Discusion of Ne PoLR in ISFjs and ISTjs

[blackburry]

Could this be a good indication of this PoLR; in preference to Ni instead of Ne, my LSI boss pesters the living daylights out of his employees for updates on projects that's seemingly random to me, but very specifically, he has to know what's going on with them "now", being sort of instantly satisfied, by calling or finding out, is something he strives for. These things that he needs an answer to are only things that are of logical conformity in his own mind, they aren't all that objectively important.

No. In work situations I know what's going on. I'm not retarded.
I'm talking about car wrecks, heart attacks, shit out of my control.
I'm not talking about trivial things.

[Beautiful sky]

No. In work situations I know what's going on. I'm not retarded.
I'm talking about car wrecks, heart attacks, shit out of my control.
I'm not talking about trivial things.

Well isn't Se so into the moment that they are concerned about trivial things (all those minute details)?

[blackburry]

Well isn't Se so into the moment that they are concerned about trivial things (all those minute details)?

Maritsa, I highly doubt we will agree on what I consider to be trivial.

[discojoe]

I know a female ESI, she's kind of unhealthy. Worries about everything. Hyper-vigilant about her children (which drives them crazy), too over-protective to the point where she prohibits them ever eating fast food of any sort because it's not organic, etc, etc. Generally she puts a wet blanket over anything fun because it might turn out to be dangerous. Nervous riding in a convertible with the top down because "what if it flips over and kills us??" Schedules out her day, writes everything down, wants to control what everyone's doing.

Basically, if she were my mother, I would scream and then run far, far away.

Her children should stab her in the neck with pencils. I bet she didn't foresee that one.

[Beautiful sky]

Maritsa, I highly doubt we will agree on what I consider to be trivial.

Well, for me, trivial is Socionics and how I can spend so much time with my hobby and not do anything "productive"; but, since I have a lot of routine already set up, I also have a lot of time

[Ainfigur]

So I've narrowed my type down to LSI or ESI, now that my understanding of socionics is less terrible.

I've realized threads on Ne polr here and elsewhere are pants. Most descriptions imply a dislike of breaking from routine and trying and understanding new things, and this is missing the point. Se types seek to understand the world as it objectively is, whereas Ne is concerned with understanding the world as it implicitly is, so curiosity and openness isn't a factor.

My way of describing Ne polr is like this; I see, and imagine reality as a series of static events. I can create rules based on information I know to decide how things are going to change and develop in the future, and these rules over time become increasingly complex (probably Ti, but this could be normative understanding for esi too). This is how my "Ni" manifests.

Ne seems completely alien to me, because I see reality as it objectively is, I can only determine what it could be through my system of rules. I think about the potentiality of something in a reactionary way, because of necessity.

When somebody is talking about a future event that they're excited about, I imagine the event as a static image(s) of whatever i associate with that event from experience, along with objective information about what I know about that event, and therefore from that rules as to how the event could develop.

It's boring and tedious for me to think about this kind of thing, so it's hard for me to be very enthusiastic. My ex used to get upset with me for playing down stuff she was excited about, which I didn't have a clue I was doing. I think it's this lack of enthusiasm for how things could potentially be that is interpreted as close mindedness.

Ne polr does not mean an aversion to trying and understanding new things, it's just a lack of ability to see the potentiality of something in a spontaneous and immediate way, and not valuing this either. And getting annoyed at people that do, but trying to hide it because i'm only jelly.

[ConcreteButterfly]

That could just be weak Ne, not Ne polr. Do you feel scared when things don't go according to plan? How are you around Ne egos ? How are you at brainstorming or randomly having fun with people, eg. impromptu dance moves? If you were to suddenly lose your job what would you do next? It might help to get a third person's opinion on your body language, too, as Ne polrs seem to have to have a stable, calm presence while Ne egos are somewhat more fidgety. There's also eye gaze to look out for. ESIs and LSIs have a "settling" gaze, Ne egos' eyes dart around a lot.

[ashlesha]

this doesn't strongly resonate with me but i dunno if that means anything since i don't think i'm an exemplar of ne polr. i've been thinking for awhile about writing about ne polr in order to flesh out my thoughts since my idea of how it could work in me is pretty slippery. this seems like a good place to do it. i'm not sure where to start so i'll just respond directly to the OP for now. i don't really have anything to contribute except my own experiences so if that feels like a hijack or something it can be ignored : p

I've realized threads on Ne polr here and elsewhere are pants. Most descriptions imply a dislike of breaking from routine and trying and understanding new things, and this is missing the point. Se types seek to understand the world as it objectively is, whereas Ne is concerned with understanding the world as it implicitly is, so curiosity and openness isn't a factor.

breaking from routine and new things, it depends. i'm happy with this stuff when its my idea but i'm not usually receptive to this kind of thing from other people. i dont really love surprises and i haaate pranks. i sometimes like hearing a few realistic options but too many suggestions or especially ones that aren't really applicable to me feels demeaning..when somebodys like, "why don't you just paint your kitchen wall beige?" when i live in an apt and can't paint the wall. i hate that.

(i couldnt think of an actual example question from my life so i made one up...strong Ne?)

i want to understand the world as it is both objectively and implicitly. i can't force myself to identify with one over the other. i want to understand the world objectively for the purpose of navigating in it effectively, so maybe that is just Te. i want to understand it implicitly because i'm not a robot and because when i can see how there are patterns that lie underneath i feel like there is more of a reason to doing things.

My way of describing Ne polr is like this; I see, and imagine reality as a series of static events. I can create rules based on information I know to decide how things are going to change and develop in the future, and these rules over time become increasingly complex (probably Ti, but this could be normative understanding for esi too). This is how my "Ni" manifests.

Ne seems completely alien to me, because I see reality as it objectively is, I can only determine what it could be through my system of rules. I think about the potentiality of something in a reactionary way, because of necessity.

i don't really relate to any of this.

When somebody is talking about a future event that they're excited about, I imagine the event as a static image(s) of whatever i associate with that event from experience, along with objective information about what I know about that event, and therefore from that rules as to how the event could develop.

i wouldn't use the word "rules," but its pretty close. actually i'm not sure i think about how it will develop at all. when i read this, i pictured a concert because that's something i'd get excited about, and it was just a snapshot picture of a crowd. and that was it, developments didn't enter my thoughts. thinking about how it could develop, my mind starts searching for more detail like who i am there with and who is playing, wanting to zoom in for context. and then, since i don't actually have any concrete plans for a concert atm, my inclination is to daydream some kind of plot. (is this Ne ---> Si?)

It's boring and tedious for me to think about this kind of thing, so it's hard for me to be very enthusiastic. My ex used to get upset with me for playing down stuff she was excited about, which I didn't have a clue I was doing. I think it's this lack of enthusiasm for how things could potentially be that is interpreted as close mindedness.

hm. with my eii friend when she talks about something she's excited about in the future, her enthusiasm is catchy and i don't play it down or discourage it at all.

but then with my sli ex when he would talk about getting changes to the house made or whatever and i knew from experience that the chances were low that he would actually follow through with what he was talking about, i got really impatient and i didn't want to hear about things that might get my hopes up or add contingencies to consider and then not even actually happen. but for him it was fun just to think about and imagine. but it really stressed me out. similar to having "maybe" plans (and worrying about conflict with other plans) or ambiguity or not getting straight answers. if this is ne polr related then yea i probably am. it feels deep rooted so maybe its more of an enneagram thing.

Ne polr does not mean an aversion to trying and understanding new things, it's just a lack of ability to see the potentiality of something in a spontaneous and immediate way, and not valuing this either. And getting annoyed at people that do, but trying to hide it because i'm only jelly.

i don't feel jealous of anybody that can see potentiality in things, i don't think. if they can both see the potentiality and make it happen i might feel jealous or admiring or something.

[Ainfigur]

That could just be weak Ne, not Ne polr. Do you feel scared when things don't go according to plan? How are you around Ne egos ? How are you at brainstorming or randomly having fun with people, eg. impromptu dance moves? If you were to suddenly lose your job what would you do next? It might help to get a third person's opinion on your body language, too, as Ne polrs seem to have to have a stable, calm presence while Ne egos are somewhat more fidgety. There's also eye gaze to look out for. ESIs and LSIs have a "settling" gaze, Ne egos' eyes dart around a lot.

If things don't go to plan, it depends on the situation as to whether that would bother me e.g I prefer to just go with the flow when I'm just having fun with other people, whereas if I am waiting around for someone or something I start to get pretty anxious. As for brainstorming, I can do this, I can come up with creative and unusual ideas, but I don't think it's just Ne that does this. The thing about having random fun with people I'm torn about. If i'm with close friends I'll randomly do crazy shit to make them laugh, if it's somebody behaving like that around me who I don't really know I wouldn't be very receptive to it. In fact if i'm in a bad mood it can piss me off. This thread is going to make me sound horrible :/ haha. I have a typical IJ/EJ posture. I don't think that's as relevant though. If I lost my job I would see it as an opportunity to do something new. But i'm 20 and don't have any responsibilities...

this doesn't strongly resonate with me but i dunno if that means anything since i don't think i'm an exemplar of ne polr. i've been thinking for awhile about writing about ne polr in order to flesh out my thoughts since my idea of how it could work in me is pretty slippery. this seems like a good place to do it. i'm not sure where to start so i'll just respond directly to the OP for now. i don't really have anything to contribute except my own experiences so if that feels like a hijack or something it can be ignored : p

Noo, please do post your experiences and understanding, it's a good way to work through ideas, and it's interesting.

breaking from routine and new things, it depends. i'm happy with this stuff when its my idea but i'm not usually receptive to this kind of thing from other people. i dont really love surprises and i haaate pranks. i sometimes like hearing a few realistic options but too many suggestions or especially ones that aren't really applicable to me feels demeaning..when somebodys like, "why don't you just paint your kitchen wall beige?" when i live in an apt and can't paint the wall. i hate that.

I would agree with this. I forgot to mention the need for things to be applicable, otherwise I have a tendency to disregard them.

i want to understand the world as it is both objectively and implicitly. i can't force myself to identify with one over the other. i want to understand the world objectively for the purpose of navigating in it effectively, so maybe that is just Te. i want to understand it implicitly because i'm not a robot and because when i can see how there are patterns that lie underneath i feel like there is more of a reason to doing things.

There's a difference between wanting to understand life and the world and the patterns between everything, which all people have an interest in, and valuing the implicit potentiality of objects in a way that you disregard or don't see it's objective properties. That's the difference between Ne egos and Se egos, in my understanding. Se sees first and foremost what IT IS, and then puts it into a framework of understanding.

i wouldn't use the word "rules," but its pretty close. actually i'm not sure i think about how it will develop at all. when i read this, i pictured a concert because that's something i'd get excited about, and it was just a snapshot picture of a crowd. and that was it, developments didn't enter my thoughts. thinking about how it could develop, my mind starts searching for more detail like who i am there with and who is playing, wanting to zoom in for context. and then, since i don't actually have any concrete plans for a concert atm, my inclination is to daydream some kind of plot. (is this Ne ---> Si?)

I don't first and foremost think about how it would develop, I probably wouldn't think about that at all unless I had too. I just see the static images and relate to that what I know, and what I feel about it. It's usually just a snapshot in my head, and then I change the subject back to something else.

hm. with my eii friend when she talks about something she's excited about in the future, her enthusiasm is catchy and i don't play it down or discourage it at all.

but then with my sli ex when he would talk about getting changes to the house made or whatever and i knew from experience that the chances were low that he would actually follow through with what he was talking about, i got really impatient and i didn't want to hear about things that might get my hopes up or add contingencies to consider and then not even actually happen. but for him it was fun just to think about and imagine. but it really stressed me out. similar to having "maybe" plans (and worrying about conflict with other plans) or ambiguity or not getting straight answers. if this is ne polr related then yea i probably am. it feels deep rooted so maybe its more of an enneagram thing.

I like talking about future trends and developments if it serves a practical benefit to myself or others. Talking about specific events purely because they're exciting, even if they might not happen, is weird to me. When Ne do this I can see why they're excited and can share in that to an extent, but I can't see everything that they can, so it can look to them like I don't care. I also dislike ambiguity.

i don't feel jealous of anybody that can see potentiality in things, i don't think. if they can both see the potentiality and make it happen i might feel jealous or admiring or something.

I'm jealous in a sense that they can appreciate life in a way I can't.

Also I'm describing things in a pretty robotic way, it doesn't mean that's exactly how I experience it

[consentingadult]

Imho most Socionics enthusiast try to make too much of the PoLR, trying to translate it into specific behaviors. But such behaviors are not really there, it is more a matter of behaviors that aren't there. In general I think the way the PoLR manifests itself is through the Mobilizing Function: if a person uses their Mobilizing Function too much, it is often obvious to onlookers that the principles of the Information Element of their PoLR are being violated, but the person themselves does not realize this. In case of an ESI or LSI, this is often a matter of drawing conclusions about a situation or a development without properly falsifying if other conclusions aren't possible either.Not just theoretical possibilities, but possibilities where one of them might in fact be more fitting for or explaining of the situation.

I've explained this in a blog post how this works for LSEs, perhaps this helps:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-and-polr.html

[suedehead]

I don't know where Ne is in my function block, but I find the idea of constantly pursuing 'fun' possibilities/new things as they come a bit intimidating. Typical questions that sort of behavior would rouse are: What's the purpose? What does any of this mean? Where is this leading me? Why did I just give up on that last thing I did? Is this what my life is going to be about? Who am I throughout all this, what am I working towards becoming?

The idea of dropping the things I currently care about for something brand new makes me feel strangely vulnerable.

[xerx]

a bird in the bush is worth two in the hand. -- a Russian ILE description.

[blackburry]

I'm not in an introspective mood at the moment.. and so I kind of just do things.


ISxJ seems about spot on... can't seem to differientate it yet but gamma seems possible (you don't seem to highly value Fe).

And I often confuse you and Suedehead when I read your posts (who I think is ESI-Fi). so... maybe?

[JWC3]

This seems more like you're talking about Ni values. Ne has less to do with how things will unfold and is more about being able to process ambiguity or uncertainty. Both Ne and Se exist "in the moment".

[Ainfigur]

I'm not in an introspective mood at the moment.. and so I kind of just do things.


ISxJ seems about spot on... can't seem to differientate it yet but gamma seems possible (you don't seem to highly value Fe).

And I often confuse you and Suedehead when I read your posts (who I think is ESI-Fi). so... maybe?

I think ESI. I like Delta too much. Betas are crazy:/

[Contra]

I don't know where Ne is in my function block, but I find the idea of constantly pursuing 'fun' possibilities/new things as they come a bit intimidating. Typical questions that sort of behavior would rouse are: What's the purpose? What does any of this mean? Where is this leading me? Why did I just give up on that last thing I did? Is this what my life is going to be about? Who am I throughout all this, what am I working towards becoming?

The idea of dropping the things I currently care about for something brand new makes me feel strangely vulnerable.

Haha, I identify with this so well, it's ridiculous. When I hang out with groups of people that like to have impulsive fun I fall into some sort of philosophical crisis and then just make up some sort of excuse and leave. I swear, all my alpha 'friends' hate me.

[suedehead]

Haha, I identify with this so well, it's ridiculous. When I hang out with groups of people that like to have impulsive fun I fall into some sort of philosophical crisis and then just make up some sort of excuse and leave. I swear, all my alpha 'friends' hate me.

Yeah, I can't do parties or large get-togethers for too long without feeling like I'm wasting my time. Close friends or family on a holiday is fine though.

Part of it is social anxiety, and another part of it is just not seeing the use of it from a long-term perspective. No genuine bonds are being formed or strengthened, I'm not actually enjoying this, nothing's being gained, none of this matters. It's pointless self-indulgence. A distraction. I could be working on my resume, applying for jobs, finishing the book I'm reading, catching up on my homework, etc.

[Contra]

Yeah I agree. It's virtually the same for me. I'm slightly better with parties than when my SEI friend comes up with stupid ideas like crawling through the rain drainage tunnel, building a bonfire on campus (Im in college), or constructing a raft out of small intertubes and duct tape and rowing it down the river. That said, I won't do either really. When Im stuck with these types of people I just start to think about all of the downside and whether I should stay because I'm sort of their friend or leave because its pointless and not fun for me. I then start worrying about my social progress and wondering how I ended up stuck with a bunch of guys who think walking through a wet tunnel and getting pneumonia is fun. If I don't see how an activity will help me progress, I just won't do it.

[blackburry]

I was absolutely like ^^^ the last couple of posts when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I was a pretty serious person.


Now I kind of just... do things with people who invite me places and I don't mind the partying as much. Can be fun when I actually have time to.

[FDG]

Over the years, I've come to think about the PoLR as just a reflection of your creative function, in a somewhat practical / down to earth fashion, meaning: humans have a limited amount of time they wish to allocate among differing activities, and if you focus on a specific facet of human life you're going to miss developing "skills" in its opposite facet.
So if you very much focus your life on completing a series of urgent tasks in a timely fashion with the highest amount of skillfulness (which I associated with Se creative, and perhaps sometimes Si creative), you won't have time to develop a constructive theoretical framework on how to apply existing methods to craft a new idea (which I associate with Ne creative, and perhaps partially with Ni). And if you're focussing your life on completing urgent tasks in a timely fashion, you may want to know how to do it as quickly as possible and in a way which may grant medium-to-long term success, I guess.

[ashlesha]

I often enjoy impulsive ideas and spontaneity when it comes to fun stuff in free time. I only get overwhelmed when they conflict too much with what I already had in mind or they are in regards to more serious life choices. Or the ambiguity of something like "maybe I'll go bowling with you Saturday, I'll call you and let you know Friday". .i might need to know by Wednesday cuz I'll be at the bowling shoes store or something lol I know people have lives so I try to hide my impatience unless this happens a lot. But it makes me feel anxious

[Ainfigur]

Yeah, I can't do parties or large get-togethers for too long without feeling like I'm wasting my time. Close friends or family on a holiday is fine though.

Part of it is social anxiety, and another part of it is just not seeing the use of it from a long-term perspective. No genuine bonds are being formed or strengthened, I'm not actually enjoying this, nothing's being gained, none of this matters. It's pointless self-indulgence. A distraction. I could be working on my resume, applying for jobs, finishing the book I'm reading, catching up on my homework, etc.

I relate to this, but I enjoy these situations a lot more now I have control over my anxiety. It's a cliche, but you get from these situations what you choose to. The best way to tackle social anxiety is to put yourself out there and just talk to people.

Yeah I agree. It's virtually the same for me. I'm slightly better with parties than when my SEI friend comes up with stupid ideas like crawling through the rain drainage tunnel, building a bonfire on campus (Im in college), or constructing a raft out of small intertubes and duct tape and rowing it down the river. That said, I won't do either really. When Im stuck with these types of people I just start to think about all of the downside and whether I should stay because I'm sort of their friend or leave because its pointless and not fun for me. I then start worrying about my social progress and wondering how I ended up stuck with a bunch of guys who think walking through a wet tunnel and getting pneumonia is fun. If I don't see how an activity will help me progress, I just won't do it.

This made me laugh. I have (had) friends like this, who have to turn everything into something stupid and irresponsible (but not actually in any way daring) to prove how brave and "manly" they are. I bet they shame you for not taking part, and all that negative shit? Fuck them.

[yeves]

this was a particulary helpful description of Ne Polr

... [for] an example of ESI Ne PoLR works live, read the OP to this thread. There is a lot of dwelling on Ni and Fi, ethical analysis of past actions, without considering the positive future potential.

ESI (Ne PoLR): This is what has happened, this is my past. It was full of mistakes and personal failings. This is where I am now. What will happen from this point on makes me feel fearful and apprehensive (it will disturb my present stable state).
ILE (lead Ne): Don't get stuck on the past - instead think about all the positive potential that your present holds! Think about things that could happen and how your situation could change.
ESI: [feels awkward because he/she cannot lucidly conceptualize it, and edges towards the exit]

I think Ne PoLR is best described as an inability to visualize and describe all the "could be's" and "might be's" and a deep running insecurity when the ESI/LSI gets pulled out into this zone.

The difference between LSI and ESI Ne PoLRs is that ESI doesn't consider positive future potential while the LSI doesn't consider negative potential. Thus ESI runs him/herself into a corner and begins complaining about not seeing a positive future, while the LSI keeps running around making mistakes and getting bruises from life, and also complains about how life is bringing him down.

Good example of the later, of LSI's Ne PoLR, is Stalin's reaction to an attack by Nazi Germany that broke their nonviolence pact. He blanked it out and denied that his country could be getting attacked by the Germans. The Red Army did nothing for weeks, people weren't evacuated leading to higher military and general population loses. Stalin could not entertain the "negative" possibility that Hiitler would turn against him. This attack completely blindsided him.

I also agree with these posts. This is exactly how I've seen Se creative and weak intuition show with an ESI woman at my workplace.

the way i notice it with my ESI sister is like if something isn't directly connected to the goal/situation at hand, then its pointless. like she sets a path and any alternate ideas or suggestions of other things to take into consideration are ignored because what matters is the path that has been chosen.

Yep. This is my mom (also ESI). She gets her mind set on something, and it's not so much that she is unwilling to look at other possibilities but that she is simply incapable. And if other people try to suggest other options, it's like they might as well be speaking a foreign language.

[Contra]

In my LSI brother, Ne polr manifests as a constant search for what could possibly go wrong and also an inability to grasp really crazy facts. Whenever he is working on a project or a paper he will put in an ungodly amount of hours and have every human he knows look it over just to make sure nothing goes wrong. Even when he blows people away with his work, he still finds the negative. It's actually led to insane academic success but he is so stressed all of the time he will probably die before 40.

To the latter, I remember showing my brother a Vsauce video where the guy talks about the number of particles in the universe (or something along those lines) and how large of a number it is. My brother just sat there and said he was wrong because he couldn't imagine how large of a number it really was. It was maddening to say the least. This has happened countless times. His Ti lead coupled with Ne polr makes him impervious to being gullible or believing anything he wasn't taught in school or by his parents.

[FDG]

In my LSI brother, Ne polr manifests as a constant search for what could possibly go wrong and also an inability to grasp really crazy facts. Whenever he is working on a project or a paper he will put in an ungodly amount of hours and have every human he knows look it over just to make sure nothing goes wrong. Even when he blows people away with his work, he still finds the negative. It's actually led to insane academic success but he is so stressed all of the time he will probably die before 40.

The way I've seen this work in a couple of N-polr people is: something comes up and they completely stop doing a given task (when they are fed up) without any kind of transition.
By the way that desc sounds more ISFj than ISTj.

[Contra]

That's interesting. That's not really like him. He can't handle the unexpected but that just leads him to preparing for pretty much everything. Could you give an example of a situation?

That does sound like my LSE father however. He can't handle anything that messes with his plans or beliefs. He constantly claims that he can't handle uncertainty, which I don't have as much of a problem with.

All of my brother's friends are Beta. His wife is EIE. My LIE sister and he conflict pretty badly. It would really mess with intertype relations if he were ESI. Not saying it's impossible, but I couldn't be ILI and most types I've given would have to be wrong.

[Kirana]

In my LSI brother, Ne polr manifests as a constant search for what could possibly go wrong and also an inability to grasp really crazy facts.

My LSI mom is the same. Her motherly caution borders on surveillance. (Not great on my Se PoLR; my space is my space, it isn't an "annexed" extended space of hers to dominate, just because I'm family). I see this a lot more than what some members have posted on not seeing the negative consequences (although I guess that may be true for things that were her idea - perhaps I don't get to see much of that since my dad tends to lead with the ideas. But certainly she responds to other people's ideas with default negativity). Also, she has no appreciation with the far-out notions my IEE dad and I sometimes toss around - or that we do it on purpose. For like, fun. It seems incomprehensible to her why we would "unnecessarily" think of alternative interpretations (whether of facts or of people's motivations).

I was married to an ESI (there were extenuating circumstances as to how an LII managed to get herself in that situation - let's not go there). His negativity was different. It was less about novelty but more about being recalcitrant about changing their view of something or someone they already decided they understood - and he reacted especially negatively when presented with hard evidence for how the view is less supported than another. He had dreams but couldn't build himself or contemplate any changes in order to reach them. Our marriage deteriorated until it hurt both of us and we knew it had to be dissolved, but he couldn't bring himself to do anything - I had to do it for the sake of both of us. He asked how I could cope. I told him, the person I was could not, so since there was no choice, I grew to become the person who could. He simply could not understand it.

[Kirana]

Her children should stab her in the neck with pencils. I bet she didn't foresee that one.

The manifestation of ESI functions, depends on how they see themselves according to their base Fi. I think ESIs are confusing because of this, since you have to work out how they see themselves first. They can easily appear like another type until you work out whether the observed behaviour is type-related, or an ESI identifying with that role/self-image. But if an ESI mother decides that a good mother cares for her kids' nutrition, then that is what manifests as nutritionally controlling. If it's something else, then that's what it appears as. (Note: I use "controlling" because I'm Se PoLR and that's how I perceive it. LSIs and ESIs probably just see it as being effective in pushing people under their care to achieve things that are 'good for them' - direct acquisition of the goal is preferred, i.e. compliance, rather than indirect such as misdirection or cultivating desire or inspiration). I think that part is Se Creative, though, not the Ne PoLR.

But yes, any number of things that they don't already like, they will be determined not to like - but actually, many of the supposed reasons for not doing them are rationalisations and not really the reason, IMO. Because convincingly removing the reason, does not change the opinion; it boils down to, I won't like it and so won't try it. Nicer ESIs won't impede you from trying yourself, but it's still not as fun if you can't share the experience with them. One way ESIs can manage, is if they decide that a role they identify with, requires them to be fun. I know one such example, a manager in a department that values innovation. Then she will try to sample novelty - she will even believe that she values ideas, when everyone in her team and adjacent teams would disagree. Anyway it doesn't work as well as it would for an Ne valuer, but at least they avoid ending up as wet blankets. For ESIs I note so far that a lot rides on what their Fi tells them about who they are. It's a really strong motivator for them; they really believe it to the exclusion of all else.

[blackburry]

dear lord.

None of these descriptions sit well with me about how I view myself.

I evolve. and I do change. and I do things. and incidences that aren't necessarily favorable happen all the time..how anyone can't just go with the flow at times is strange to me. especially if it's somewhat minor.


I think my Ne Polr comes out during a fight more than at any other time. Because I want to be right.

[golden]

I've tried to figure out Ne-polr in action, beyond the basic descriptions. So far I've seen things that might fit with it, but they are LSI-based and I've no idea whether they apply to anyone but the people I know:

(1) An inability to look at something in its current state and imagine how it can be transformed, even when the whole future picture is described clearly. I've seen that this can improve over time, though. Or at least more trust can emerge on this issue.

(2) Requiring a damned good, proven, external reason to deviate from what is "correct," normative. A rigidity here that surprises me. Only on certain issues, though.

??

[Skepsis]

When you can't finish reading books like 1Q84 because the storyline seems pointless and events seem too random to even care what happens to the characters. Also, not being able to get past the wrongness of the thirty year old man having sex with a seventeen year old regardless of the circumstances. The plot felt like a cover up, an excuse, as if the goal was to have sex with a minor regardless of the circumstances while blaming the circumstances for it happening. "It just happened," kind of b.s.

[ashlesha]

^ i haven't read lolita for similar reasons.
but i liked murakami's kafka on the shore even though it was really weird/dreamlike and involved incest. (haven't read 1Q84)

[Skepsis]

^ i haven't read lolita for similar reasons.
but i liked marakumi's kafka on the shore even though it was really weird/dreamlike and involved incest. (haven't read 1Q84)

hehe.....yeah, I don't plan on ever reading lolita. I haven't read anything else by Marakumi. Maybe it was the translation, but I just didn't enjoy his writing style, especially his use of analogies and metaphors, and there were many. They just seemed odd and not relevant. 1Q84 had a dreamlike quality to it and parts of it were fascinating for sure, but otherwise, meh. I just lost interest halfway through.

It's kind of trade off really. I enjoy reading a lot of Stephen King, and I believe that you mentioned you liked some of his works as well, but sometimes he writes so tangentially that I start to lose interest. But, I often love the depth of his imagination, the world that he creates, or the atmosphere and feelings he evokes, that I'm willing to force my way through them. His work can be very dreamy and enjoyable as well.

[Iwantpeace]

Ne polr might look like the inability to make changes due to fear of the future, feeling as though one has a lack of options, rigidness in beliefs, closed off to others and new ideas or adventures, being over cautious, saving (old objects and money) excessively, hoarding.
Not interested in change (new meals, trying new things).

That said please share how you have seen Ne polr IRL in LSIs and ESIs.

And btw this thread was created out of love only! I've got a very special LSI and being an ESE-Fe subtype I highly value Ne. So I am curious.

[wasp]

Ne PoLR can be understood best by considering how it works alongside Se-creative.

It's not a fear of change, it's needing to do something (tangible, Se) when people, systems, or situations don't correspond with their set of ethics or principles (Ji) but since Ne corresponds with "space" it can be assumed that Ne valuers know when and where to place "things". Ne PoLR doesn't. It may instinctively know that now isn't the best "space" (Ne) nor "time" (Ni), but since Ji-lead + Se-creative overrides both Ni and Ne, xSI must act immediately.

I'll try to provide examples by comparing Ne PoLR with Se PoLR.

At their worst,
Ne PoLR will seem like bigots that take it too far and invalidate both themselves and their cause(s).
Se PoLR will seem like doormats that don't take it far enough and miss out on opportunities to share their perspective.
("The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.")

At their best,
Ne PoLR will seem capable of enacting tangible change in their environment with an admirable dose of volition.
Se PoLR will seem capable of subtly reworking their environment with a healthy dose of perspective.
Ne PoLR sacrifices perspective for volition, while Se PoLR sacrifices volition for perspective.
(volition = immediate, tangible change; perspective = gradual, "sit and ponder" change)

How this plays out in interactions between IxE and xSI, is that the crux of what Ne-leads say is equivalent to "hot air" (which isn't usually meant to trick or deceive, it's just running wild with Ne) but xSI attach real weight to words/deeds. So if you say or do [x] today but then you say or do [y] tomorrow, it's like *WHH CHH* whiplash. LSI is more likely to think: "I said or did [x] today but then tomorrow I said or did [y]. I can't even trust myself."

That's why Ni HA is "to believe" - if you're exposed to enough contradictory information, then the line between truth and falsehood blurs. It's safer to assume it's all falsehood, but that's where supervision comes in handy. IxE knows how to communicate with xSI in their language (Fi or Ti) - they know how to shed perspective at key moments to alleviate xSI from their incredulity, even paranoia, whilst expanding their horizons in the process.

[Delilah]

While I can't use myself as a measuring stick for my type, I can say that personally i have recently noticed the tendency to jump the gun, so to speak. This has the benefit of problematizing an issue and removing ambiguities. The downside is that it might come across confrontational and might cause issues where there weren't any (but, say , I felt the need to address some ambiguity). This is just one trait, there might be more i could add later

[isptn]

Can Ne PoLR manifest as a kind of disinterest in imaginative wanderings that have nothing to do with the immediate situation or otherwise no practical use? For instance, having no interest in imagining where all the cars on the freeway might be going, thinking about the past or future, or hearing stories about people they will never meet?

Can it manifest as a kind of acceptance of reality, having no regrets, not wondering about how things could have been different, and not worrying about alternatives much when making choices? Just choosing one thing and going with it as if it were the only path one could choose, trusting fate, as one sees no point in regret or imagining that things could happen differently?

Can Ne PoLR involve a strong disinclination to make any guesses or inferences, connect the dots, or jump to conclusions? Feeling uncertain about anything that isn't fact, and not wanting to presume one knows more than they do? Feeling open-minded in the sense of acknowledging what they don't know, and that the unknown could be anything as far as they know, but not wanting to guess at what it may be?

[Exodus]

Can Ne PoLR manifest as a kind of disinterest in imaginative wanderings that have nothing to do with the immediate situation or otherwise no practical use? For instance, having no interest in imagining where all the cars on the freeway might be going, thinking about the past or future, or hearing stories about people they will never meet?

Can it manifest as a kind of acceptance of reality, having no regrets, not wondering about how things could have been different, and not worrying about alternatives much when making choices? Just choosing one thing and going with it as if it were the only path one could choose, trusting fate, as one sees no point in regret or imagining that things could happen differently?

Can Ne PoLR involve a strong disinclination to make any guesses or inferences, connect the dots, or jump to conclusions? Feeling uncertain about anything that isn't fact, and not wanting to presume one knows more than they do? Feeling open-minded in the sense of acknowledging what they don't know, and that the unknown could be anything as far as they know, but not wanting to guess at what it may be?

All told this sounds most like an SLI. "Not worrying", "no regrets", "acceptance of reality" is sort of the antithesis of Ne Vulnerable. Ne Vulnerable means you dislike unknown factors and try to avoid them by controlling your environment or sticking to what you know. The last paragraph sounds like valued Te with low Ne. Other Te ego types might also fit.

[isptn]

All told this sounds most like an SLI. "Not worrying", "no regrets", "acceptance of reality" is sort of the antithesis of Ne Vulnerable. Ne Vulnerable means you dislike unknown factors and try to avoid them by controlling your environment or sticking to what you know. The last paragraph sounds like valued Te with low Ne. Other Te ego types might also fit.

I'm not sure I agree. Somehow I just don't see Ne PoLR types worrying about all the things that could have been or could be and wanting to consider multiple options. Meanwhile, SLIs do seem to worry and catastrophize sometimes, imagining things that could go wrong. They also seem interested in imagining what's out there in the world. The thing about wondering where all the cars on the freeway are going actually came from an SLI. She seems intrigued by all the possibilities and complexities, which she doesn't actually suggest herself but seems to wonder or ask for. My response to that was to say it sounded like it would be information overload.

I don't know. At this point I'm sure I'm a Sensor, so I must be either Si or Se. I have not been finding Si at all relatable. But I don't know about Se either. But how you defined Ne Vulnerable doesn't sound different from what I described, especially sticking to what I know. I don't try to connect the dots or make guesses, I just stick with what I actually know.

[powerrainbowcrystal]

No. Ne polr means you get very frustrated when somebody jumps around topics too much instead of going deep into the Fi point you are trying to make. (lsi makes Fi points all the time with their role function, and esi with their ego function.) Ne & Fi fight all the time in this way.

I don't see Ne polr without imagination/creativity or anything like that (that is more Ni polr - esp more in Te subtype lse) - but yeah if somebody is being way too idea-based (Ne is ideas) and not grounded in reality enough, it will really piss them off.