Fdg

[Elena]

Are all Italians like this? They can just go forever? Yes mate. I am getting myself a Latino chick.

Lol well yes they tend to be exuberant I would say. But I don't know many people who are as energetic as me. It is sometimes not as great as it sounds believe me lol.

I know PotatoSpirit already asked, and I know I don't live in Italy, but can I have your number?

Wouldn't long-distance be a bit expensive?

[Elena]

Woah, woah. Hold up. I did not claim that, nor was that even something I was contemplating. From the limited posts you've posted, I know you're not stupid, and I hope you continue to post here. You'd be a welcome member here, despite what Joy thinks you are, or what she thinks she is in relation to the forum.

Thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.

I personally don't have a problem with Joy. A lot of people do however, most prominently (in my eyes) Gilly and Fabio. They both think she's pretentious. She came onto EIDB (Fabio will tell you about it) a few months ago asking about her type and there was this massive hostility coming from Fabio about Joy. I was questioning why he was acting like this. I think perhaps there's something he senses that I don't about her. He's probably more effective in a certain function than I am. Or both he and Gilly are effective in seeing how some people are fuckers, and I am not.

Ah I see. Why do you think you are not effective at it? Personally I always have these senses about people and what they are like. I can never prove these things but I always turn out to be right later so I place much trust in them. I am surprised when people tell me they can't do the same and it would be interesting to understand why. You say you are ESTp so do you think this is your Fi polr?

Anyway, I'm supposed to have Fi PoLR, so I s'pose I can talk about them. Yes, discojoe and Joy are in a relationship. She stole him.

Hmm okay. Well I don't want to gossip about them. I was just trying to confirm. He seems to be being hateful to me as well and I don't know why.

[Elena]

your assumption that you understand socionics is quite laughable.

Great another jackass trying to tell me what I understand. Maybe you and Joy should go be duals. Screw off.

[Elena]

elena, you have no idea what you're talking about at all. you do not understand socionics like you think you do. i don't know whether this shit that people are saying about you being a typical beta aristocratic EIE is correct or not, but it is extremely obvious that you're running around with either an incredibly inflated ego or utter naivete.

slow down and listen to people. and perhaps take a look at parts of rick's site, rick's typings, and rick's blog to see what socionics is actually about; he tends to be very eloquent and lucid in his explanations.

I think for myself and I don't care who is called an expert or not. I take what people say for what is said not who its coming from.

I have read Rick's site and there is some good information. But he is just a person to me and I do not see why you should assert that his opinion means more? He has studied this subject much I am sure but that by itself means nothing to me. Like I said I take what is said for what it is worth and I treat his opinions no differently than I do other opinions. I will always only accept what makes sense to me.

I will never apologize for that and I will never stop. Call it ego if you want. When someone says something worth listening then I will listen.

Funny that there is a big hypocrisy where people are going to call me Aristocratic. Then themselves be Aristocratic and deem that I should defer my opinions to selected others.

[eunice]

Elena, what you have written really makes sense. I have liked your posts so far.

FDG should introduce more of his friends to the forum.

[Elena]

that would make a good deal of sense, along with Elena's apparent fondness for snegledmaca's posts.

What makes a good deal of sense?

[XoX]

Elena, how do you feel about people who change their "type diagnosis" often before reaching a "final" conclusion?

[Elena]

Elena, how do you feel about people who change their "type diagnosis" often before reaching a "final" conclusion?

What do you mean?

[XoX]

What do you mean?

If someone one day makes an argument that you are ENFj and then two weeks from that a different argument that places you as an ENTj and then finally makes yet one more argument that you are really an ISFj and settles with that then does it make you lose confidence in that person's capability to argument? Do you think this person's credibility is severely hampered by jumping from conclusion to conclusion like that or do you instead prefer to focus only on their latest argument as if the previous typings and arguments didn't even exist?

[Elena]

If someone one day makes an argument that you are ENFj and then two weeks from that a different argument that places you as an ENTj and then finally makes yet one more argument that you are really an ISFj and settles with that then does it make you lose confidence in that person's capability to argument? Do you think this person's credibility is severely hampered by jumping from conclusion to conclusion like that or do you instead prefer to focus only on their latest argument as if the previous typings and arguments didn't even exist?

Yes it does make me lose confidence in their credibility. I take into view everything that has been said. If they say what they mean and then cannot stand by what they say and are flopping all over the place like that then I think that person has no business making arguments for anything. They should first become certain about their own certainty to so speak and not trying to be certain about anyone else until then.

[Expat]

What??? That is absurd and not what I was trying to do AT ALL. Something like that would never even enter my mind to do and I don't care about social roles. I just don't like when people are mean. I found her comment degrading to me as a person and hurtful. Then I decided I did not like Joy and that was all. When people assume things about me that are not true, I cannot help but take it as such a personal vandalization of me.

Well, to say things like "you are not very important" is pretty much the same as saying "who do you think you are", isn't it? So you're essentially putting her down in the social roles in this exchange here. Otherwise I don't know why you even chose that kind of phrasing. I don't know if you care about social roles in the common-sense use of the term.

Also, consider this -- just like you are confident enough in your knowledge of the enneagram to tell Phaedrus he should revise his understanding of what 7s are like, other people are confident enough in their knowledge of socionics to tell you that you should revise your understanding of socionics.

That's pretty much what niffweed was saying, but in an undiplomatic way.

As for Aristocracy -- socionics Aristocracy has nothing - nothing at all - to do with "selected few" who should be listened to or not due to arbitrary reasons (which seems to be what you were saying).

So, if I say that "you really have to revise your understanding of socionics Aristocracy", I am "assuming" nothing whatsoever about you. I am reaching a logical conclusion with base on my observations.

[XoX]

Yes it does make me lose confidence in their credibility. I take into view everything that has been said. If they say what they mean and then cannot stand by what they say and are flopping all over the place like that then I think that person has no business making arguments for anything. They should first become certain about their own certainty to so speak and not trying to be certain about anyone else until then.

So is this correct: You highly value consistency of opinion. You think that person should "silently" accumulate information until they are absolutely sure of their opinion, then make a definite logical conclusion and consistently stick to that conclusion against all opposition. This kind of person seems independent, trustworthy and earns your respect.

Is this also correct: You value people with strong willpower and who seem "unshakable". People who have a clear logically consistent opinions and who know what they want. People who never say "I'm not sure what I want" when asked. Calm and polite people who are not openly "aggressive" but willing to confront whoever needs to be confronted in order to defend their position or achieve their goal. People who don't confront people aggressively "for fun" but only when there is a clear logical reason to it. When situation really calls for it they don't back down one inch. People who are not that extroverted or expressive in your normal daily situations but who still can laugh out loud, be expressive and have fun in the right situation and "party" atmosphere.

[Expat]

Yes it does make me lose confidence in their credibility. I take into view everything that has been said. If they say what they mean and then cannot stand by what they say and are flopping all over the place like that then I think that person has no business making arguments for anything. They should first become certain about their own certainty to so speak and not trying to be certain about anyone else until then.

But how do you see, then, Fabio's flip-flopping in his socionics type? Doesn't that make you question his competence in talking about socionics, or about your type? This is not an attempt to put Fabio down in any way. The point is that he seems to view such things differently.

[CuriousSoul]

Elena, how do you feel about people who change their "type diagnosis" often before reaching a "final" conclusion?

I hope I for one have learned not to make "final conclusions."
It may be an indication of intuition as PoLR though.
One would like to know things for sure, and when true certainty is not available it is tempting to at least believe in one's hunches.

Personally I do not see any value in sticking to one's opinion per se though.
To me it is sheer foolishness not to change one's opinion if in light of new information the old typing starts to appear incorrect.
The truth exists independent of any of us.

[aestrivex]

elena is hereby ignored.

[Ezra]

What??? That is absurd and not what I was trying to do AT ALL. Something like that would never even enter my mind to do and I don't care about social roles. I just don't like when people are mean. I found her comment degrading to me as a person and hurtful. Then I decided I did not like Joy and that was all. When people assume things about me that are not true, I cannot help but take it as such a personal vandalization of me.

Well he was actually was nice to me. Big difference.

Elena, don't take this the wrong way, but this, to me, is someone reacting to Fe. Even if you're not adept in Fe or have it as a first function, I think you're Fe dual seeking. One of the two at least.

I just do not see Fe being a first function in me. I also cannot see myself being in Beta. I have a brother who is ISTj and we are not much in common. We get along ok but there is always some distance, for we are different about what we do and have different motivations. Usually there is not a lot to talk about. I can see why an ENFj would be good for him though, that he would be very "sparked by the kind of pep they seem to have. Yet for me that same thing makes me feel... insecure? I am just never sure how to respond really.

Can you please explain why you don't see Fe as a first function or yourself as Beta, leaving your brother out of it? It's just so I can get a better understanding of you as a person.

elena, you have no idea what you're talking about at all. you do not understand socionics like you think you do. i don't know whether this shit that people are saying about you being a typical beta aristocratic EIE is correct or not, but it is extremely obvious that you're running around with either an incredibly inflated ego or utter naivete.

slow down and listen to people. and perhaps take a look at parts of rick's site, rick's typings, and rick's blog to see what socionics is actually about; he tends to be very eloquent and lucid in his explanations.

Thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.

Elena, seriously, I'm not trying to offend you in any way, but learn to know what is good advice and what is not, regardless of who it comes from. If this quote was in reply to the above quote from niffweed, we would be getting somewhere in beginning to understand you. As it stands, you actually sound like me when I first came to the forum, except maybe even less receptive. Understand that niffweed is actually trying to help you, as harsh and tactless as his words are. They really, really are worth paying heed to. Get past the cruelty, and see what he and others are offering you.

Ah I see. Why do you think you are not effective at it? Personally I always have these senses about people and what they are like. I can never prove these things but I always turn out to be right later so I place much trust in them. I am surprised when people tell me they can't do the same and it would be interesting to understand why. You say you are ESTp so do you think this is your Fi polr?

Possibly. I think it could be related to Ne though (something which I am not good at); potential qualities of others and considerations of possibilities. I tend to go off hard facts in making decisions, whereas it seems you prefer to first get a general feel of the person and decide using that. I'm not sure that you're Ne valuing, but you could well be adept in it; it may be that you have it as a 7th or 8th function.

Hmm okay. Well I don't want to gossip about them. I was just trying to confirm. He seems to be being hateful to me as well and I don't know why.

Now you have your answer. He's acting in defence of Joy. Again though, try and see the human element behind it; a couple of people bonding means that they will act in defence with one another. It's nothing personal.

[Joy]

Three things, Elena.

First of all, I did try to give you information. Go back and look for what I asked you about temperaments, the long description of a type, and the vocabulary from the wikisocion.

Secondly, the way you describe my misunderstanding of you if very, very similar to how I feel when when certain people (kristiina particularly) write something about what they think I'm doing or what my motivations are. It doesn't bother me, but it is indeed absurd in my mind that anyone could misunderstand me so much. Perhaps this is a quality of look a like relations?

Thirdly, do you speak Russian? I ask because if you do, you're at an awesome advantage. If not, you should pay a bit more attention to the information on Rick's site. I'm not saying that his interpretations are all 100% accurate (there's been at least one time when I've disagreed with something he'd written there), but overall it's an absolutely invaluable source of information for the English speaking Socionics community. Basically, while I agree that it is wise to be wary of just blindly believing anything you read, it is unwise to ignore the largest source of information on a subject (that's in a language you can read) unless you have a specific reason to think it's inaccurate. Blindly rejecting a source of information is just as foolish blinding believing it.

[Ezra]

Thirdly, do you speak Russian? I ask because if you do, you're at an awesome advantage. If not, you should pay a bit more attention to the information on Rick's site. I'm not saying that his interpretations are all 100% accurate (there's been at least one time when I've disagreed with something he'd written there)

But does this mean he's inaccurate? Or does it simply mean you believe he's incorrect?

[aut0]

I think that Elena is a clone of my drama-queen ENFj brother, (I don't mean that as an insult, despite the drama-queen line, as I like my brother a good deal ) but he starts arguments where there was none before. And I'm going to venture out and guess that you won't lose your negative feelings of anyone in this thread until they apologize and admit that they were wrong and you were right.

In any case, I don't think anyone intended to say that you were dumb or to blindly follow their words as fact, but someone like Rick who regularly attends (holds?) discussions about socionics and is around other socionists would be considered a fairly reliable source of information if you can't speak or don't live in or around Russia. His website is http://socionics.us/ (if you've already seen it you can ignore it.)

You probably have some understanding of socionics if you could determine that you were ENTj without using FDG, so that means something. Anyway, ENFj isn't that far off from ENTj (since they are look-a-likes), and leading doesn't equal being loud and obnoxious. Anyway, have fun.

And FWIW, I don't think that FDG's Beta, I think that he's a Gamma extrovert, and I'm more inclined to think that he has strong . So, ESFp would be my vote if I had to choose between ENTj and ESFp.

[Joy]

But does this mean he's inaccurate? Or does it simply mean you believe he's incorrect?

I recall one specific thing, a small thing, right now. Overall I'd say he's very accurate/correct.

[Wittmont]

I think that Elena is a clone of my drama-queen ENFj brother, (I don't mean that as an insult, despite the drama-queen line, as I like my brother a good deal ) but he starts arguments where there was none before. And I'm going to venture out and guess that you won't lose your negative feelings of anyone in this thread until they apologize and admit that they were wrong and you were right.

In any case, I don't think anyone intended to say that you were dumb or to blindly follow their words as fact, but someone like Rick who regularly attends (holds?) discussions about socionics and is around other socionists would be considered a fairly reliable source of information if you can't speak or don't live in or around Russia. His website is http://socionics.us/ (if you've already seen it you can ignore it.)

You probably have some understanding of socionics if you could determine that you were ENTj without using FDG, so that means something. Anyway, ENFj isn't that far off from ENTj (since they are look-a-likes), and leading doesn't equal being loud and obnoxious. Anyway, have fun.

And FWIW, I don't think that FDG's Beta, I think that he's a Gamma extrovert, and I'm more inclined to think that he has strong . So, ESFp would be my vote if I had to choose between ENTj and ESFp.

ENFj and ESFp would be a relationship of benefit/request. Elena and FDG say they are identicals. At the very least I do think they are in the same quadra. I find this case very fascinating. Not the least since one of my best friends happens to be a girl who speaks Italian as her first language (lots of Italian linage), works as a psychologist, is extremely active and barely sleeps. And, I have typed her as ENFj. These similarities prove nothing of course, and I haven't made up my mind one way or the other about Elena or FDG. But since I do suspect they are in the same quadra I should say that I agree with many others here that it seems unlikely that Elena is ENTj. Elena doesn't really make ENTj style arguments I agree, when she says that she has strong intuivite feelings about people that rarely go wrong I must say that is a rare thing for an NT type to say. Now again Elena's comment is only one comment and nothing to make an entire typing on.

But little things like that, and the way Elena's style of argument, using F arguments, had at least three NT's, and others here, voicing scepticism towards the ENTj typing for Elena, makes me also wonder about the ENTj typing for Elena. And if Elena is ENFj beta, and not gamma, FDG probably also belongs in beta. If FDG is ESTp, and I know he doesn't think so (but imho ENTj for FDG is another hmmm), Elana and FDG would be activity partners which would make more sense, based on what they have said, than benefit (that is not even close to identical).

(Just my musings really)

[Expat]

I'm starting to think that it's better just to be skeptical of the "oh we must be identicals" argument, generally speaking.

[Elena]

Well, to say things like "you are not very important" is pretty much the same as saying "who do you think you are", isn't it? So you're essentially putting her down in the social roles in this exchange here. Otherwise I don't know why you even chose that kind of phrasing. I don't know if you care about social roles in the common-sense use of the term.

How many times must I resay it? Your stubborness on this is frustrating and so is everyone elses. Her tone was condescending as if she was putting herself above me, it does not take an idiot to see this. It has nothing to do with social roles in my mind. That you insist on see it that way says more about you than it does about me.

Also, consider this -- just like you are confident enough in your knowledge of the enneagram to tell Phaedrus he should revise his understanding of what 7s are like, other people are confident enough in their knowledge of socionics to tell you that you should revise your understanding of socionics.

Nobody asked what my understanding was before they leaped over me and made accusations about my understanding. That is what I addressed. Don't be so blind. I asked Phaedrus what his POV was when I addressed him to see what his understanding was. I am being receptive here.

That's pretty much what niffweed was saying, but in an undiplomatic way.

As for Aristocracy -- socionics Aristocracy has nothing - nothing at all - to do with "selected few" who should be listened to or not due to arbitrary reasons (which seems to be what you were saying).

NO, that is what other people were saying. Niffweed and Joy explicitly made the insinuation that I was being Aristocratic for those reasons that I mentioned. You are implying the same.

So, if I say that "you really have to revise your understanding of socionics Aristocracy", I am "assuming" nothing whatsoever about you. I am reaching a logical conclusion with base on my observations.

Observe more then. Your conclusion is preemptive and fallacy.

[Expat]

How many times must I resay it? Your stubborness on this is frustrating and so is everyone elses. Her tone was condescending as if she was putting herself above me, it does not take an idiot to see this. It has nothing to do with social roles in my mind. That you insist on see it that way says more about you than it does about me..

You see, you're simply taking for granted that this is how everyone operates, especially when you say "it does not take an idiot to see this". You can't even conceive that Joy, or niffweed, or myself, could have other motivations - when in fact, people do. "Putting herself above me" is precisely what I mean with "social roles"; if you don't like it being called that, it changes nothing.

Accusations of "stubborness" go both ways, you know.

[Elena]

So is this correct: You highly value consistency of opinion. You think that person should "silently" accumulate information until they are absolutely sure of their opinion, then make a definite logical conclusion and consistently stick to that conclusion against all opposition. This kind of person seems independent, trustworthy and earns your respect.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It is more complex than that. Sometimes your opinion is instant, sometimes not. Sometimes when you know things you just know and there is not a logical reason, and sometimes there is.

It's okay to be wrong as long as you are open-minded enough to see why you were wrong and admit it. As long as we learn from our mistakes and always seek what is correct with reality that is all that matters to me. It is when a person is not observant and continues to yield opinions that are very arbitrary and deny reality, that they would lose credibility to me.

Are you trying to fit me into some textbook description?

Is this also correct: You value people with strong willpower and who seem "unshakable". People who have a clear logically consistent opinions and who know what they want. People who never say "I'm not sure what I want" when asked. Calm and polite people who are not openly "aggressive" but willing to confront whoever needs to be confronted in order to defend their position or achieve their goal. People who don't confront people aggressively "for fun" but only when there is a clear logical reason to it. When situation really calls for it they don't back down one inch. People who are not that extroverted or expressive in your normal daily situations but who still can laugh out loud, be expressive and have fun in the right situation and "party" atmosphere.

I like people that are intelligent and wise. Anything else can go either way. They can be quiet or loud. Obnoxious or polite. Aggresive or shy. None of that is necessary to be some way over another. It is people of true insight I always desire most.

You sound like you are trying to find evidence that I seek an ISTj dual?

[Elena]

But how do you see, then, Fabio's flip-flopping in his socionics type? Doesn't that make you question his competence in talking about socionics, or about your type? This is not an attempt to put Fabio down in any way. The point is that he seems to view such things differently.

I have been critical of him about this some yes. While he has flip-flopped some it hasn't been without good reason as far as I can tell, so I am not terribly critical. Plus Fabio is very much not like this is in most other respects of his life. It is the people that "waffle" about things without any cause or reason and seem to lack insight on anything, who's opinions I refuse to trust. People like that seem too irrational and blind to me.

Also, let me make it clear (hopefully once and for all) that my opinion on my own type is not at all influenced just because Fabio told me I was ENTj. If I say that Fabio and I are identicals it is because -I- am saying so. Not because he said so.

[Elena]

Elena, don't take this the wrong way, but this, to me, is someone reacting to Fe. Even if you're not adept in Fe or have it as a first function, I think you're Fe dual seeking. One of the two at least.

If someone is nice to me that I have no reason to dislike, then why would I not be nice back? Unless I suspected they had alterior motive or sour character or something like this. But that would be a reason to dislike them, in that case I would be neutral and say nothing or act with antipathy at them to make them leave me alone.

Can you please explain why you don't see Fe as a first function or yourself as Beta, leaving your brother out of it? It's just so I can get a better understanding of you as a person.

I am rather shy in real life until I get to know someone well even though I am extroverted. I like people in general but I don't know how to interact with them very well. I desire emotional closeness but I don't like being social because it's so empty to me. In fact I have no social grace really and I'm sure people think I am bit strange. I'd rather read books than go to "parties." I don't understand why most people do the things they do. I have difficult being around large groups of people. I can't do "small talk" and I don't know how to talk to anyone for long period to time except about things that interest me such as my hobbies and intellectual endeavors.

Lol but I'm sure you're still convinced I'm ENFj.

Elena, seriously, I'm not trying to offend you in any way, but learn to know what is good advice and what is not, regardless of who it comes from. If this quote was in reply to the above quote from niffweed, we would be getting somewhere in beginning to understand you. As it stands, you actually sound like me when I first came to the forum, except maybe even less receptive. Understand that niffweed is actually trying to help you, as harsh and tactless as his words are. They really, really are worth paying heed to. Get past the cruelty, and see what he and others are offering you.

I know what's good advice and what's not regardless of who it comes from. Hello, that's exactly what I was saying. When niffweed says something worth listening to I will listen. Same goes for anyone.

Possibly. I think it could be related to Ne though (something which I am not good at); potential qualities of others and considerations of possibilities. I tend to go off hard facts in making decisions, whereas it seems you prefer to first get a general feel of the person and decide using that. I'm not sure that you're Ne valuing, but you could well be adept in it; it may be that you have it as a 7th or 8th function.

Yes it may be related to Ne. I have considered this too. I know it's not something I value, but seems I perhaps use it in the unconscious way as the model suggests.

Now you have your answer. He's acting in defence of Joy. Again though, try and see the human element behind it; a couple of people bonding means that they will act in defence with one another. It's nothing personal.

Yes I already knew what it was about lol.

[Elena]

Three things, Elena.

First of all, I did try to give you information. Go back and look for what I asked you about temperaments, the long description of a type, and the vocabulary from the wikisocion.

You asked me that AFTER you made your insinuation about me.

Secondly, the way you describe my misunderstanding of you if very, very similar to how I feel when when certain people (kristiina particularly) write something about what they think I'm doing or what my motivations are. It doesn't bother me, but it is indeed absurd in my mind that anyone could misunderstand me so much. Perhaps this is a quality of look a like relations?

No. You are some kind of conflicting type or very close to it. You remind me some of ISFps.

Thirdly, do you speak Russian? I ask because if you do, you're at an awesome advantage. If not, you should pay a bit more attention to the information on Rick's site. I'm not saying that his interpretations are all 100% accurate (there's been at least one time when I've disagreed with something he'd written there), but overall it's an absolutely invaluable source of information for the English speaking Socionics community.

No I don't speak Russian. I already paid attention to the information on it, I agree it is invaluable as a source. I appreciate what he is doing and he seems like a nice person.

Basically, while I agree that it is wise to be wary of just blindly believing anything you read, it is unwise to ignore the largest source of information on a subject (that's in a language you can read) unless you have a specific reason to think it's inaccurate. Blindly rejecting a source of information is just as foolish blinding believing it.

Did you actually read what I said or are you just giving me some painfully redundant advice on the obvious? I hate that. Go re-read what I said if you must since you must be misinterpreting AGAIN. I'm not blindly rejecting a source of information.

Please limit or eliminate your responses to me from now on. I do not want to speak to you further.

[Elena]

I think that Elena is a clone of my drama-queen ENFj brother, (I don't mean that as an insult, despite the drama-queen line, as I like my brother a good deal ) but he starts arguments where there was none before.

I argue nothing without good cause. And I hate arguing anyway. It's not creative or productive.

And I'm going to venture out and guess that you won't lose your negative feelings of anyone in this thread until they apologize and admit that they were wrong and you were right.

Doubtful. Once I dislike someone, I dislike them for life. And never without good reason.

In any case, I don't think anyone intended to say that you were dumb or to blindly follow their words as fact, but someone like Rick who regularly attends (holds?) discussions about socionics and is around other socionists would be considered a fairly reliable source of information if you can't speak or don't live in or around Russia. His website is http://socionics.us/ (if you've already seen it you can ignore it.)

Did I ever say Rick was not a reliable source of information? No I did not. You misinterpreted what I said.

You probably have some understanding of socionics if you could determine that you were ENTj without using FDG, so that means something. Anyway, ENFj isn't that far off from ENTj (since they are look-a-likes), and leading doesn't equal being loud and obnoxious. Anyway, have fun.

I'm not leading.

And FWIW, I don't think that FDG's Beta, I think that he's a Gamma extrovert, and I'm more inclined to think that he has strong . So, ESFp would be my vote if I had to choose between ENTj and ESFp.

He's ENTj. His Se is not his base function. Yes he plays a lot of sports and is very active. But he is very Te, Te, Te in much that he does. More Ni than ESFp would be, they don't have the patience of attention for many of the very abstract things he enjoys. I find them much more impulsive as well while he is more cautious and thinks things through.

[force my hand]

Oh man, I wish I could keep score.

First it goes the one way, then it goes the other!

[Gilly]

Elena, I'm not going to come out and just tell you you're wrong, but you have to understand, some of the people here, Joy included, have been studying Socionics for years. Now you've just arrived here; you were asking about what authority Joy has, well, it's a few more years of studying this stuff than you, and that's just a fact. She's no professional Socionist, but Joy is one of the most well-respected posters on the forum, and you would be ill-advised to disregard everything she says for the fact that she's a little abrasive. I've had PLENTY of problems with her in the past, and she's hard to get along with sometimes, but I don't think it's a good idea for you to just ignore her based on what has happened here.

[Joy]

Does anyone else get the impression that Elena has done little more than made an account, helped FDG post what he wants to say in better English, and added a little bit of her own attitude to what he's saying?

Even if she's read every available source of information that's in English, she's still too new to this to grasp the usage of the vocabulary the way she does. And it's not sure Socionics vocabulary, but the Socionics vocabulary that's most commonly used here. (The suspicious thing isn't that she uses Socionics vocabulary, it's that she hasn't once mentioned any of the Socionics vocabulary that we don't commonly use here.) The only other explanation would be that she lurked for a long time and read many, many posts here before she started posting, but I cannot she an EJ (which I do believe she is) having the patience for that.

I must say that, assuming that it's true that in the very least she's writing these posts with FDG right there helping her with what to say, that he knows more about Socionics than he lets on. (Perhaps the language barrier is misleading after all?) I'd put him at a 2.5. There's still no way that he's not Se dominant though.

Please limit or eliminate your responses to me from now on. I do not want to speak to you further.

You are welcome to put me on ignore if you do not wish to interact with me, but I will continue to say whatever I wish.

[Expat]

@Joy: no, I hadn't even thought of that. Besides, what you described is very common when you're reading a forum in a language which is not your first language. Consciously or unconsciously, you "mimic" the ongoing vocabulary because you're not sure how else to say it. It's common and normal.

[Kristiina]

Hi Elena, welcome to the forum. I was asked to read some of your posts and to give my opinion on your type. I am probably the most clearly ENFj on the forum and I've been here longer than Joy. (I win, yay!). I strongly dislike FDG and I knew you were his friend, so I initially thought I wouldn't get along with you anyway. This is why I hadn't read earlier. I think he is ESFp and if you're his identical, then you'd also be ESFp.

My type was under debate for a long time and for over half a year I was convinced I'm ENTj. I was very certain that I can not be dominant because I am always very shy and quiet when I first meet people. I do not know how they will react to what I say, so I don't dare to say more than the minimum. I also behave very official so people assume I'm a very serious person. Later when I know them better, my behavior completely changes. My life style is not as active as yours, but I have realized that it doesn't make a difference. When I sit at the computer the entire day I am unable to relax properly, and when I run around all day and then come home and sit at the computer I am still unable to relax properly. I am always doing many things at the same time. When I "just drink coffe", I'm also listening to the radio, then I water the plants, then I do some other stuff... usually I leave half-finished cups of coffee lying around. The inabilty to relax is part of PoLR, but since you think you're ENTj, it was never really under debate.

The question is about and . Your posting style is quite , but what you say is clearly . It is good to be certain of something and I respect that you're so reluctant to quickly agree that you might not be ENTj. But don't treat this as a challenge of who wins the debate over your type.

Me and you have different lives and different friends , but we probably have the same type.

[implied]

you dislike fdg? ):

[Joy]

This post is quite presumptuous and Aristocratic, Joy.

How on earth would that be Aristocratic?

[Kristiina]

you dislike fdg? ):

He's on my ignore list next to Joy. You sound surprised. :-o

[snegledmaca]

He's on my ignore list next to Joy. You sound surprised. :-o

So am I. Wtf, when did this happen?

[Kristiina]

So am I. Wtf, when did this happen?

he was mean to me. A couple of weeks ago.

[aut0]

I have a question for Expat, I remember reading a post where you said that you met FDG and that he was indeed your identical, is that still true? Now I'm just getting confused.