

Pogo stick.

[Robot]

Hey niffweed are you gonna tell us why you think Mimey girl is a 2?

[Satan]

7 is so mainstream.

and you're oh-so-much-better

[Phaedrus]

Phaedrus right now you're being difficult to love

I am always difficult to love.

[Lotus]

7 is so mainstream.

and you're oh-so-much-better

+10

[Phaedrus]

That's why you're a paradox.

Lyrics:

I am a paradox
I am a paradox
A wolf in the day, at night a sheep
I am a paradox

I am a scary fox
I am a scary fox
I am anything I want to be
When nobody's there to see

Praying for dolphins
Phaddy's a killer wale
He's a crazy man
Yeah, that's what I am

Keep me behind the bars
Or I'll be among the stars
No matter how mean you are to me
I am immune to scars

I am a paradox
I am a paradox
An ISTj-INTp
Yes, I am a paradox

Music:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLDEfysyPDo&feature=related[/ame]