EIIs/INFjs resisting "invasions" and Se PoLR

[Minde]

This is my own personal take on this idea. Is this something that other INFjs - or even other types - understand or identify with? Or disagree with? Or would care to expand upon?


Giving someone else control/responsibility is one thing. Someone else taking control/responsibility is another. The former can be acceptable; the latter can be... unacceptable.

The former is something I choose to do. It is on my terms, even if that isn't readily apparent, like when someone comes along and assumes charge. A common term is that they're "taking" control, but really I'm letting them take it, so it's a sort of giving. And I am consistently willing to do it if I think the other person is capable and willing enough. Which is quite often.

The latter, when opposed to the former, happens when I've said, "No, this is mine" and they keep going. That's like an invasion and will be met by resistance, either passive or active. There are somethings that for whatever reason, even if the other person is more than capable of handling them, I've decided belong to me. That can be anything - from something as abstract as an idea to something as concrete as a spoon. And if someone tries to force it from me I will smite them. Yes, smite. My smiting may look different than some people's but it is smiting nonetheless.


These are thoughts that have been bubbling around in my mind for a little. I have seen talk about how INFjs are so passive and like to give up control and are so accommodating etc., and... um, no. Not always, anyway.

[Exodus]

This is definitely an Se PoLR thing; I feel exactly the same way about control.

[Jonathan]

when I've said, "No, this is mine" and they keep going.

At a certain point, this gets beyond something that's type-related. People may differ regarding at what point and for what reasons they say "No, this is mine" and in the ferver of their response. But I think it's fairly universal that if someone says very seriously "that's enough; time out" and the other person persists with the unwanted action, people of any type would likely be annoyed or upset about that.

[Exodus]

Actually, any type with conscious Se is going to be much more sensitive about where personal and territorial boundaries lie. It's just that Se ego types tend to push and manipulate the boundaries instead of keeping them rigid and predictable. I have a really awesome theory about this.

[munenori2]

I could write lots about this. I identify extremely strongly with the 'giving' aspect and, man, the taking feels like a violation. In fact, this more or less corresponds to the source of animosity of most of my problems with my Se-dominant roomie.

[consentingadult]

At a certain point, this gets beyond something that's type-related. People may differ regarding at what point and for what reasons they say "No, this is mine" and in the ferver of their response. But I think it's fairly universal that if someone says very seriously "that's enough; time out" and the other person persists with the unwanted action, people of any type would likely be annoyed or upset about that.

I agree: every type has the right and the capability to establish boundaries. It's healthy behavior and a sign of psychological health.

[consentingadult]

Actually, any type with conscious Se is going to be much more sensitive about where personal and territorial boundaries lie. It's just that Se ego types tend to push and manipulate the boundaries instead of keeping them rigid and predictable. I have a really awesome theory about this.

I love theories, let's hear it!

[Slacker]

Oh, no, I don't think INFjs are particularly accommodating at all. They don't come right out and confront someone about wanting to be in control - THAT is the Se PoLR - but they like having control about things that are important to them.

For my sister, she HAS to be in control of all family holidays and parties. This is a big deal. If I try to "do" a holiday, she will get upset. She won't confront me but I know her well enough to know when it's upsetting her. I just let her do that kind of thing. Family holidays = her job. AND if I help her on one of these events, I must do things the way she wants me to.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

fwiw I don't find my INFj friends controlling or not. The give and take never an issue. Could be due to activity relations I guess.

[Slacker]

fwiw I don't find my INFj friends controlling or not. The give and take never an issue. Could be due to activity relations I guess.

I don't think INFjs are particularly controlling. But any type is going to want at least some control over some things. I think what was said is that people act like INFjs are pushovers who are super accommodating and never assert control over anything. Which isn't the case.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I don't think INFjs are particularly controlling. But any type is going to want at least some control over some things. I think what was said is that people act like INFjs are pushovers who are super accommodating and never assert control over anything. Which isn't the case.

Oh yeah. I probably can't really comment here then. I've got a few INFj friends and we've known each other for quite a while so it's almost like we understand what we want and need pretty well now and we're equally accommodating with each other. I think if they don't want to do something then they say it, I get it right away but maybe other people don't listen properly I guess? . In saying that my *best* friend INFj kind of lets girlfriends take advantage of him imo. I've never really spoke to him about it because I guess at the end of the day thats how he does things and I wouldn't want to interfere too much..unless he asked me what I think. Is this what you mean or am I missing the point entirely?

I don't think INFj's are pushovers, sometimes people don't listen enough and return their accommodating nature with equal respect to understand that they have needs and what they wan't too. I feel it's more a failing in others rather than INFj

[UDP]

INFjs can even take control of group projects and be somewhat domineering if they think everyone else is a slacker. They might tend to just do the "hey, let me do this, because I know you are incompetent" sort of thing, but they can be leaders.

[leckysupport]

INFjs can even take control of group projects and be somewhat domineering if they think everyone else is a slacker. They might tend to just do the "hey, let me do this, because I know you are incompetent" sort of thing, but they can be leaders.

If they think someones a slacker it's more likely they'll start a war with the slackers conscious.

[Lobo]

This is my own personal take on this idea. Is this something that other INFjs - or even other types - understand or identify with? Or disagree with? Or would care to expand upon?


Giving someone else control/responsibility is one thing. Someone else taking control/responsibility is another. The former can be acceptable; the latter can be... unacceptable.

The former is something I choose to do. It is on my terms, even if that isn't readily apparent, like when someone comes along and assumes charge. A common term is that they're "taking" control, but really I'm letting them take it, so it's a sort of giving. And I am consistently willing to do it if I think the other person is capable and willing enough. Which is quite often.

The latter, when opposed to the former, happens when I've said, "No, this is mine" and they keep going. That's like an invasion and will be met by resistance, either passive or active. There are somethings that for whatever reason, even if the other person is more than capable of handling them, I've decided belong to me. That can be anything - from something as abstract as an idea to something as concrete as a spoon. And if someone tries to force it from me I will smite them. Yes, smite. My smiting may look different than some people's but it is smiting nonetheless.


These are thoughts that have been bubbling around in my mind for a little. I have seen talk about how INFjs are so passive and like to give up control and are so accommodating etc., and... um, no. Not always, anyway.

Well, if you feel like sharing, just give them half of the cookie.

[Christy B]

I have control issues when people try and get me to "share my feelings". I usually just tell them I am ok, even if I am not, or if I think they are being really pushy I don't say anything at all (go silent or physically leave the situation).

With physical things I will give someone my last dime if they ask for it. I have absolutely no backbone when if comes to defending "my stuff". It may bother me but I will still let that person have whatever they want from me. If they took/ or wanted to take something really important to me I will just let them have it, without any formal argument or resistance, but I may stop talking to them completely.

[Minde]

At a certain point, this gets beyond something that's type-related. People may differ regarding at what point and for what reasons they say "No, this is mine" and in the ferver of their response. But I think it's fairly universal that if someone says very seriously "that's enough; time out" and the other person persists with the unwanted action, people of any type would likely be annoyed or upset about that.

I agree: every type has the right and the capability to establish boundaries. It's healthy behavior and a sign of psychological health.

Yes, having boundaries and the ability to maintain them is a part of health, imo, not type. So saying that a whole type, INFjs in this case, don't have the ability to ever say "no" is fallacious. (Not that either of you are saying that - I'm just pointing that out.)

I don't think INFjs are particularly controlling. But any type is going to want at least some control over some things. I think what was said is that people act like INFjs are pushovers who are super accommodating and never assert control over anything. Which isn't the case.

Yes.

I think my sister's an INFj and she can be very uncompromising and unaccommodating with things that she doesn't approve of, doesn't like, or finds distasteful. She often appears very quiet, accepting, nice, etc. but she can become very firm or even hostile if she strongly disapproves of something going on around her (generally for moral reasons), or if she feels that someone is trying to place control over her (in which case they may lose all respect in her eyes). I think she has some very strong standards on acceptable and inacceptable behavior.

Yes, yes, especially the bolded part. Or if I feel something is unfair. I can get quite stubborn and contrary. Although, there isn't always a clear pattern to it.


Again, I'd like to say that it's not like I'm like that all the time. I can be quite accommodating and compliant and I admit that people can and have taken advantage of me. It can be really hard for me to say "no" sometimes (sometimes I don't even know that I need to say "no"). It's just that there are certain situations where it's just becomes too much or it means too much to me and I stop giving up control and even take action to keep it.

Actually, any type with conscious Se is going to be much more sensitive about where personal and territorial boundaries lie. It's just that Se ego types tend to push and manipulate the boundaries instead of keeping them rigid and predictable. I have a really awesome theory about this.

I'd like to hear it.

Well, if you feel like sharing, just give them half of the cookie.

???

[Lobo]

???

Well, you were talking about how you only allowed people to get control, and don't like it when they take it from you. Don't know why, but I thought it could have been talking about a cookie under your posession.

Nevermind, I was crazy at the time.

[yeves]

The latter, when opposed to the former, happens when I've said, "No, this is mine" and they keep going. That's like an invasion and will be met by resistance, either passive or active. There are somethings that for whatever reason, even if the other person is more than capable of handling them, I've decided belong to me. That can be anything - from something as abstract as an idea to something as concrete as a spoon. And if someone tries to force it from me I will smite them. Yes, smite. My smiting may look different than some people's but it is smiting nonetheless.

These are thoughts that have been bubbling around in my mind for a little. I have seen talk about how INFjs are so passive and like to give up control and are so accommodating etc., and... um, no. Not always, anyway.

Sorry I'm taking a quote from long time ago, but I have found your posts to be very insightful. What happens when you have to be around Se types? Do you eventually feel too tired and worn out having to protect against Se impositions and overrunning your boundaries? Or do you not see them trying to overreach until it's too late? I'm still confused about what is polr, if it's a blind spot or an indefensible weakness.

[Beautiful sky]

Se has nothing to do with control It's acquisition of space perception of static qualities of objects their color texturebetc...what a dumb ass thread and another terrible example of the past views about things that were held on this forum. For the record I find it hard to say no when the request comes in several ways

1. A good person asks for money...I will give it if I have it.
2. A user asks for money...I will not say "no" right out but will find ways around a no and look at their actions. I will judge them and think they are shameful and secretely saying "you are out to use me. Without shame you ask for money knowing that I'm a helpful person. I can't believe you would take this actio (here I judge them with the "would" word" and I will work around by saying "you can get a pay advance or go to this nonprofit for help.

These are just some ways that I handle these situations but it's not about Se it's about my Fi...what I have determined to be the moral qualties of the person...what is in their soul and their intentions from which I judge them

[Beautiful sky]

Please don't unearth any more of the past especially the world full of expat misconceptions drummed up steryotypes and fingervpointing...and give me moments of nausea. I have enough of that with an infected hand

[wacey]

Just chill man.

[Waster]

Please don't unearth any more of the past especially the world full of expat misconceptions drummed up steryotypes and fingervpointing...and give me moments of nausea. I have enough of that with an infected hand

How did you infect your hand?

[Beautiful sky]

How did you infect your hand?

A spider bite me and i paniced tried to clean th thiny infection but apparently it was a staff and all i did was cause it to spread. The pain that this has given me I don't wish upon my most hated humans. I heard the doctor ask me if I wanted "the good stuff" for it but didn't oblige because i thought I was dreaming it. Lol My nephew thinks that I'm spider woman now

[Beautiful sky]

Seriously though what the op thinks is se polr is really not type related. All human beings have objects that they love and have a difficult time parting with and things that they care about. Our inability to say no to giving someone your favorite pillow doesn't make you one type over the other. Maybe type may determine how you react. Yes EII have a difficult time because they walk away feeling as if the other person has been made so sad over something as meaningless and ridiculous as a pillow because afterall relationships are what is truly important. That feeling of seeing someone sad will cause them to say "oh gosh darn with it give it away already does it mean that much?" Other types can feel bad toi but not be as affected by those feelings thinking and treating others as people who exist independeny of themselves hence this reaction "aww i wish you could have that too." Unlike me..."i have one of those. I'll get it to you tomorrow. I can do without it you like it more." Personally I could care less about any and all possessions that I have right down to my last underwear. I just want ti be blessed with the kinds of relations that make my life and emotions full joyous because that is what I really care about.

[Waster]

A spider bite me and i paniced tried to clean th thiny infection but apparently it was a staff and all i did was cause it to spread. The pain that this has given me I don't wish upon my most hated humans. I heard the doctor ask me if I wanted "the good stuff" for it but didn't oblige because i thought I was dreaming it. Lol My nephew thinks that I'm spider woman now

Spider bites? Lol, never heard of one before. :v

[yeves]

Please don't unearth any more of the past especially the world full of expat misconceptions drummed up steryotypes and fingervpointing...and give me moments of nausea. I have enough of that with an infected hand

I like your hat in your photograph. It makes you look like you've just returned from a entomology expedition and have a degree in butterflies and spider studies.

[Esaman]

To new people. Ignoring Maritsa's socionic expertise is one of the stronger consensuses ever reached on this forum.
Minde's post looks good to me.

I'm still confused about what is polr, if it's a blind spot or an indefensible weakness.

It is area you conscious of getting or being forced into. Lacking ways of apprehension, operation and appreciation of it, you might feel like fish out of water and prefer that the area didn't exist. One might be equally limited/incompetent in the mobilizing but you enjoy the area and it being unconscious would not dwell on it.

Or do you not see them trying to overreach until it's too late?

Not all Se egos can be accused of overreaching, but they will rub one the wrong way anyway and one would be expecting it(One-Se PoLR).

[chemical]

It is not presented as blind - it's part of conscious mental functioning.

I do think the conscious/unconscious divides tend to be presented a little too black and white, and that it is less rigid in practice.

[Emmym]

Very much relate. I don't think the POLR is something we never use, rather it's just the function we "use" with the least confidence. It's one we prefer not to use and try to shelter ourselves from, but over time, with enough exposure, we can become better at it. But the process feels a bit like hell. On that note...

INFjs can even take control of group projects and be somewhat domineering if they think everyone else is a slacker. They might tend to just do the "hey, let me do this, because I know you are incompetent" sort of thing, but they can be leaders.

Yes. Particularly, once an EII has enough experience with being forceful in a particular area, they become extremely resentful of people who aren't being proactive about the specific thing they've learned to be proactive about. I'm like this, and so is one of my siblings, who is also an EII. On the surface, they're trying to be useful by inspiring the person to take more initiative even if it's painful. Deep down, they feel like they got the shorter end of the stick if they had to learn to suck it up and deal but someone else gets to remain inert and have things seemingly fall into place, which is what the EII would have wished things had been like for them.

And to get back on topic... very yes about control. If someone keeps pushing even after I tell them no, then they're betrayed my trust and probably won't get it back. I view it as a very clear demonstration of a lack of respect, and it's something I will remember as long as I know them (unless, of course, it's just something stupid that was meant without any harm).

[Beautiful sky]

Se is not force

[Beautiful sky]

For the one millionth time I will AGAIN give an example of what Se is. I am not very self aware person nor do I process things in immediate reality well. I was applying for job positions next to my SEE friend who is very aware of reality as her immediate senses are open keen aware and always taking in information. She happen to observe and watch my state of emotional agitation during this process and came away with some very real observations and said "don't sell yourself short" which is exactly what I was doing as I was unable to exert will but was too afraid to address as my psyche was concentrating on my emotions, confusions about what actions were right or worthy, she picked up the statics on my feelings and came away with the observation "she's not confident" my duals are confident an through talking about their ideas they are able to instill confident in othera. Though SEE is not my dual and her static observation only goes so far and she's often not telling me what to do, she is a good friend. Her positivist attitude encourages me to go for the gold. d

[golden]

For the one millionth time I will AGAIN give an example of what Se is. I am not very self aware person nor do I process things in immediate reality well. I was applying for job positions next to my SEE griend who is very aware of reality as her immediate snses are open keen aware and always taking in information. She happen to observe and watch mu state of emotional agitation durinh this process and came away with some very real observations and said"don't sell yourself short" which is exactly what I was going but was too afraid to address as my psyche was concentrating on my emotions, confusions about what actions were right or worthy, she picked up the statics on my feelings and came away with the observation "she's not confident" my duals are confident an through talking about their ideas they are able to instill confident in othera. Though SEE is not my dual and her static observation only goes so far and she's often not telling me what to do, she is a good friend. Her positivist attitude encourages me to go for the gold. d

For one time in my life I am going to agree with you, Maritsa. Se is not force, and Se egos are very good at modeling another person's state of being from physical cues, and giving clear and helpful feedback about it.

An Se base can be forceful, or not, and so can a lot of other people of various types.

I'm not sure that's what this thread is about. The word used is "control," which can be exerted with or without any obvious show of force. And I figure every type has ways of being controlling, and there's nothing wrong with that inherently.

[Minde]

Sorry I'm taking a quote from long time ago, but I have found your posts to be very insightful. What happens when you have to be around Se types? Do you eventually feel too tired and worn out having to protect against Se impositions and overrunning your boundaries? Or do you not see them trying to overreach until it's too late? I'm still confused about what is polr, if it's a blind spot or an indefensible weakness.

Hi, @yeves, thanks for the compliment. I wrote the OP awhile ago and chances are there was a specific event in my life that triggered this thread, which I don't remember. Generally speaking, the main point of INFjs not always being pushovers stands.

When I'm around Se types - it depends on the individual, their other ego function, maturity, and character. I don't have a lot of close Se-ego friends because after awhile my feelings of awkwardness and "exhaustion" become too much and I retreat. And consistent retreat from a relation doesn't promote extreme closeness all that much.

I feel like pointing out that Se-ego types don't always invade my boundaries like I describe in the OP. Some of them are actually very kind and sensitive, perceptive of when I start to feel uncomfortable or even of what I'm needing (they just can't always provide it, which is reasonable). In fact, often it is weak-Se types who do the worst damage in that sense (not knowing boundaries or understanding the finer points of control).

One way I think of PoLR is an area of information processing that you are aware of and understand in many ways, but can't and don't want to handle. So when you do, it's often either not enough or too much. And critique is painful. For myself, as an E9, I would expect myself to tend toward simple avoidance of it. Other types (both socionics and enneagram) might have different approaches.

Does that help at all? :-)

I consider myself a somewhat light user of socionics, and I'm sure lots of others could get more technical. But I'm happy to talk about my own experiences and relationships.

[golden]

I feel like pointing out that Se-ego types don't always invade my boundaries like I describe in the OP. Some of them are actually very kind and sensitive, perceptive of when I start to feel uncomfortable or even of what I'm needing (they just can't always provide it, which is reasonable). In fact, often it is weak-Se types who do the worst damage in that sense (not knowing boundaries or understanding the finer points of control).

What especially interests me in what you wrote is that (like I said in another thread), I see "Fi people" and "Fe people," and various other types, accuse one another of the same things.

For example, finding my boundaries crashed is the biggest complaint I have about interacting with some Fi types.

So I suspect that no type has tighter boundaries universally, but people draw boundaries around different things. Sometimes just different enough for confusion, and even offense, to result.

Another possibility is that not getting the responses that complement one's preferred functions leads to exerting more and more energy to evoke the responses. An impulse resulting in greater pressure and crossing boundaries in search of satisfaction.

[Pookie]

Actually, any type with conscious Se is going to be much more sensitive about where personal and territorial boundaries lie.

Static types are more sensitive about personal and territorial boundaries. Nice observation.

[Froody Blue Gem]

Can identify, I'm not in the least bit controlling but I highly dislike it when other people act bossy and controlling. People can indeed be good leaders and lead in a gentle way. But when people are pushy and insensitive about it, it rattles my jimmies. If it's mutual agreement, then I'm fine with the other person taking the lead.

When people assume I don't know how to do something so they decide to go and do it themselves. They could ask "do you need help?" rather than just jumping to conclusions. I am a pretty proactive person but I move at a snail's pace. I won't outright say it, sometimes I will take is passively. I may get passive aggressive if it goes on for a long time.

[WinnieW]

Can identify, I'm not in the least bit controlling but I highly dislike it when other people act bossy and controlling. People can indeed be good leaders and lead in a gentle way. But when people are pushy and insensitive about it, it rattles my jimmies. If it's mutual agreement, then I'm fine with the other person taking the lead.

I agree... I'm the same way... basically that's the reason why I think that is my vulnerable function.

[Beautiful sky]

INFjs can even take control of group projects and be somewhat domineering if they think everyone else is a slacker. They might tend to just do the "hey, let me do this, because I know you are incompetent" sort of thing, but they can be leaders.

i am a leader not can be. Motherhood has clarified that lol

[Lord Pixel]

My roommate wanted me to drive him somewhere and I told him I would give him a ride later, he got impatient and jokingly grabbed my keys and walked off, this made me so angry that I just kicked him out of my room. But this def flt like an example of someone trying to take control, especially of my things.

I also physically cannot stand direct commands. Like I can feel an internal physical resistance when people say "Look at this!" "Do this!" " Come here!" "Hurry up!". I secretly resent these commands. Feels like my autonomy is being arrested.

[The Reality Denialist]

Avoidance or non confrontational outburst/passive detachment, quite possibly.