Quadrable Elation
So has anyone here experienced the supposed elation of being in a quadra? Please share your joys, we want to experience them at least vicariously. (and to know whether or not this whole socionics thing has a bigger payoff than just finding your dual/soulmate...)
see it's very hard to find a dual, because in practice (not theory)
each individual is a combination of all the 16 types in different percentages.
i for example am 17% INFp, 16%ENTj, 16% ENFj, than ESFp and ENFp in the next place... (according to an exciting new test called Full Map of Personality).
so a real dual will have to be 17% ESTp, 16% ISFj, 16 % ISTj -- catch my drift?
How many people are there with that type? Not many. And when you find one, you may discover they don't have a good attitude or whatever.
So don't take this intertype relationships thing too seriously...
My whole family is Alfa quadrant including my GF, I am Beta Q. I don't get along with Betas very well, except for ISTj. ESTp is a terrible person, narcissistic, dishonest, domineering. I get alkong ok with INTps, ENFps, ISFps, and ISTjs.
Intresting. I have met many ISFps and I have liked them all. All of them make me feel good. Unfortunately I ´haven't had any very close dual relationship.
Where can we do this test,Lion Kaminsky?
I can see how you could divide a test this way, it might actual show parts of your preference of functions(personality) or as some people like to call it, subtypes. But seriously, it's easy to find a dual.Originally Posted by LK
if your main type is very pronounced.
the test is on international socionics site of Dmitri Lytov i believe
So if I'm 50% INTj and INTp, my functional order directly opposes itself? No, that just doesn't make any sense. Even if I'm 50% ENTp and 50% INTj, it still doesn't make any sense, as I I have two essential problems, two essential opinions which remain based firmly on the ground and stubborn, even if my second function is suppose to see such a function flexibly.
the quadra elation
yes, i have experienced the elation!
I work in a store with a small staff, only six people are currently employed there and five of them are "alpha quadra" members.
two male ENTp's an ISFp male, ESFj male ISTp female and an INTj female. i put the sex in there because i think that it does shape the interactions a great deal(sometimes jealousy comes up since the INTj is so cute). The elation, to be quite honest, isnt something you necessarily would notice. On the occasions where there is a complete and undisturbed quadra there is alot of conversation and everyone seems to run free, like a bunch of little kids. that's the funny thing about it, we don't get any "Work" done, but rather exchange alot of goofy ideas and spend alot of time doodling or conversing about various things. If, however, work needs to be done, we have no trouble mobilizing. We think as a whole and we have the same general priorities.
-what i find most interesting is the amount of lasting insight two duals can have on one another. my boss(ISFp) and i(ENTp), spend alot of time drawing. He tends to excel at the essences of things, such as an attention to details and depth, explaining his techniques using bold and descriptive words. I tend to focus on abstract and often vague ideas and describe and draw these ideas in a more or less incomplete manner, focusing on developing ideas off of ideas, rather than finishing each one. he definitely develops a finished project. It seems as though we support one another and build off one another. the rate at which this happens is amazing!
-I can't speak for the other dual pair but as a whole it seems that we all can truly glow when we're together. If, say, the ISFp leaves me alone with the INTj the mood hits a brick wall instantaneously. But as our experience as a whole builds, amazingly, we learn to cope with this since the strengths of the activity partners rub off on us.
if im confused about something, or my mind is drifting, the INTj immediately steps in helps out. If a customer comes in with a baby i need not feel the dread, since the ISFp has no trouble talking baby talk and entertaining customers. The ESFj is a bit more organized and alot nicer than i am, which helps, but the best quality about him is he is just fun to be around.
Im not going to go on forever about this but i will say this:
-There IS a change in mood, although it just feels natural so you might not notice it. You just get really happy all the sudden. better than any drug- not as intense but in the end you always feel rewarded.
-It isn't a coincidence that the staff is mostly of the alpha quadra. I like to look at the store as an open system- employees come in and go out with time, but some "stick" better than others. The information just falls into place because we are all naturally drawn to one another.
-I feel like a genuinely better person than i was before i started working there.
so, to conclude:
this stuff has GOT to go mainstream. it can solve alot of social problems and developmental issues with people. being in a complete quadra feels very natural, almost like its just "supposed to be".
That's the most stirring testimonial I've heard on this board. I agree, the impact on society could be amazing. Imagine school systems that sort by quadra at an early age, slowly introducing students to more types, first the related quadra, then the unrelated quadra, then the opposing quadra. Just think what it would do to children's level of self-esteem.
The only drawback I could see is if people started taking it too seriously, or began to become prideful of their particular type or quadra, or got turned down for employment because they were the wrong type. Shallow understanding of types could be worse than no understanding.
education
That's definitely a good idea. If children were organized into quadras it would probably help them to better appreciate people and the qualities each person posesses.
As you said, if each quadra were exposed to the other quadras gradually the insecurities that they risk developing probably wouldn't be so much of a problem(ideally) since they have the presence of other quadra members to make up for their weak points.
Since each individuals insecurities would be strengthened over time they might not be as afraid to approach other quadra members on their own, either.
how practical this would be i dont know- depends on type distribution, funding, family atmosphere etc... but it might be an interesting thing for someone to experiment with.
but i agree about the possibility of misunderstanding or discrimination. ideally it wouldnt happen, but ideals are never fully met.
so maybe the best way is the natural way- to let all of the "information" fall into place on its own. strength through suffering.
Coming from the snooty Delta - and by now I am sure - I would say that the major difficulties children face when dealing with each other at school usually have more to do with differences in intelligence, motivation and stability of personality, and I see plenty of people from the same Quadrable who do not get on with each other so I remain sceptical. The tendency to identify with any randomly chosen group is a very basic human quality and the propensity to do so probably partly innate. And once the categories have been firmly established in early childhood they often tend to stick: so do we really want to bring up life long socionics addicts, are there not enough of us already? And to get back to my old hobby-horse, as long as there are no fully reliable methods of typing available this all seems kind of far-fetched. ..
informational space
Obviously the idea is far-fetched but its still a good one. And even if it doesn't work in gradeschool it can most certainly work in the workplace.
We all exist in informational space. People also generate informational space through their behavior. Socionics or any psychometric test measures through observation of questionairres how we behave in the space we exist in. Some people, when in a closed environment, become disorganized, some people, in an open environment, become overwhelmed. does this really have anything to do with intelligence, or even personality? I don't think so, it just has to do with how the body generally (manifestly over time) interacts with the informational space that it occupies. if the informational space you occupy allows you to comfortably "fit" than you will be able to behave naturally and won't have any unnescessary obstacles to overcome(in my case an INFj- just kidding :wink: ). If one's type is entirely inborn(maybe it is, maybe it isnt) than this would mean that a child could develop under academic supervision in an evironment with minimal distractions and neuroses. Being in a full quadra is just a good feeling. The one i have been in has people of varying "intelligences" and interests- but we always find something to talk about, and we always find solutions to problems. No one is ever excluded.
Obviously this leads to other questions such as "what type would the teacher be?" or "how can you type ID a little kid?" Im sure someone could find an answer.
I'm not trying to argue, but isnt the informational aspect of socionics fundamental? otherwise it's really just another MBTI. why shouldn't we try to apply elements of socionics into education! or at least test it. why ignore the evidence? why not at least try to put it to a good use? where there is a will there is a way.
Unless there's a signifcant amount of money impeding that will.
yeah, too bad.
Puting peaople into quadra isn't new idea. This idea is called the Socionism. It's Aushras idea, that we people, should be living in socioncs, which of course means ,that each of us lives in it's quadra.
It's just fantastic idea, that idea of a socion.
it just means that in 50% of situations you operate as an INTj and in 50% as an INTp.
there is magnetism between the members of the same quadra.
but that can be a problem just as it may be an asset.
It may be hard to control the distance in the relationship and keep it in proportion to the level of trust and respect you have for eachother.
you may end up staying with a partner not out of love, but only because you cover eachother's weaknesses so well.
What is love?
If you are 50% INTJ and 50% INTP then your dual would be 50% ESFJ and 50% ESFP according to your theory. What if in all the situations in which you act as INTJ the dual acts as ESFP and when you act as INTP they act as ESFJ? Your theory is bogus because "dual" can never mean dual it means dual or conflict even if you have the "right percentages." In conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about if you seriously believe what you are saying and the sad part is there is nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise.
Don't cop off my arguement.
Ok, we'll, it's not the EXACT same thing, but, meh. I'm just being a baby.
Sorry MysticSonic didn't want to steal your thunder or recieve an answer just wanted to complain about the ludicrousness of that theory. Sorry mate by the way I finally surpassed you in posts.
I noticed.
Sorry, but how? I belong to Alfa. I am Stat Analyst (oy!) and work in the group of ENTP - he hired me, INTP, ISTJ and me -INTJ.But seriously, it's easy to find a dual.
My family INFJ -husband and INTJ (2 of them ) my kids.
I am screaming in silence withoutand
. At least someone with a strong
You're married, you have kids, it's a WHOLE different story.
"If you are 50% INTJ and 50% INTP then your dual would be 50% ESFJ and 50% ESFP according to your theory. What if in all the situations in which you act as INTJ the dual acts as ESFP and when you act as INTP they act as ESFJ?"
yes, there would be situations in which a person that seems to be your dual is in fact your conflictor. should we bend reality to fit a theory? life just does not fall so neatly within a framework of a theory.
"Your theory is bogus because "dual" can never mean dual it means dual or conflict even if you have the "right percentages."
it is not my theory, it is the latest trend within socionics, after the researches performed Talanov, the neurophysiologist who developed the Full Map of Personality test. it is also the position of C.G. Jung if you bother to understand what he wrote rather than freevolously interpret it.
"In conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about if you seriously believe what you are saying and the sad part is there is nothing anyone can say to convince you otherwise."
i always find it comic when my interlocutor starts verbal mudslinging because he is unsure of the logic of his arguments. you can't abuse people that don't share your opinions.
I much rather see Pedro the Human, than Perdo the Lion.
3 things:
Pedro the Lion is the name of a band I like.
The theory does not work because it describes nothing. It's a meaningless statement because a person is never anything. They are not an "x" they are a "{x^2}/x" or an anti-derivative of one. Those things are not necessarily the same as x outside a given context so they say nothing about the nature of x. The theory would just be reduced to making observations about people which can be done without type theory.
Sorry I attacked you... that was rude and I apologize. I can be an ass sometimes but I still don't agree with you.
What you put into it is what you'll get out of it.
But that's my point don't you see that many people are going to put crazy crap into it? I fear what happened with MBTI will follow if you pursue this...
Many people put crazy crap into Jung too. Jung has been totally misinterpreted. In fact most Socionists preach exactly the opposite of what he advocated, using him as their reference.
I have no time for negativity... I am too busy devising a practical tool to achieve my goals (and if it can be useful to someone else, well why not? I can even benefit from an exchange of ideas). Frankly I couldn't care less what others do with the tool.
People can always find something to distort, if not this than something else. See most people do not love the truth, they just love what they want it to be. So they see things that they want to see, not the things that are there.
But we would be insulting humanity if we were to say that there aren't any people who will put any idea to good use. There are plenty of big boys and girls out there.
Hmm... maybe. But the problem is there would be no way to refute their perspective because all would be equally valid. I think socionics would end up being swallowed up by computer modeling. After such a glorious beginning it'd be sad to see an old friend come to such an ignomious end. Tell me about your theory please so I can understand it better. I really want to know what the reference points are if any.
Well… I noticed that type relations do not always work. So I am trying to understand why. They work in theory, and they work in practice (about thirty percent of the time), when the psychological type is strongly defined.
But is a strongly pronounced type healthy? Jung wrote: “Weak instincts are one of the prime causes of the development of the habitual one-sided attitude, pathological cases of this kind are almost always people who deviate from the familial type, and, in consequence no longer find sufficient security in their inherited instinctual function”.
Talanov’s research team found (from the results of the Full Map of Personality test) that the majority of people do not have a very pronounced dominant type.
So I think the Full Map of Personality can be useful to make some guesses about type relations adjustments. For example If my score is 17%INFp, 16% ENFj. It might mean that Activity partner is better for me than Duality partner.
According to Filatova’s “Socionics of Intimate Relationships”, based on many factors discussed in the book, Dual relations are awarded a score of 24 points, (for INFp), and Activity – 23 points. Only one point difference. However, lately I’ve felt more comfortable with activity partners than dual partners.
Might it be because my Activity partner is ALSO my “second dual”? It may sound illogical. But the gist of my theory is that reality is much more complicated than what we can imagine. That’s why I am not dismissing the possible value of the Full Map Of Personality test. By no means am I trying to say that it is a proven fact.
I am making an educated guess that there is merit to it. I may be making a wrong bet, I may not be. One thing I can say is that my observational function -- Ne+, same as ENTp's is fairly good at sniffing out valid theories.
I am not a Scientist. I am a Lover. Science for me is a strategic tool. Making a mistake is a luxury that is a bit too expensive for me to afford. My motto is "whatever works".
And this would explain why I am also 16%ENTj.
Do you know those Russian dolls where you can open every doll and there is a smaller and smaller doll inside of it? That archetype must stand for something.
The INFp is the last baby doll, that does not open. That is your main type.
Lev, this theory of yours, actually theory of socionists, is interesting. I tested out as ENTP at Lõtovs test, but I am not so really extraverted, which makes me to think, that I am INTJ actually. Your talkings makes sence, I might be some 20%INTJ and 19% ENTP, or something like that. And I do find it more easy to be with ISFPs, than ESFJs (the last ones are little bit too sarcastic and sulphur spiting, but I get this we're becoming one with feeling with an ESFJ).
I do not doubt the power of strong Ne something that I think I do not have (in the same sense at least) due to the fact that for meis primary. On the doll thing I was working on something similar but more basic. If all this is is a "shell theory" that leaves (absolute) types intact I could see potential in it. I've was working on the exact same thing with a friend but I think the way you explained it was misleading.... To be honest I have not seen major contradictions in the intertype relations. I've seen "blips" that disturb the surface but the pattern always goes back to normal. I have a few INTP friend of various "subtypes" or mixtures of functional strength or whatever you want to call it and their relations with people we share in common follow the pattern of socionics relations. I think the relations are interpreted much too woodenly (the problem of MBTI) and thus it seems like the relationship theory is crap but the overarching pattern stays constant (from my obervations thus far). I actually believe the unconscious weak points to be the fundamentals of personality thus an INTJ is "fundamentally" an ISFP... I've had a hell of a time trying to objectify it however it might be awhile before I can piece it together.
On an inter-type relations note:
I think you are saying that you are ENFP or INFJ (under the "traditional" model)? Ie strong Ne with Fi? That is what my comment about feeling Cone's frustration with INFJs was partly about. My original post in that section was going to be "*Takes a big whiff of air* I think I smell ENFP" but I didn't want to push your buttons. I see all
Lastly, I will be away... spring break!
No... my observational Ne is scientific, not humanitarian.
The observational channel is 7th in model A. The observational function has the same power as the creative function (2nd), but is unconscious.
In Youry's model (Power and the Socion article) however it is paired with the program function, and is conscious. He calls it "Active Will +" if I am not mistaken.
ENFp's Ne mostly focuses on people and the humanitarian sphere. My Ne is a detector of scientific ideas that may be useful to me.
ENFp and ESFp are in the 4th and 5th place on my type ladder, after INFp, ENFj, and ENTj. At least that's the way it was in 2004.
I did have a higher ENFp score when I was living in Los Angeles, because the integral type of L.A. is ENFp.
Thanks for the compliments by the way, I like you too.
Yes, the biggest enthusiasts of duality are INTjs and ESFjs! I wonder why.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote