dbmmama and Fi?

[Lotus]

to you.

No. It doesn't make sense AT ALL. How does a SEE make an IEE look more SEI?

edit: and tbh I highly doubt you're SEE. But whatever.

[unefille]

then, i'm not really sure about my mil. you and her are so much alike. but, she was not good with reading people's facial expressions and such. she was amazed when i could so easily.

i read facial expressions effortlessly. i just don't like it when people's words don't jibe with what i know they are really thinking/feeling based on their facial expressions. which i know to be dead on.

dbmmama, is there a thread where you've posted about your mother in law? After all these comparisons, I'd be interested in reading something about her, I think. Reading facial expressions and tone is something I do automatically and without conscious thought though.

As for liking or not liking when people's words contradict their unspoken cues...I'm pretty sure that's just a personal preference. I mean, that contradiction is often what generates verbal irony and can be pretty funny. I suspect you're talking more about suspecting some form of dishonesty or an attempt to mislead you?

[strrrng]

Total stab in the dark, but that seems to suggest not the greatest Fe, nor much Ti either. And maybe Te valuing with 'wanting the words to mean what the person says'. lol, am totally reaching here. My socionics-fu is still in neophyte mode.

So, if being inept at expressing what you mean is "not the greatest Fe," how is "wanting the words to mean what the person says" - which is essentially conveying your true meaning - Te?

since i'm thinking SEE, that fits.

How could it fit? Her post completely contradicted itself. And it was just some convoluted garbage anyway.

here's the deal. i'm SEE. sis is IEE. we learned lots of cool stuff from each other over the years. she looks more SEI like because of it and i look more Ne because of it. but, irl, that's what we are.

What the hell, lol? How does you being ESFp make your ENFp sister look like an ISFp, and you look like Ne? Where the hell are you coming up with these conclusions from?

i gotta get the hell outta here! i got shit to DO!!

Ah, of course, cause you're Se.

i do understand a person's meaning underneath the words but i do not appreciate that i have to interpret it in my head. i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean without my brain having to guess and interpret it. even though i CAN do that, i'd rather not have to.

This could be anything. Unvalued Fe - not wanting to look at the underlying dynamics; unvalued Fi - not wanting to interpret core motives; valued Ti - desiring clarity, etc....so it doesn't say much.

i read facial expressions effortlessly. i just don't like it when people's words don't jibe with what i know they are really thinking/feeling based on their facial expressions. which i know to be dead on.

This sounds Fe'ish, but could also be Se related. And are you that confident? I'd like to see you talk to Allie and interpret her meanings, lol.

As for liking or not liking when people's words contradict their unspoken cues...I'm pretty sure that's just a personal preference.

Agreed.

[dbmmama]

dbmmama, is there a thread where you've posted about your mother in law? After all these comparisons, I'd be interested in reading something about her, I think. Reading facial expressions and tone is something I do automatically and without conscious thought though.

As for liking or not liking when people's words contradict their unspoken cues...I'm pretty sure that's just a personal preference. I mean, that contradiction is often what generates verbal irony and can be pretty funny. I suspect you're talking more about suspecting some form of dishonesty or an attempt to mislead you?

yes, it feels like the latter to me. even though, i know on some level it isn't. it still feels that way. THAT is what feels like emotional manipulation to me, the kind that makes my skin crawl. i call people on it and my sis warns me that i'm isolating people because of it.

what sucks is that almost all humans do this. i'm sure even me. why i've been kinda fearful/distrustful of the human/social realm.

i don't think this sounds SEE at the moment. i'm allowing my vulnerable side out. if this is attacked, i will retreat and not come back. seriously. if i don't feel safe, i will not come back. i'm only showing you all this about me to help type me. i try very hard to hide this shit about myself normally.

[dbmmama]

This sounds Fe'ish, but could also be Se related. And are you that confident? I'd like to see you talk to Allie and interpret her meanings, lol.

i didn't say i was good at interpreting meaning. i suck at it. that's why i prefer people to say what they mean.

i would be able to interpret her inner feelings through her facial expressions/gestures. yes. i'm very good at that naturally. but not good at changing them. better at allowing them within the person. but still wanting what i just read from them to match their words.

[consentingadult]

I still think dbmamma is beta. In several posts, also this one, she made statements that come down to that she wants other people to be straightforward ("if you don't like my spaghetti, just say so") and she rejects hypocrisy ("people should walk their talk"). People I've known that got 'worked up' others not being straightforward or direct, or being hypocrites, were mostly SLEs and IEIs.

The overall feel of dbmammas post (not the content, but the style) is rather 'dramatic', in an Fe style. We have a saying in Dutch: 'big mouth, tiny heart', a compliment meaning that behind the though appearance there is a sensitive person, who easliy gets sentimental when people show appreciation towards them. That's how she feels to me. Perhaps dbmamma can tell if she recognizes herself in this description.

It's just an intuitive thing, but I think she's SLE. And as far as I can tell, a nice one too.

[Slacker]

I still think dbmamma is beta. In several posts, also this one, she made statements that come down to that she wants other people to be straightforward ("if you don't like my spaghetti, just say so") and she rejects hypocrisy ("people should walk their talk"). People I've known that got 'worked up' others not being straightforward or direct, or being hypocrites, were mostly SLEs and IEIs.

The overall feel of dbmammas post (not the content, but the style) is rather 'dramatic', in an Fe style. We have a saying in Dutch: 'big mouth, tiny heart', a compliment meaning that behind the though appearance there is a sensitive person, who easliy gets sentimental when people show appreciation towards them. That's how she feels to me. Perhaps dbmamma can tell if she recognizes herself in this description.

It's just an intuitive thing, but I think she's SLE. And as far as I can tell, a nice one too.

Well the first part of that is Se, and yes I agree about that. But I still say the second part could just be extraversion + F type. People often mistake creative Fi for Fe around here.

She seems very much like an F type, and she seems very strong in Se, like leading-function strong. If she were an SLE she wouldn't be strong in Fe or Fi, she'd elicit it from others.

[consentingadult]

If she were an SLE she wouldn't be strong in Fe or Fi, she'd elicit it from others.

This is true, but this is exactly how I experience her attitude. But I'm not willing to bet my bottom dollar on it. I wish there was video of her, so we could see it in actual action. That opinion she gave would have been great material for a vodcast

[Slacker]

This is true, but this is exactly how I experience her attitude. But I'm not willing to bet my bottom dollar on it. I wish there was video of her, so we could see it in actual action. That opinion she gave would have been great material for a vodcast

You're right - a video would help. Though I'm afraid people would still see Se and assume ESTp. ESFps can be very dramatic too. In fact I don't think I know an ESFp who isn't dramatic.

[aestrivex]

i very strongly doubt that dbmamma is an SEE.

[consentingadult]

ESFps can be very dramatic too. In fact I don't think I know an ESFp who isn't dramatic.

I concur. In fact I think it's an EP thing, and to a lesser extent IP.

[munenori2]

At first I wasn't sold on her, but she's kind of grown on me over time.

dbmmama <3

[reckoner]

How is Obama a pussy? All politicians need to be idealistic. They are getting lots of fat cash precisely *to* be idealistic leaders instead of doers. You can't blame them for that. Experience can be hired. Politicians and leaders are much better when they're idealist intuitives rather than hard-working "manly" sensors. It's the nature of the beast. Writers are the same way. The pen is mightier than the sword, and dictates the ideal way for humans to behave. The intelligent control the non-intelligent in this game.

Have you seen Obama try to bowl? He can't really do actual work well, but that's why he's a politician. *insert random joke here.* Politicians by their very nature are like that. They are supposed to understand how all systems work but not get their feet sullied in any one thing. A civilization needs that, unless you want to give up your conveniences. People that want to 'stick it to the man' can't even give up their i-pods or computers or level of cozy comfort. I'm just saying.

Bush tried to rule with a iron fist and look where it got us. More Heart and Mind and Spirit than Hand, please. I'd take a liberal pussy boy over a bully boy conservative any day.

I somewhat agree with your overall sentiment, but I take offense to the bolded quote. How does being a shitty bowler make him incapable of doing actual work well? He's a pretty good basketball player. Is bowling "work" and basketball something else? I think what you are going for is some sort of standard of "work" as being what would generally be considered "blue-collar work." But how do his successful efforts as a law student, lawyer, community organizer, and law professor reflect in any way that Obama can't do any actual real work. I attended a good U.S. law school (no Harvard or Yale, but not that far behind) and I can tell you we did tons of actual work. It might have been intellectual work, but it didn't make it any less difficult than shoveling shit or picking up a 5-7 split. The fact that Obama was the editor of the Harvard Law Review (which is all based on merit btw) tells me that he is both a very capable and hard worker, and smart as shit to boot.

I've worked in politics and I can assure you that a good amount of the actual elected officials work damn hard. And I don't mean that they have long hours attending events and shaking hands, but they dive in depth into the issues to come up with working policy solutions. Not every politician is a puppet figurehead like Bush and Reagan.

[Kristiina]

Ah, SEE, I would have to rethink that type in some sense, but that could be possible type for dbmmama. I am just pretty damn sure that she's not EIE like people used to say all the time. And there is no way I would type her IEE. I would also exclude all IJ types. IP is quite unlikely, but not altogether impossible (ISFp Fe-sub can be very energetic). I'm totally leaning toward ego Fi/Fe because of the strong Fe in dbmmama's posts.

Mhh, altogether, I see no problem with SEE typing. ESE is still possible IMO, but if dbmmama says SEE, then I can wait it out and see if it's a passing type-phase or if it is actually the right type.

[unefille]

So, if being inept at expressing what you mean is "not the greatest Fe," how is "wanting the words to mean what the person says" - which is essentially conveying your true meaning - Te?

I thought she meant she wanted other people to only say or use words to express their 'true' meaning so that she wouldn't have to think too hard about interpreting them or have to consider the way in which she was expressing herself either. From that, I thought she was implying that she struggled with non-verbal cues, thus weak Fe. And wanting other people to dispense with Fe and simply to focus on their words seemed Te valuing, rather than having Te ego herself.

But her next post implied that she is very proficient at reading non-verbal cues, she just gets annoyed about it for reasons that seem personal rather than related to socionics. So that killed the previous train of reasoning somewhat.

[dbmmama]

At first I wasn't sold on her, but she's kind of grown on me over time.

dbmmama <3

munenori2, like a fungi or leech or a big hairy mole? (sorry if that sounds kinda gross)

<3

your quotes are the best, btw.

[dbmmama]

Ah, SEE, I would have to rethink that type in some sense, but that could be possible type for dbmmama. I am just pretty damn sure that she's not EIE like people used to say all the time. And there is no way I would type her IEE. I would also exclude all IJ types. IP is quite unlikely, but not altogether impossible (ISFp Fe-sub can be very energetic). I'm totally leaning toward ego Fi/Fe because of the strong Fe in dbmmama's posts.

Mhh, altogether, I see no problem with SEE typing. ESE is still possible IMO, but if dbmmama says SEE, then I can wait it out and see if it's a passing type-phase or if it is actually the right type.

i appreciate your thoughtful post. i agree with not being EIE or IEE or IJ but possibly IP but probably not. SEE for now and yeah, i'll wait to see if it's a phase too.

[dbmmama]

I thought she meant she wanted other people to only say or use words to express their 'true' meaning so that she wouldn't have to think too hard about interpreting them or have to consider the way in which she was expressing herself either. From that, I thought she was implying that she struggled with non-verbal cues, thus weak Fe. And wanting other people to dispense with Fe and simply to focus on their words seemed Te valuing, rather than having Te ego herself.

But her next post implied that she is very proficient at reading non-verbal cues, she just gets annoyed about it for reasons that seem personal rather than related to socionics. So that killed the previous train of reasoning somewhat.

great stuff here unefille. i've got 4 kids and my hubby is like a kid himself. i'm reading cues left and right. yeah, i do it fine. but, i need a break sometimes! and just want to talk to someone where i don't have to think about doing that. yeah, i'll do it anyway, but it'd be nice if i didn't HAVE to.

[munenori2]

munenori2, like a fungi or leech or a big hairy mole? (sorry if that sounds kinda gross)

<3

your quotes are the best, btw.

More like a cheerful brain tumor.

And thanks!

[Lotus]

You're not SEE, you're probably ESE. For one, you'd be the only ego type to constantly avoid answering me when I point out the flaws in your arguments, and you're extremely sensitive to a disturbance in your little bubble. But I'm not even going to go into that right now. First I just want to point out the major contradictions in your argument for Fi/Te Valuing.

Throughout this thread you've mostly been repeating yourself without clarifying a damn thing.
What you're really saying is:

1. You're best at understanding external emotional communication rather than external verbal communication.

   i read facial expressions effortlessly. i just don't like it when people's words don't jibe with what i know they are really thinking/feeling based on their facial expressions. which i know to be dead on.

2. You are extremely confident in your ability to understand someone's meaning beneath their words but not the words themselves.

   i do understand a person's meaning underneath the words but i do not appreciate that i have to interpret it in my head.

3. Because of all that, you want someone who puts things into context.
   

   i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean without my brain having to guess and interpret it. even though i CAN do that, i'd rather not have to.

This is all true, no? I am assuming it is, and I'll expand on why it points to ESE, NOT SEE.




In regards to point 1, valuing your understanding of someone's emotional communication over their verbal communication: Valuing.

1. Extroverted ethics

The ESE is quick to recognize and respond to passion and emotional involvement, stimulating it where there is none and fueling it where there is. He is well aware of his own and others' passions and tastes and likes to do and say things that stimulates and gives expression to these passions. The ESE likes to see people become lively and animated and show what they feel without thinking first. The ESE equally expects others to let out their negative emotions (despair, anger, sadness) in periods of distress, since he knows keeping them inside can only aggravate bitterness and discontent. His dual the LII finds this openness liberating, and appreciates someone who can positively guide and influence the emotions he communicates.
The ESE is typically an engaging communicator, communicating a kind of naive excitement about whatever he talks about. He likes to playfully personalize discussion of topics by telling stories and sharing anecdotes drawn from his past.
The ESE sees reality through the prism of the emotional atmosphere around him, which is mainly, though not exclusively, influenced by the surrounding people and their moods. He will always have much to say about the "vibe" given off by various sensory stimuli.
He is not at all hesitant about steering the emotional environment in the direction he sees fit. He'll liven up the atmosphere with jokes if it's too gloomy, or get people down to business if they're being too frivolous.
The ESE makes inquiries into people's states based on cues given by their expressions.
The ESE will take great satisfaction in interacting with people who are receptive to emotional activation.

Compare this to having Fe as a demonstrative function:

8. Extroverted ethics

The SEE usually does not engage in extensive displays of outward emotion when by himself or amongst close friends, and prefers the company of people who simply understand him without the need for external expression as a means of verification.

Based on what you wrote:

i would be able to interpret her inner feelings through her facial expressions/gestures. yes. i'm very good at that naturally. but not good at changing them. better at allowing them within the person. but still wanting what i just read from them to match their words.

SEEs do NOT need external expression as a means of verification. You, however, are DEPENDENT on that.


(continued in next post...)

[Lotus]

Point 2, finding meaning in expression rather than what is actually said:

7. Introverted ethics

The ESE cares very strongly about maintaining personal bonds with friends and family, but always does so by creating clear and colorful displays of affection. Such expressions include smiles, compliments, affectionate expressions, and the like. If he thinks attraction is present, he will try to bring it out into the open, since he believes that it is a person's right (as well as a necessity of emotional well-being) to express and to realize his love in all its fullness. ESEs take for granted that feelings will result in external demonstrations of emotions and be welcomed gladly when expressed. For instance, ESEs will be inclined to regard a person's lukewarm response to an enthusiastic greeting as lack of interest, or even hostility.
Accordingly, ESEs have a good understanding of discussions or explorations of one's own inner feelings regarding other individuals, but will become skeptical or bored if the style is too "matter-of-fact".

What I bolded about taking for granted that feelings will result in external demonstrations of emotions, you've admitted feeling that way:

yes, it feels like the latter to me. even though, i know on some level it isn't. it still feels that way. THAT is what feels like emotional manipulation to me, the kind that makes my skin crawl. i call people on it and my sis warns me that i'm isolating people because of it.

what sucks is that almost all humans do this. i'm sure even me. why i've been kinda fearful/distrustful of the human/social realm.

i don't think this sounds SEE at the moment. i'm allowing my vulnerable side out. if this is attacked, i will retreat and not come back. seriously. if i don't feel safe, i will not come back. i'm only showing you all this about me to help type me. i try very hard to hide this shit about myself normally.

i read facial expressions effortlessly. i just don't like it when people's words don't jibe with what i know they are really thinking/feeling based on their facial expressions. which i know to be dead on.

You're completely ignorant to the idea that what someone is "really thinking/feeling" may be based on their VERBAL expressions. You clearly take for granted that feelings result in external displays of emotion rather than verbal displays. You say you actually feel manipulated when someone's emotional and verbal expressions are not congruent? How the fuck do you think you are not valuing?

i read facial expressions effortlessly. i just don't like it when people's words don't jibe with what i know they are really thinking/feeling based on their facial expressions. which i know to be dead on.

This sounds Fe'ish, but could also be Se related. And are you that confident? I'd like to see you talk to Allie and interpret her meanings, lol.

So how would you react to me? He brought up my name for a particular reason. Because finding accuracy in my expression would be difficult for someone like you. You look for emotional cues and "vibes" which would mean I would completely throw you off. My verbal expression has "vibes" as well as tones, meaning, character, etc. To express myself I will word something a particular way. I don't regulate my emotional expression whatsoever. For anyone who has been to the Stickam chats and seen me on webcam I pretty much have the same expression all the time.




And finally, to point 3, wanting someone who puts things in context:

5. Introverted logic

The ESE will greatly admire people who can analyze everyday situations and put them in context, as well as introduce them to exciting new concepts or "research". The ESE wants his actions to make sense, but is almost always too caught up in his emotions to make very methodical, introspective, and impersonal judgments. If he cannot find a source of certainty, he may become insecure and unable to act rationally.

I think that accurately describes your dual-seeking function. Do you honestly think your dual is the ILI? You'd be constantly hitting his PoLR:

4. Extroverted ethics

ILIs analyze situations and make decisions in a very logical and scientific manner. Their reliance on objectivity and accumulation of factual knowledge leaves very little room for decisions based on emotional considerations. ILIs deeply dislike being asked or coerced to express their emotions. They are most comfortable expressing negative sentiments which indicate their disdain for required emotional participation, such as wry, sardonic pessimism. Some ILIs have very poor control over their emotions, and may lash out angrily if provoked.
When discussing matters that are perceived as important, ILIs often betray a harsh, critical perspective on viewpoints and ideas that they find particularly stupid and insensible. This may be a result of the fact that some ILIs do not attach emotional considerations to arguments and do not consider criticism to be offensive. Instead, if confronted with somebody whose intelligence, persona, or ideas they do not respect, they may react in a hostile fashion, which can be perceived as arrogant; however, not all ILIs, obviously, will react in this fashion.

Without outward emotional expression (which you've repeatedly said you're most comfortable understanding), all communication would be lost. Good luck with an ILI. lol

[hellothere]

I don't want to get too involved in this, but I think you've twisted dbmmama's meaning a bit, or at least the socionic interpretation of it

Throughout this thread you've mostly been repeating yourself without clarifying a damn thing.
What you're really saying is:

1. You're best at understanding external emotional communication rather than external verbal communication.

how does this say anything about what she values? its just what she's better at - better at Fe than Te

You are extremely confident in your ability to understand someone's meaning beneath their words but not the words themselves.

again, strengths not values

Because of all that, you want someone who puts things into context.

not sure what you mean by this, but dbmmama's own words "i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean" seems to suggest she'd rather have a dual strong in Te rather than one strong in Fe

This is all true, no? I am assuming it is, and I'll expand on why it points to ESE, NOT SEE.

the first two points are consistent with both ESE AND SEE, while the third I'm less sure of, but it arguably points to Te valuing (or at least, her words support a Te valuing argument as much as they do an Fe valuing one)

SEEs do NOT need external expression as a means of verification. You, however, are DEPENDENT on that.

she didn't say that, she just said she was good at using external expression - strong in Fe, consistent with both SEE and ESE

You're completely ignorant to the idea that what someone is "really thinking/feeling" may be based on their VERBAL expressions. You clearly take for granted that feelings result in external displays of emotion rather than verbal displays. You say you actually feel manipulated when someone's emotional and verbal expressions are not congruent? How the fuck do you think you are not valuing?

I can't argue with this; you may have a point, i'm not sure

Do you honestly think your dual is the ILI? You'd be constantly hitting his PoLR:

perhaps, its arguable though - just because she's good at Fe doesn't mean she'd constantly use it around her dual

Without outward emotional expression (which you've repeatedly said you're most comfortable understanding), all communication would be lost. Good luck with an ILI. lol

perhaps, I think it all revolves around what she actually meant by "i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean" though

[Creepy-bg]

hyperfocus much allie?

[Lotus]

not sure what you mean by this, but dbmmama's own words "i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean" seems to suggest she'd rather have a dual strong in Te rather than one strong in Fe



the first two points are consistent with both ESE AND SEE, while the third I'm less sure of, but it arguably points to Te valuing (or at least, her words support a Te valuing argument as much as they do an Fe valuing one)




she didn't say that, she just said she was good at using external expression - strong in Fe, consistent with both SEE and ESE



I can't argue with this; you may have a point, i'm not sure





perhaps, its arguable though - just because she's good at Fe doesn't mean she'd constantly use it around her dual




perhaps, I think it all revolves around what she actually meant by "i'd RATHER someone just say exactly what they mean" though

Read it again. You missed the point of nearly everything I wrote. And no, she's not "good at" Fe. But it is her leading function. She values it. She clearly says over and over again that she's only confident in what people are saying emotionally when they communicate, not in what they say verbally. She wants congruence or she feels manipulated. How else can I possibly make that simpler? How would she feel in a Quadra of people who don't express themselves with that congruence? Who don't need emotional expression to communicate? She said its the only type of communication she trusts, how could she possibly be comfortable?

hyperfocus much allie?

*nods*

And I'm procrastinating. Sigh

[hellothere]

Read it again. You missed the point of nearly everything I wrote. And no, she's not "good at" Fe. But it is her leading function. She values it. She clearly says over and over again that she's only confident in what people are saying emotionally when they communicate, not in what they say verbally. She wants congruence or she feels manipulated. How else can I possibly make that simpler? How would she feel in a Quadra of people who don't express themselves with that congruence? Who don't need emotional expression to communicate? She said its the only type of communication she trusts, how could she possibly be comfortable?

I may have, but I don't think I did. And my point wasn't to argue your point but to question whether your basic premises could really be drawn from what dbmmama said (or at least, what you quoted of her). She seemed to be primarily talking about her strengths rather than her preferences.

[Lotus]

She also said how she feels manipulated and bothered by people who don't express external emotional/verbal congruence. I honestly don't see how to make that simpler.

[hellothere]

I think you're probably right with that; though I still think dbmmama should be given a chance to explain more clearly what she meant by that one line, and how she sees it fitting in with her type.

also:

You're not SEE, you're probably ESE. For one, you'd be the only ego type to constantly avoid answering me when I point out the flaws in your arguments, and you're extremely sensitive to a disturbance in your little bubble.

I don't see why sensitivity to the flaws in her argument being pointed out can't be Ti-polr. Wouldn't an LII naturally do this? How can the LII be her dual if she doesn't like it when this happens to her?

[Blaze]

FWIW when i met dbmmama IRL she did not seem to be ESE in the slightest.

i've been looking at the male-female type descriptions at the wiki lately. the gender aspect creates an enormous influence on type expression. i'd recommend, if anybody is struggling with their type, read that, it might help clarify some things. the ILE female one was pretty good.

[Slacker]

People with creative Fi are strong at Fe.

[Slacker]

Also, I thought this was the kind of thing she was talking about.

From wiki SEE description:

2. Introverted ethics

An SEE knows exactly how to make other people feel a certain way. He can offer genuine, believable praise to an individual he wants to reward, and likewise can make a person very upset and/or ashamed in themselves. However, if an offender changes their ways in favor of the SEEs point of view, the SEE will be quick to reward the offender with praise, and appreciation, treating them like a good friend. Moral ground to an SEE completely depends on the situation and is anything but set in stone.
"Fake niceness" rarely fools an SEE. The SEE can easily tell whether a person is being genuine or just selfishly trying to fulfil their own needs.

[Creepy-bg]

I wish I had something to add

lol I just don't know though

[aestrivex]

actually, i agree with most of what allie has to say and think that she should take a look at herself under the lens of some of what she says about Fe.

[Lotus]

actually, i agree with most of what allie has to say and think that she should take a look at herself under the lens of some of what she says about Fe.

Um, I have. This is why I don't think I value Fe.

[Creepy-bg]

Allie, Niffweed obviously knows more about you than you do... you need to listen to him.

[Ezra]

I think it's quite clear that dbmmama is a Fe-valuing, probably Fe base, type.

[Creepy-bg]

I think it's quite clear that dbmmama is a Fe-valuing, probably Fe base, type.

ya because it's so easy to get a "quite clear" impression of somebody you've never met and only interacted with over a forum.

[dbmmama]

i appreciate the interest and time people are putting into this for me, everyone.

to clarify what *I* meant. Slacker Mom has it right:

2. Introverted ethics

An SEE knows exactly how to make other people feel a certain way. He can offer genuine, believable praise to an individual he wants to reward, and likewise can make a person very upset and/or ashamed in themselves. However, if an offender changes their ways in favor of the SEEs point of view, the SEE will be quick to reward the offender with praise, and appreciation, treating them like a good friend. Moral ground to an SEE completely depends on the situation and is anything but set in stone.
"Fake niceness" rarely fools an SEE. The SEE can easily tell whether a person is being genuine or just selfishly trying to fulfil their own needs.

THAT is what i'm talking about. (the one thing i'd change is praise. i do not believe in praise but appreciation and yes, there is a difference. praise is judgment where appreciation comes from Fi. i believe praise to be an outside judgment. i want my children to judge for themselves and live with their own consequences of the choices they make)

It would be heaven if I was around straightshooting, straighttalkers that genuinely expressed their emotions when and if the time/place, whatever, called for it.

I think the reason people here see me as Fe valuing as well as Fe base is just because I like to play and have fun. and just because i can read vibes easily doesn't mean that's what i'm all about.

i'm not going back to find it, but allie said something about me expressing myself in an Fe way irl. NOT! if my sister read that one, she'd laugh her head off. this is ONLINE people! putting your finger on a button that makes a smiley face does not make one Fe. choosing to put a smiley face does not make one Fe. BEING Fe irl makes one Fe. that i am not. reading other people's vibes feels more like a curse than anything else. yeah, i do it, but PREFER that people talk straightup not all over the top "happy, giggly, fake emotions" all over the place. i sure don't do that irl. i was always my sister's "straight man" growing up.

and i never said that i couldn't understand what someone's words mean. i just prefer that emotions are expressed genuinely not to "keep the vibe going." now my sister on the other hand, that's her.

when my children express their emotions about something, i am the first to jump on the situation to see what can be DONE about helping them deal so that they calm themselves from within. i do NOT manipulate, i allow. emotional manipulation through "fake emotional displays" is the devil to me. that is the worst bullshit anyone can do to another. back, back i say!!

[dbmmama]

FWIW when i met dbmmama IRL she did not seem to be ESE in the slightest.

i've been looking at the male-female type descriptions at the wiki lately. the gender aspect creates an enormous influence on type expression. i'd recommend, if anybody is struggling with their type, read that, it might help clarify some things. the ILE female one was pretty good.

i appreciate and respect your input blaze. you know i enjoy playing with the concepts within each of us to see what else their might be there.

yes, my sis laughs at the idea of me being ESE as well.

[strrrng]

An SEE knows exactly how to make other people feel a certain way. He can offer genuine, believable praise to an individual he wants to reward, and likewise can make a person very upset and/or ashamed in themselves. However, if an offender changes their ways in favor of the SEEs point of view, the SEE will be quick to reward the offender with praise, and appreciation, treating them like a good friend. Moral ground to an SEE completely depends on the situation and is anything but set in stone.
"Fake niceness" rarely fools an SEE. The SEE can easily tell whether a person is being genuine or just selfishly trying to fulfil their own needs.

This description means absolutely nothing; an ESFj could do the exact same thing if they wanted to. If you're going to use stupid, superficial trait descriptions to type yourself, go back to myers briggs. This is about information processing, not petty behaviors.

THAT is what i'm talking about.

I really doubt that's "what you're talking about" lol. Seems more like you just cherry-picked some generic ESFp description and used it to encompass all the random stuff you were saying before.

praise is judgment where appreciation comes from Fi.

Appreciation does not come from Fi; I have no idea why you think that. Fi is not morals and personal sentiments.

[dbmmama]

You're not SEE, you're probably ESE. For one, you'd be the only ego type to constantly avoid answering me when I point out the flaws in your arguments

allie,

you and i obviously do not see eye to eye. i understand that and i also understand that i've matured enough over my life (i am more than double your age) to know when to shut my mouth over things you say. it takes a strong will to do that. because when i was your age, my will came out in ways that would tear you apart (or at least we'd have one good fight about it.)

i appreciate maturing for many reasons. i will not further discuss this aspect to our relationship. it would do neither of us any good for what we want in life.