Smilexian socionics: Si column

[Smilingeyes]

Anglican/Episcopalian?

Information I prefer not to divulge.

Anyway... I've been thinking about something else, something that I haven't strictly mentioned at any point.
It has to do with the cyclical nature of the functions.

Te is the maximum of Te. Te is neither increasing or decreasing at this point. But it is not the maximum of accumulation of Te and in this sense it is not the completion of Te. It is the peak, from which there is as long a way to the the point of Fe by the way of decline as it was in ascension.

At the point of Si Te is at its maximum of accumulation, a process that is finished. It is decreasing at it's most rapid pace but it's active strength is in balance with it's opposite Fe.

At the point of Fe Te is at its minimum. There's a lack of Te but not the most dire of needs for Te. It's direction is going nowhere, it's activity is at a negative peak.

At the point of Ni the lack of Te is at a maximum. Its activity is rising at its highest speed but its active power is still the same as that of Fe.

...

I had previously used the derivate of the sine curve of functions but I hadn't put the integral in the same frame of reference. So there.

[Smilingeyes]

Another day, another morsel for thought:

ESTj: Aha, here he is at last. Neo, the One himself, right? And the legendary Morpheus. And Trinity of course, si belle qu'elle me fait souffrir. I have heard so much, you honour me. Please, sit, join us. This is my wife, Persephone. Something to eat? Drink? Hmm... of course, such things are contrivances like so much here. For the sake of appearances.
?: No, thank you.
ESTj: Yes, of course, who has time? Who has time? But then if we do not ever take time, how can we ever have time? Château Haut-Brion 1959, magnificent wine, I love French wine, like I love the French language. I have sampled every language, French is my favourite - fantastic language, especially to curse with. Nom de Dieu de putain de bordel de merde de saloperies de connards d'enculés de ta mère. You see, it's like wiping your arse with silk, I love it.
ENFj: You know why we are here.
ESTj: Hmph... I am a trafficker of information, I know everything I can. The question is, do you know why you are here?
?: We are looking for the Keymaker.
ESTj: Oh yes, it is true. The Keymaker, of course. But this is not a reason, this is not a `why.' The Keymaker himself, his very nature, is means, it is not an end, and so, to look for him is to be looking for a means to do... what?
ESTp?: You know the answer to that question.
ESTj: But do you? You think you do but you do not. You are here because you were sent here, you were told to come here and you obeyed. [Laughs] It is, of course, the way of all things. You see, there is only one constant, one universal, it is the only real truth: causality. Action. Reaction. Cause and effect.
ENFj: Everything begins with choice.
ESTj: No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without. Look there, at that woman. My God, just look at her. Affecting everyone around her, so obvious, so bourgeois, so boring. But wait... Watch - you see, I have sent her dessert, a very special dessert. I wrote it myself. It starts so simply, each line of the program creating a new effect, just like poetry. First, a rush... heat... her heart flutters. You can see it, Neo, yes? She does not understand why - is it the wine? No. What is it then, what is the reason? And soon it does not matter, soon the why and the reason are gone, and all that matters is the feeling itself. This is the nature of the universe. We struggle against it, we fight to deny it, but it is of course pretense, it is a lie. Beneath our poised appearance, the truth is we are completely out of control. Causality. There is no escape from it, we are forever slaves to it. Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the "why". "Why" is what separates us from them, you from me. `Why' is the only real social power, without it you are powerless. And this is how you come to me, without `why,' without power. Another link in the chain. But fear not, since I have seen how good you are at following orders, I will tell you what to do next. Run back, and give the fortune teller this message: Her time is almost up. Now I have some real business to do, I will say adieu and goodbye.
?: This isn't over.
ESTj: Oh yes, it is. The Keymaker is mine and I see no reason why I should give him up. No reason at all.
ESFp?: Where are you going?
ESTj: Please, ma chérie, I've told you, we are all victims of causality. I drink too much wine, I must take a piss. Cause and effect. Au revoir.

The character has a lot of ESFj qualities but the reasoning he exhibits here, what drives him, is a fine rendition of ESTjness.

[Smilingeyes]

Since every now and then there's a thread about what concrete use has there been to us of socionics (not counting mental puzzles and forum fun which are a sort of prize by themselves) I thought I'd just share a couple of stories...

My ex-wife was involved in a team producing ... well... something that's of no concern to the story, and the team consisted of an IP-Te boss, ESFp, ESTp, ENFp and an ESFj and one other I haven't typed. Anyway I was able to warn her well beforehand that the ESFj would eventually bolt. At this point no one was yet sensing any problems. Six months later she was gone and the cataclysm almost destroyed their team. My ex was prepared for this and had no significant difficulties in handling the situation.

Currently I'm working in a place that is dominated by me and a bunch of other EJ types. Our boss is an ENTp who leaves everything in the hands of a certain ESTj who despite lacking a position and almost any education actually runs the place. There's other types... the IJs do well in the situation. There's only one other Ep and she's great. One ISTp has achieved mascot status and I and the other ESTjs take good care of him... but then there was an INFp nurse who worked directly under another ESTj doctor. She just gave her two weeks notice. I had warned my boss that this would happen about two months ago. At that point nobody believed me.

So... even if there strictly speaking wasn't any concrete benefit to me over these two issues, there was concrete benefit to be had by the use of this skill. Sorry. Forgot... I did get a pie from my ex.

So... Learn socionics, win pie.

[FDG]

I beat you, I have formed an INTp ESFp couple; (the ESFp offered sex in exchange. I told her that wouldn't have been appreciated by her boyfriend).

also warned an ENFp that she was going to break down when she wanted to go abroad to study and see her ISTp once a week from the seven times a week she was seeing him before.


Anyway. If we're all victims of the fate (and I agree), doesn't resignation lead to liberation? Or we have to fight those that fight for the opposite?

[Smilingeyes]

I beat you, I have formed an INTp ESFp couple; (the ESFp offered sex in exchange. I told her that wouldn't have been appreciated by her boyfriend).

also warned an ENFp that she was going to break down when she wanted to go abroad to study and see her ISTp once a week from the seven times a week she was seeing him before.

Some cool moves. But from where I stand it still looks like I got the pie and you didn't.

Anyway. If we're all victims of the fate (and I agree), doesn't resignation lead to liberation? Or we have to fight those that fight for the opposite?

I agree completely with the resignation/liberation stuff. But why do you bring this up here? What's your idea?

[Smilingeyes]

Ok... I guess I need to reannounce this or something... I am currently testing whether and how accurately it is possible to type people purely through reinin dichotomies.

I'm going through this partly on the forum, partly in private mail with someone.

When doing this I type singular instances of behaviour. I consider the typing a success if the behaviour is within the same temperament and within one type quadra of what the generally accepted type of the person is.

As a practice run I did some Reinin typing on people whose names and types I did know. (And naturally they worked but that wasn't much of a test.)

Second I typed small amounts of discussion selected by another person (and I repeat, without knowing the person in question beforehand).

It turned out that I typed a comment by jewels as ENFp, one by cracka as ESFj, one by khamelion as ISFp, one by joy as ENFj... then there was another of which I unfortunately don't remember the type or the name of the person and one by baby on which I failed completely because the piece of text was humorous and I couldn't sort what was the real intention of it. I put that down as a personal, not a methodological failure.

Later I've started to type youtube videos of people of whom I have little preconceptions.
If people wish to agree or disagree with me and type these people differently, please do so. My skills as yet in this method are rather weak so I'll do my best to remember this and not feel insulted by differing opinions. Anyway, the typings so far were:
Wesley Clark: ESTp
Tom Tancredo: INTj
Mike Gravel: ENTj

I did access their wikipedia articles also but I consider biographical data a generally weak method to type people and gained relatively little from that. If you wish to share your ideas of the types of these people, please don't do it here, I'd prefer not to clutter this thread needlessly.

I've also started to type people in the "what's my type section". People who have observed me know I've previously done this quite rarely and really my starting ability in the process is low. For a prolonged period now I've considered only the types of a certain number of people I know intimately to be known to me for certain. (Though I admit I haven't been able to keep my mouth shut every time about my opinions on the type of some others). Anyway, now I'm doing a purposeful push to test whether I can type people purely with the set of axioms I've previously tested mainly theoretically and in a subset of people who are very close to me.

So, I apologize for any disturbances this may cause. If there's prolonged opposition to this habit of mine, I'll start doing it in private mails. This will result in a decreased availability of information on my experiment on the forum, something which may or may not be considered harmful by the generic populace. I would rather that the results were available for people to use and meditate on as they wish, but if there's an expression of their wish for me to do this process through private mails, I'll do it in private mails. I'll suggest that if five send me a private mail with an empty message field within the next 24 hours that is sufficient indication that I should continue the process in private.

Over and out.

[Smilingeyes]

I have previously repetitively rebelled against the idea of permanent types and said that if one types people according to behaviour (and that is the only way to type I find acceptable) the way of typing is forced to accept momentary types because behaviour changes and because relationships as observed by me depend on the behaviour exhibited.

Now... I still consider this the strictest form of reality, that there are no absolute limits to change in type.
BUT. Reality also shows that many many people find it useful to remain in similar type of behaviour and activity continuously, for prolonged periods of time and when they do deviate they consider this a tool or a mask in service of the original way of life. Now I'm not certain if I'm misusing terminology here and if I am I hope labcoat will correct me, but as I understand it he's been calling this remnant personality, this type behind the current behaviour the metatype and the behaviourally observable type the object personality. I love those names and I'd like to use them in this way, but if this is a misappropriation I'll have to rename them. Labcoat?

Anyway... I believe this kind of activity and ideology lies behind model-A thinking. ... Now where I believe model-A fails is if a person loses track of hir metatype, or never really had one, if they remain for years and years in the object type, there's no longer a way for them to find out that their object type "is really a mask" and in this way, the metatype becomes insignificant in this subset of people. Also I believe this metatype can be lost in other ways. I believe there are a number of advantages and disadvantages to maintaining such a metatype-objecttype structure. I think it is exceedingly common to use this structure and that it might very well be the dominant strategy also in the sense of being most likely to be succesful. But this is impossible to prove since it's impossible for the same people to live two lives, one in which they try to maintain behaviour and one in which they try to adapt.

...

Anyway... if I were to add a dichotomy into my typing methodology, I feel it would be this "meta vs. object/temporary". Is the behaviour temporary or is it what the person is really about.

[krieger]

meta/object, metabolism/exertion and master/slave are the names we have been using.

Our assumption is that both types are stable and unchanging, but there is room for adjustment...

We also think that there is a constant interaction going on between these two types. This entails that all 'intellectual' activity in a metatype-thinker with a feeling object type involves the object type's feeling function in reaching it's conclusions. In my case I experience this as a need to get a very profound understanding of a problem before I choose to tackle it. Also as a sense of dissatisfaction as if saying "we don't understand this well enough".

"Is the behavior temporary" is an interesting way to frame it... I personally think that all activities of a person employ the object type in some way, and that the meta-type is sort of lurking in the background as the motivation of the action. Somehow we are more adept at picking up that unspoken motivation and are inclined to see this as the 'nature' of a person, and the other bit as a mere appendage to it.

A good way to get an understanding of meta/object type interaction would be to imagine a metatype ESTp professing an object type INFj attitude:

"No, you idiot, we've got to give this guy a chance to speak, where's your sense of ethicality?!"

[Smilingeyes]

Finally experienced a phenomenon which requires model A to explain.

While being ENTj I experienced occasional episodes of acting like ENFj and occasional episodes of acting like ESTj. These were usually natural consequences of my flow of actions. I did not notice the role of Fe+Si in my mind back then.

Now while being ESTj I finally noticed the ego-superego relation. My primary mode of thinking is that I need to personally deal with and correct things in my environment and that I have to be able to do this. Now there's this small voice in the back of my head that says "let it go, let things sort themselves out, just stand by and watch!" It wasn't there when I was ENTj. It wasn't there in this manner way back when I was acting ESFj. I find the noise hugely annoying but also, on occasion somewhat necessary to balance my activity and stop me from turning into a complete control-freak. It appears to me that the connection of functions into ego and superego blocks is actually true, though this phenomenon too is obviously not permanent.

Anyway, it appears that while I'm quite likely to act as an ENTj would and can act as an ESFj, the most direct and constant relation is to this super-ego creature feature. Again, looking backwards I remember occasions of an ESFj role taking over when I was acting ENTj, but I was unable to recognize it as such then. The reason might be that I'm conciously strictly trying to avoid acting like an ENFj.

Anyway, this gives more reason for interest in the momentary subtypes and the differences in action between people who are generally of a type and others who are taking that as a role for a moment.

Another thing I recently experienced... Asking for Ne-opinion on a subject. First time I was interested in such for a long long time.

Strong hoodoo.

[Smilingeyes]

I had the most socionically hilarious weekend... A reunion of five people who had formed a sort of group in high school. Back then it had been ENxp + 2 ISFps + IxFp + ESFj. The ENxp was the girl and us others were her... hmm... fanboys? Something like that. Anyway... Now the IxFp was INxp, the ENxp was sort of the same but having known her through the whole time I know that she's actually gone through being the various forms of Ep temperament in the years between, one of the ISFps had turned INTp and the other was now ISxp. And I'm ExTj. We reiterated all the good memories but it was sort of embarrassing. The feeling really wasn't there though we did our best.

What was funny was how the then party-centered alpha posse had found their professions. The ENxp worked for her parish. The IP who had changed types was a teacher. The INFp with subtype change edits movies. And the final IxFp... he's a huge bald, bearded biker whose job deals with international arms trade of said biker gang. ISFp, the archetypal peacemaker... the colt version Anyway, I just thought that was hilarious. As it happens the guy is still the most gentle guy I know and though he boxes and is rather good with blades etc. he's still a complete social pushover. So Kawaii!

[Smilingeyes]

I thought Id make a small greeting here again.
I havent been coming here because Ive had my hands full of work and had to concentrate on what Im doing. Basically thats learning surgery, something I hope to be doing for a large part of my life.

Another issue is that I find the disharmony and confusion that rules on the site offputting and repugnant. I continue using socionics in my everyday life and basically it works and gives me benefits. Im happy about that. Its enough for me.

Couple of my friends are adamant that I should write a book on the subject. I am conflicted about this, and probably I will not do this thing. If I will, I am thinking about not calling the matter socionics and replacing all terminology with something I find fitting. The reason for this is that since many theories that are supported by many socionists are basically impossible in nature or easy to prove wrong or just completely nutty, I dont agree with socionists on many things. And even though just about everything I find useful is supported by one or more prominent socionists, there are a number of people who purport to find what Ive said very dissimilar to socionist writings. So... I dont really know which would be viewed by others as more honest, to claim that Ive created a new branch of social science, or that Ive syncretized and copied fragments of other peoples work.

In the meanwhile, I also wish to extend a public apology to Joy. There was a very harsh message I wrote to you and peter here a long while back. Im sorry I was so forceful back then and I should not have taken part in that discussion at all. It is perhaps not a smart thing to draw peoples memories back to such a thing but I wanted to do the right thing.

Lately Ive been watching episodes of Apprentice, US and UK versions, for relaxational purposes. I dont really like Trump (Ep Ti), but Sir Alan Sugar (Estj Si) is hugely entertaining. For all the stuff about Te being business logic I find it ironic that only one of the 11 apprentice winners focuses on Te. Anyway, the series is a nice situation in which to observe people of all types acting in stressful situations in which they tend to lose masks and use their core abilities. On series 6 theres a very educational situation in which Ti and Fe people gang up on their Te project manager for a sequence of episodes while a Si Ne axis couple forms and largely stands aside. Its almost pretty in its naturalness. And when in the finale the Te person is asked which finalist hed pick he is unable to answer and thinks the situation is a joke.

If youre reading this fdg, Im very much in the phase of self control now, plunging in hard. See you on the other side, eh?

[kensi]

Anyway... I believe this kind of activity and ideology lies behind model-A thinking. ... Now where I believe model-A fails is if a person loses track of hir metatype, or never really had one, if they remain for years and years in the object type, there's no longer a way for them to find out that their object type "is really a mask" and in this way, the metatype becomes insignificant in this subset of people. Also I believe this metatype can be lost in other ways. I believe there are a number of advantages and disadvantages to maintaining such a metatype-objecttype structure. I think it is exceedingly common to use this structure and that it might very well be the dominant strategy also in the sense of being most likely to be succesful. But this is impossible to prove since it's impossible for the same people to live two lives, one in which they try to maintain behaviour and one in which they try to adapt.

...

Anyway... if I were to add a dichotomy into my typing methodology, I feel it would be this "meta vs. object/temporary". Is the behaviour temporary or is it what the person is really about.

Cool....So in this ontology of your's...how do you define or seperste this Meta-type from Object type? I take it the Meta Type is more Permanent?

[FDG]

If youre reading this fdg, Im very much in the phase of self control now, plunging in hard. See you on the other side, eh?

Eheh, you'll probably give to humanity much more by exercising self-control in order to learn something so important (and increasingly uncommon as skills) as surgery, in comparison to what I will give by being unwilling to sacrifice my freedom. So, more power to you

[Reuben]

A sad face is a hardened heart.

a sad heart produces a happy face.

Just stop trying

[Lobo]

Another issue is that I find the disharmony and confusion that rules on the site offputting and repugnant. I continue using socionics in my everyday life and basically it works and gives me benefits. Im happy about that. Its enough for me.

Couple of my friends are adamant that I should write a book on the subject. I am conflicted about this, and probably I will not do this thing. If I will, I am thinking about not calling the matter socionics and replacing all terminology with something I find fitting. The reason for this is that since many theories that are supported by many socionists are basically impossible in nature or easy to prove wrong or just completely nutty, I dont agree with socionists on many things. And even though just about everything I find useful is supported by one or more prominent socionists, there are a number of people who purport to find what Ive said very dissimilar to socionist writings. So... I dont really know which would be viewed by others as more honest, to claim that Ive created a new branch of social science, or that Ive syncretized and copied fragments of other peoples work.

I would be interested in reading your theory, or what it is that you disagree with.

[kensi]

what again does this thread have to do with Si ?

[Mariano Rajoy]

[munenori2]

There's some Si I can get behind!

[Reuben]

If you have watched Naruto, Byakugan represents Si. The object of your desire is always right in front of you, beneath you, at your blind spot.

It is impossible to heal that blind spot, but you can keep moving your eyes around. Read Indigo, a book. It talks about being invisible. It talks about being able to see all. It talks about Si/Ne transcendence.

[Reuben]

But best of all,

It talks about love.

[Smilingeyes]

Just a kind of catalog of Apprentices. I thought I should make one somewhere and this for me, is as good a place as any.

Given that there just isn't enough data on many of these people in the shows themselves, whatever is written below is simply my best guess based on what I see on the show. I haven't bothered to do more background research on these guys.

US
season 1
D Trump - ENTp-Ti
George Ross - ISTj-Ti
Carol, the female judge - ISFp-Fe
Bill Rancic - Cigar Business Owner INFp
Kwame Jackson - Investment Manager ISFj-Se
Amelia "Amy" Henry - Account Manager INTp-Ni
Nick Warnock - Copier Salesman - ESTp-Ti
Troy McClain - Mortgage Broker - ENTj-Ni
Katrina Campins - Real Estate Agent - ESTj-Te
Heidi Bressler - Senior Account Executive - ENTj-Te
Omarosa Manigault-Stallworth - Political Consultant - ISTj-Ti
Ereka Vetrini - Marketing Manager - ESFj
Tammy Lee - Stockbroker - ENTp-Ne
Jessie Connors - Chiropractic Business Owner - INFj-Fi
Kristi Frank - Restaurant Owner -ESFp-Se
Bowie Hogg - Account Executive - ISTp-Te
Sam Solovey - Business Director - ENFj
Jason Curtis - Real Estate Manager - ENFp-Fi
David Gould - Venture Capitalist - ISTp-Te

season 2
Kelly Perdew - Military Intelligence Officer - ESTp
Jennifer Massey - Attorney - ISFj
Sandy Ferreira - Bridal Salon Owner - ESFp
Kevin Allen - Law Student - ESTj-Te
Ivana Ma - Venture Capitalist - ENTp
Andy Litinsky - Recent Harvard Graduate - ENFj-Ni
Wes Moss - Private Wealth Manager - ISTj-Ti
Maria Boren - Marketing Executive - ISTj-Se
Chris Russo - Stockbroker - ESTj
Raj Bhakta - Real Estate Developer - ENTj-Ni
Elizabeth Jarosz - Consulting Firm Owner - ENFp-Fi
Stacy Rotner - Attorney - ESFp-Se
John Willenborg - Marketing Director - ESFp
Pamela Day - Investment Firm Partner - ESTj-Te
Jennifer Crisafulli - Real Estate Agent - INTj-Ti
Stacie Jones Upchurch - Restaurateur - ENFj
Bradford Cohen - Attorney - ENTj-Te
Rob Flanagan - Corporate Branding Salesman - ESTj-Si

season 3
Kendra Todd - Real Estate Broker - ISFp -Fe
Tana Goertz - Sales Executive - ENTj -Te
Craig Williams - Shoeshine Business Owner - INTp-Te
Alex Thomason - Attorney - ENTp-Ti
Bren Olswanger - Prosecutor - ENTj-Ni
Chris Shelton - Real Estate Investor - ESFp - Se
Angie McKnight - Gym Franchise Owner - ENFj-Ni
Stephanie Myers - Supply Chain Consultant - ENFp-Fi
Erin Elmore - Attorney - ESFp-Fi
John Gafford - Technology Firm Owner - ENTj-Te
Audrey Evans - Real Estate Agent - ENTp-Ne
Tara Dowdell - Senior Governor Management - ESFp-Fi
Michael Tarshi - Real Estate Developer - ESTp-Se
Kristen Kirchner - Real Estate Financier - ESTp-Ti
Danny Kastner - Marketing Technology Firm Owner - ESFj-Si
Verna Felton - Business Manager - ISFj-Fi
Brian McDowell - Real Estate Broker - ESTj
Todd Everett - Sales Manager - ESTj-Te

season 4
Randal Pinkett - Consulting Firm Owner - INFp-Ni
Rebecca Jarvis - Financial Journalist - ESFj
Alla Wartenberg - Salon & Spa Chain Owner - ESTj Te
Felisha Mason - Real Estate Developer - ENTj Ni
Adam Israelov - Risk Manager - ENFp Ne
Clay Lee - Realtor - ISTp-Te
Marshawn Evans - Recent Law School Graduate - ISTj-Se
Brian Mandelbaum - Print Company Executive - ESFj
Markus Garrison - Inventor - INTj Ne
Jennifer Murphy - Ad Sales Manager - ENTp-Ne
Josh Shaw - Beauty Company Owner - ENTj
James Dillon - Sales Executive - ISFp-Fe
Mark Lamkin - Wealth Manager - ESTp -Se
Kristi Caudell - Sales Executive - ESFp Fi
Toral Mehta - Investment Banker - INTj
Jennifer Wallen - Realty Company Owner - INFj Fi
Chris Valletta - Marketing Executive - ESTj Te
Melissa Holovach - Real Estate Investor - ESFj Si

season 5
Sean Yazbeck - Recruitment Consultant - ESFj-Si
Lee Bienstock - Business Analyst - ENFj-Ni
Allie Jablon - Medical Sales Manager - ESTp
Roxanne Wilson - Appellate Attorney - INFp -Ni
Tammy Trenta - Wealth Manager - INTj-Ne
Michael Laungani - Management Consultant - ENFp-Fi
Tarek Saab - Hi-Tech Manager - ENTp
Charmaine Hunt - Real Estate Consultant - ENFp -Ne
Andrea Lake - Sticker Company Owner - ESTj
Leslie Bourgeois - Realtor - ISFj
Lenny Veltman - Trading Company Owner - ISTj-Se
Bryce Gahagan - Home Builder ESTj-Te
Dan Brody - Clothing Company Owner - ESTj-Si
Brent Buckman - Attorney - ESTj-Te
Theresa Boutross - Psychotherapist - INFj
Stacy Schneider - Criminal Defense Attorney - INTp
Jose "Pepi" Diaz - Attorney - INFp Fe
Summer Zervos - Restaurant Owner - INFj

season 6
Stefani Schaeffer - Defense Attorney - INTj
James Sun - Internet Company Owner - ESFj
Nicole D'Ambrosio - Real Estate Broker - ENFp
Frank Lombardi - Real Estate Developer - ENTp
Kristine Lefebvre - Licensing Attorney -
Heidi Androl - Sales Manager -
Tim Urban - Tutoring Company Owner - ISTp - Si
Angela Ruggiero - Olympic Athlete -
Muna Heaven - Family Law Litigator - ISFj-Fi
Surya Yalamanchili - Brand Manager - ESTj
Jenn Hoffman - Publicist -
Derek Arteta - Entertainment Lawyer - ENTj
Aimee Trottier - Surgical Sales Rep. - INTp
Aaron Altscher - Real Estate Broker - ESTj-Te
Marisa DeMato - Class Action Attorney - ENTp
Michelle Sorro - Real Estate Consultant - ISFj
Carey Sherrell - Marketing Firm Owner - ISFp
Martin Clarke - Attorney / Professor - INTp

season 7 (resorted to youtube clips on this season. Most typings of this season are weak, some particularly so.)
Piers Morgan Tabloid Editor / America's Got Talent Judge - ESTj
Adkins, Trace Country Music Star - ISTp
Alt, Carol Model / Actress - INTj
Lewis, Lennox Heavyweight-Boxing Champion - INFj (Weak typing)
Baldwin, Stephen Actor - ENTp
Ortiz, Tito Mixed Martial Artist - ENFp
Henner, Marilu Actress - ENTj (Weak typing)
Galán, Nely Entrepreneur - ESFj
Pastore, Vincent Actor - ENFj
Finch, Jennie Olympic Gold Medalist - ESFp (Weak typing)
Simmons, Gene KISS Frontman - INTp
Comaneci, Nadia Olympic Gold medalist - ISFj
Fallon, Tiffany Playboy Playmate - ISFp

UK
season 1
Lindsay Bogaard 35 Communications Manager - ISTj
Timothy Campbell 26 Transport Manager - ESFp
Raj Dhonota 30 Internet Entrepreneur - INTj-Ne
Rachel Groves 32 Charity Fundraiser - ENFp
Saira Khan 34 Sales Manager - ESFj-Si
Ben Leary 29 Headhunter - ESTp-Ti
Adele Lock 29 Retail Manager - ESTp-Se
James Max 34 Investment Banker - ENTj
Adenike Ogundoyin 30 Restaurant Manager - ESTp
Matthew Palmer 39 Mature Student - INTj-Ti
Miranda Rose 26 Managing Director - INTp
Sebastian Schrimpff 29 Financial Analyst - ISFp
Miriam Staley 26 Hotel Manager - ENFj-Ni
Paul Torrisi 34 Property Developer - ESTj

season 2
Syed Ahmed 31 Entrepreneur ESTj
Nargis Ara 38 PhD Student - ENFp
Ruth Badger 27 Sales Manager - ESTj-Te
Karen Bremner 34 Lawyer - INTj-Ti
Jo Cameron 35 Human Resources Manager - ENFj-Fe
Michelle Dewberry 26 Telecoms Consultant - ENFp-Fi
Ansell Henry 34 Sales Manager - ISTp-Te
Samuel Judah 35 Product Developer - INTp-Te
Tuan Le 27 Financial adviser - ENFj-Ni
Sharon McAllister 30 Business Lecturer - ISFj - Fi
Mani Sandher 39 Management Consultant - INFp-Ni
Ben Stanberry 33 IT Consultant - ISTj-Ti
Alexa Tilley 28 Management Consultant - ISFj-Fi
Paul Tulip 26 Headhunter - ENTp-Ti

season 3
Simon Ambrose 27 Internet Entrepreneur - ISFp
Ghazal Asif 23 Business Development Manager - ISFj
Tre Azam 27 Marketing and Design Consultant - ESTp
Gerri Blackwood 33 Transport Development Manager - ESTp
Paul Callaghan 27 Ex-British Army Lieutenant - ESFp
Ifti Chaudhri 36 Company Director - ESTj
Kristina Grimes 36 Pharmaceutical Sales Manager - INTp
Katie Hopkins 31 Global Brand Consultant - ENTj
Adam Hosker 27 Car Sales Manager - INTp
Andy Jackson 36 Car Sales Manager - ENFj
Jadine Johnson 27 Financial adviser - ISTj-Se
Sophie Kain 32 Quantum Physicist - INTj
Lohit Kalburgi 25 Telecoms Manager - INFp
Rory Laing 27 Bankrupt Entrepreneur - ISTj-Ti
Naomi Lay 26 Advertising Sales Manager - ESFp
Natalie Wood 29 Housewife - ENFj

season 4
Raef Bjayou 27 Entrepreneur - ENFj
Jenny Celerier 36 Sales Manager - ISTj - Ti
Nicholas de Lacy-Brown 23 Trainee barrister - ISFp -Fe
Sara Dhada 25 International Car Trader - ISFj-Se
Lucinda Ledgerwood 31 Risk Manager - INFj -Ne
Jennifer Maguire 27 Marketing Consultant - ISTj-Se
Lee McQueen 30 Recruitment Sales Manager - ESFj
Lindi Mngaza 22 Business Liaison Manager - ISTp-Si
Kevin Shaw 24 Bank Manager - ENTp-Ne
Simon Smith 35 Satellite Television Engineer - ESTj-Si
Michael Sophocles 25 Telesales Executive - ENFj
Helene Speight 32 Global Pricing Leader - INTp-Te
Ian Stringer 26 Software Sales Manager - ESTp-Ti
Shazia Wahab 35 Company Director - ESTj-Te
Alex Wotherspoon 24 Regional Sales Manager - ENFp-Fi
Claire Young 28 Senior Retail Buyer - ESFp

[Mariano Rajoy]

Season 7
Tito Ortiz - IEE

[Reuben]

I believe I'm SLI Te subtype maybe. Too much Ti Se influence from my mum and my desire to keep peace sometimes turn me into a fake beta NF extrovert.

I feel that Si is the ability to feel. Fe on the other had, is a few ambiguous notches above Si in that Si + Ne is the pure uncorrupted sine wave, or should I be politically correct and note that it is the blue print from which other Function dualities imitate.

Keeping to what I just said, yes just to answer some of your questions, assuming generously that you all do have some, especially regarding to my type, I believe I am SLI.

See you all at stickam.

[Mariano Rajoy]

Si + Ne is the pure uncorrupted sine wave, or should I be politically correct and note that it is the blue print from which other Function dualities imitate.

Interesting. I like it.

[Christy B]

I believe I'm SLI Te subtype maybe. Too much Ti Se influence from my mum and my desire to keep peace sometimes turn me into a fake beta NF extrovert.

I feel that Si is the ability to feel. Fe on the other had, is a few ambiguous notches above Si in that Si + Ne is the pure uncorrupted sine wave, or should I be politically correct and note that it is the blue print from which other Function dualities imitate.

Keeping to what I just said, yes just to answer some of your questions, assuming generously that you all do have some, especially regarding to my type, I believe I am SLI.

See you all at stickam.

BlueBlade... I love you.

Please be my activity partner It could be so much fun!

[Smilingeyes]

On the process - result dichotomy and what it means regarding socionic relations. And keys to acting correctly.

Process-result relates to the appreciation of different functions, to how much energy is spent with certain tasks and how much importance is given them. The big divide is between rationals and irrationals.

Rationals are intensive and process-oriented and care about the task itself when it's something to do with ST or NF clubs that is humanist ideals and ethics and OTOH the execution of a practical task. They are sort of slip-shod and oriented towards quick results (have no personal investment on how the result is reached) when oriented towards NT and SF things. Irrationals vice versa.

When process meets result, the process stickles to a certain way of doing things even when good results can situationally be gained by doing something different. What is important here is that process-oriented people have difficulty adapting to others' working styles. They are invested in doing what they do in the way they perceive to be the best. And it remains the role of the result-oriented people to ... fill the holes, adapt to the situation and finalize the result, or to act as ... raw material, for the process-person. The process-oriented people sometimes defend their way of doing things even when someone else is trying to help them or introduce an improvement. They are personally invested in the task itself and take pride in it. Contrarywise people of result-category seem to be more able to freely cooperate.

The significant part comes next. This creates the loops of benefit and loops of control between partners of opposite rationality.

This creates a natural division of labour between partners rational vs. irrational. This causes problems in the form of transmitting to the other person that you naturally devalue the kind of things the other values and are yourself concentrated on something the other finds irrelevant. So there is less of an affinity between these types but in a work environment they don't step on each others' toes as easily. Fundamentally they optimally end up dividing labour and trusting each other to do their part. They are not working in completely different areas, so there is a border area in which they can discuss and share information. Essentially they form a chain of activity in which one partner finishes what the other starts. In this situation the one who is finishing is often more dependent on the other relying on the other to produce good results, yet also more free in certain ways because the other is unable to control/evaluate the value of the end-product. Furthermore, each is able to assume an assisting position of result-category in which they help in secondary parts of the others' primary task. Thus mutual respect for the others' abilities, and mutual willingness to assume an assisting position in the others' area of importance are the requirements for good cooperation between these groups.

The identical temperaments compete for the same tasks. They cooperate excellently in result-oriented tasks. They end up being rivals in process-oriented tasks (though ones who tend to have respect for each other).

Duals temperament situations are completely dependent on whether the situation is closer to true duality or being contrary. There is added respect because partners value similar kind of activities. If the partners' habits of acting in a process-way are contrary, the situation is extremely difficult. There is no understanding of what the other is doing, there is just ... mutual correction. Each undos and redos everything the other has done. There is a simultaneously something of a pull and recognition of the others' results, but also a strong repulsion of the way the other does things. This is also the root of the huge arguments mentioned in semi-dual descriptions. I never fight as loud with anyone as when I'm arguing with my contrary partner over a process.

The dual partnership requires that partners don't under any circumstances venture into the area of the others' identified process. The partner must be trusted. Cooperation in 'result' areas must be valued and the other must be left alone to do the things he cares about. Even if you hate the way the other does something, you must not get involved under any circumstances. For this reason the opposite club thing is vital. A dual partnership limits each partner to work in their selected area of expertise and is in that way a sort of constricting partnership, yet it also allows each partner to focus in what they find to be important and do that in a maximally powerful way and freely creative way. While the other partner is concentrating on the dual functions, they are doing a good job in supporting the other.

What's somewhat important is that this is not a partnership that supports acting within the same project. The partners' strongest areas do not interlock. They don't form a chain of succesful actions. It is difficult to see the value the other brings. Neither do the partners demand a lot from each other. This is the reason there's an illusionary description which claims that partners create laziness in each other, and also explains the characteristic indifference and hospitality that dual partners give to each other.

This all also gives some explanation to the explanations of why dual partnerships are best when participants know each other through a very long period of time. OTOH this gives them time to see the long-term support they receive from each other (as opposite to the short term-support given by activity/mirror partners) and also gives them a chance to suppress the development of the other partners' contrary functions which reduces opportunities for great big fights.

Duals and identicals help you specialize.
Mirrors and activity partners help you diversify.

These ideas were clarified after I had a long discussion with one of my longest standing friends who is a conflict partner but with whom I have actually had great success in doing projects with and who I curiously simultaneously respect enormously and ... sort of don't.

[Smilingeyes]

Another tv-show:
NYPD blue
Very beta on the whole. Despite the obvious quality and themes that resonate to an extent, most characters in the series really get on my nerves.

John Kelly (character and actor very different, but most easily understood as either ISFp (the character by itself) or as INTp if you take into account the way the actor plays the role.
Sipowicz - ESTp
Fancy - ESTj
Abandando - INFj
Medavoy - ENFp
Martinez - ISTj
Sylvia - INTp
Laura Michaels (John Kelly's ex) - ESTp
Janice Licalsi - ESFp
Bobby Simone - ENFj
Diane Russell - ESTp
John Irvin (the gay secretary) - ESFj
Lesniak - INTj
Andy Jr - INFp

[Ms. Kensington]

Season 7
Tito Ortiz - IEE

really?

[Smilingeyes]

Warning, the following message contains language that some may find offensive.

This is a personal lament on Rick's thread in the general forum. I don't want to interrupt any other conversation on the subject or even particularly intend this text for anyone to read or react to. I am just recording my own reaction such as it was.

----
Removed material.
See end of post.

----

Delusional people make me feel annoyed. Unlike material things, people can't simply be fixed. One might want to help them or like some aspects of them or make attempts to close a gap and just give things to such people, but it almost never works. It becomes wasted effort and these people just drag you down with them if you try to give help. So I find it a practical solution to usually stay away from such people, just give the kind of help that doesn't tax my resources. What really becomes troublesome when these delusionals start thinking they're geniuses and start spreading their hallucinations to other people, people who may have some important function or role in the general world or my personal world. That really makes me feel helpless and rejected. I don't want to fight, and I don't want to argue with people who don't use evidence or have any motivation to actually find reasonable or profitable solutions to things. I'm not one of those people who talk just because they like the sound of their own voice, so I don't like to spend time trying to mold or control people. So I just look and watch delusions spread and lament what the world is coming to, spending my time creating profit in those areas which support such behaviour, staying away from loonies.

As much as I dislike D Trump, there is something he tends to say that is unfortunately true. "If you hang out with losers, you become a loser yourself." (I like watching the UK version of Apprentice and I like it so much I sometimes watch the grating original US version as well.)

The reason I post such a message is because I think it is beneficial for people to have available even the uncensored negative thoughts of people so that they may look at them.
I'm really actually am also concerned with the fact that I'm exagerrating in the message above. Even before pressing the submit reply button down there, I'd like to rewrite it a bit, to make it less offensive, but I also think that would be wrong on a more general level. I'm going to leave it as it is, because of the fact that the commentary on Rick's ideas of what subtypes are actually has merit, and because of the aformentioned benefit from uncensored material in the studying of types. Also I think that a warning and reminder of the fact that Rick is not actually a "respected socionist" himself, he just hangs out with such more than other forum members, is in order.

And once again, apologies to Rick or anyone else who feels harmed by this message in an emotional, social or any other way. Please ignore any or all of this post as you see fit.
----

I rethought about the issue and decided to remove the actual commentary. Basically, I don't need the hassle that forum arguments cause. There's plenty of people on the forum who just like to fight and like the sound of their own voice. I have no interest in competing with these people. If that causes a situation in which something important I might have had to say remains unsaid (or as in this case, is quickly removed), I guess that's your loss. Tough cookies.

Again, for the record, of the remaining message, the only thing relating strictly personally to Rick is me saying that he is not a respected socionist. As proof of that I consider the interlocution and comments made by Lytov with and on Rick. Basically Lytov laughed his arse off at the mention of Rick's ideas and projects. Lytov, while not my favourite person in the whole wide world, has in my opinion shown the most consistency in using a scientific approach towards socionics (for whatever it's worth) and I count that as a merit to him.

[Smilingeyes]

Merry Christmas and such.
I'm sorry about all the lateness with everything. I have some pms unanswered. I will get back to them when I can. My current work projects leave me little time to hang here or pretty much do anything except work and rest a bit every now and then. My new job's a complete hassle, the workplace is under-staffed by about 60% and I'm responsible for the busiest part of the clinic.

On a more positive note, the economy. I managed this past year about even but the future seems amazing right now. Of course, one can't rely on anything but cash in hand, but I've recently invested about 90% of my cash into the stock exchange, buying some things with absolutely ridiculous prices. If you have the means to do so and are reading this, you might like to look at the current situation in the world from that perspective, as an opportunity.

The future is bright and glorious, but only work makes one free.

Bye again and take care of yourselves everyone.

[eunice]

Just a kind of catalog of Apprentices. I thought I should make one somewhere and this for me, is as good a place as any.

Given that there just isn't enough data on many of these people in the shows themselves, whatever is written below is simply my best guess based on what I see on the show. I haven't bothered to do more background research on these guys.

US
season 1
D Trump - ENTp-Ti
George Ross - ISTj-Ti
Carol, the female judge - ISFp-Fe
Bill Rancic - Cigar Business Owner INFp
Kwame Jackson - Investment Manager
Amelia "Amy" Henry - Account Manager
Nick Warnock - Copier Salesman - ESTp
Troy McClain - Mortgage Broker - ENTj
Katrina Campins - Real Estate Agent - ESTj
Heidi Bressler - Senior Account Executive
Omarosa Manigault-Stallworth - Political Consultant - ISTj
Ereka Vetrini - Marketing Manager
Tammy Lee - Stockbroker
Jessie Connors - Chiropractic Business Owner
Kristi Frank - Restaurant Owner
Bowie Hogg - Account Executive
Sam Solovey - Business Director - ENFj
Jason Curtis - Real Estate Manager
David Gould - Venture Capitalist ISTp Si

Why is Nick Warnock an ESTp? He seems rather reserved and lack the "Se" factor. In terms of making decision, he takes a more "top-down" approach and is not open to ideas from his team members. As for risk taking, he tends to be more cautious and take the conventional approach, as compared to Troy McClain.

[UDP]

Troy McClure.

[Smilingeyes]

Why is Nick Warnock an ESTp? He seems rather reserved and lack the "Se" factor. In terms of making decision, he takes a more "top-down" approach and is not open to ideas from his team members. As for risk taking, he tends to be more cautious and take the conventional approach, as compared to Troy McClain.

I'll start with Troy. He's a definite ideas man. One of the other candidates gives an analysis of him that he brainstorms but requires someone else to choose the idea from the multitude he suggests and to run with it. In the apartment-letting task Troy sees an opportunity to outwit and be unfair toward the opponent, and he immediately seizes it. He is a career motivational speaker and likes talking to audiences. He is as obvious an ENT type as possible and the only question I had was whether he is an ENTP or an ENTj. He very much dislikes Bill Rancic who is an IP and befriends another sort of ethical introvert, Kwame, easily. these suggest ENTj rather than ENTp. Furthermore the habit of outpouring multitudes of ideas instead of just one big one, the easygoingness with crowds are also things that suggest Ni instead of Ne. Of the forum residents he seems quite close to what Joy is like. He too has a major social role function Fe. He easily expends emotional energy on Sam in the early episodes.

Nick... there's nothing nice or social about him. He's both a commander, and a doer. He doesn't push his thoughts to the forefront so as to direct his team, so he doesn't show Te. Rather he pontificates privately to the audience and ... educates them. He is an introvert thinker. Ti is what he uses most. So the question becomes, why ESTp-Ti rather than ISTj-Ti, ENTp-Ti or INTj-Ti. Ok, well I wouldn't oppose ENTp-Ti for him, since that's pretty damn close to ESTp-Ti. But Nick doesn't give as much of the attitude of "I'm so clever" as Ne types do. Furthermore he acts very much like a "player" in the way he aggressively goes for Amy. So I have to consider him a beta rather than an alpha. So Why ESTp rather than ISTj? He doesn't put on airs the way ISTjs tend to. He seems to know he's being a sneaky little rat and accept that. In social situations ISTjs take the role of the magistrate, they're free to act because "justice" supports them, see Omarosa. ESTps who are unable to just directly pummel their opposition on the other hand tend to be very restrained, analyzing their opposition and looking for the weak spots. That is what we primarily see from Nick.

(added material)
Nick is good friends with Sam, and seems to be the only one who actually really likes him, to the point that he swears vengeance on the others for Sam's tossing. Sam is as Fe as anyone cares to be. Nick from the very first spends an enormous amount of energy on hatching plans of how to destroy his competitors rather than how to win challenges. It's particularly evident on when he tries to get rid of Kwame in the restaurant challenge. He also has immediate and strong rapport with Trump. Trump identifies with Nick and protects him. In fact this "protecting their identicals" is hugely evident in all the conversations between the 3 judges throughout all seasons. Sometimes the socionics issue goes to ridiculous extent as in season one when Amy is chosen to move from one team to another by Nick for socionical and romantical reasons. In a task in which Amy does badly, Trump uses Nick's choice of Amy as an indicator that Amy is an effective person in a team and decides to fire Katrina instead, and this happens after Amy has chosen to identify Nick as the more effective partner in the team, again for socionical and romantic reasons thereby protecting him. Apprentice US is pretty much a socionics battle ground with a little bit of business thrown in. ...

And incidentally, ESTps are generally more cautious than ENTjs. They just use such completely different tools to show this, that it's not always easy to see this. Let's just put it like this... If Tony Blair had been ESTp, he would not have idealistically marched off hand in hand with Bush to the Iraq war.

[Smilingeyes]

I feel this apprentice thing could be developed into a much larger "look" on personalities and their interactions.
Anyway... of the US season 1 Kwame was actually the most difficult for me, simply because was always collected and always on the subject matter. It was difficult for me to see the personal touch. Anyway, I feel somewhat vindicated by his personal relations. Firstly he's the only one that seems to have an alliance of sorts with Omarosa (to his own detriment and eventual destruction).
On this answer page:
http://www.kwamejackson.com/about/qa.html
he mentions that the people from the show he keeps in touch with are first and foremost Troy (ENTj), but also Katrina (ESTj), Ereka (ESFj), and Amy (INTp). I think that's quite telling. If Kwame was for example IP temperament, that list would much more likely hold Bill, Nick and Tammy. Also, in the final, the people Kwame chooses are Troy (ENTj) and Omarosa (ISTj) over Nick (ESTp) and Katrina (ESTj). This fits together quite well.

[eunice]

Hi Smilex, I actually have a different interpretation of the types of some of the contestants.

Troy: he is indeed an ideas man, but I also find him more practical and down-to-earth than most ENTjs. He doesn't seem to believe in theoretical knowledge and contributes to his team based on his past experiences. Moreover, his actions seem to be rather impulsive and seem to lack a sense of long term perspective. He has been described as a "loose cannonball" by Trump as well and Trump remarked that he would not trust him with multi-million businesses to handle in the long run. Even though ENTjs are generally risk-taking, they tend to take calculated risks and are effective long-term planners.

Kwame: I agree that Kwame is an ethical introvert. However, he seems to be too passive to be an ISFj or even a gamma type. Like a Fi type, he appears calm, collected, and patient. However, unlike ISFj managers, he appears rather "hands-off" and takes a "wait-and-see" approach, assuming that things will work out eventually. This is rather evident in the last episode when Omarosa made a mistake in the transportation. Instead, Troy has played a more active role to a certain extent in solving the issue. An ISFj would have been more decisive in his actions and be more eager in want to resolve an issue immediately. Moreover, his vibes and energy level seems more Si/Ne than Se/Ni.

Nick and Amy: Nick seems rather reserved in his interactions with Amy. Throughout the series, I have the impression that Amy has been "playing" with him. In the scene where they are at the bar, she seems to induce Fe and try to get a reaction out of him, bringing him out of his reserved nature. I find Nick as someone cold with a calculated mind, and I do agree with you that his style of "winning a challenge" is to thrash his opponent. As for Amy, she seems a bit "empty" to be an INTp. Remember her last challenge where she has to be interviewed by a management team? She has been described as been "irritating", "empty" and "lacking substance in her answers", basically giving answers without meaning anything.

Bill: Interesting that you think he is INFp. Why is that so? Frankly, I could not gather much about him from the show.

Sam: When I first saw him, I thought he is mentally unsound and could never be typed. From the first episode, I wanted him to be fired immediately 'cos I couldn't stand his actions and his rationale behind them. A lot of his actions are illogical, unrealistic and a waste of time.

[eunice]

I feel this apprentice thing could be developed into a much larger "look" on personalities and their interactions.
Anyway... of the US season 1 Kwame was actually the most difficult for me, simply because was always collected and always on the subject matter. It was difficult for me to see the personal touch. Anyway, I feel somewhat vindicated by his personal relations. Firstly he's the only one that seems to have an alliance of sorts with Omarosa (to his own detriment and eventual destruction).
On this answer page:
http://www.kwamejackson.com/about/qa.html
he mentions that the people from the show he keeps in touch with are first and foremost Troy (ENTj), but also Katrina (ESTj), Ereka (ESFj), and Amy (INTp). I think that's quite telling. If Kwame was for example IP temperament, that list would much more likely hold Bill, Nick and Tammy. Also, in the final, the people Kwame chooses are Troy (ENTj) and Omarosa (ISTj) over Nick (ESTp) and Katrina (ESTj). This fits together quite well.

Lol.....Omarosa is the reason behind his downfall. I never understood the rationale behind his actions. I mean, I would never choose someone if he/she has a dubious attitude and character irregardless how competent they are at work. In consideration that they live in the same quarters, he should be well-informed about her personality in terms of how badly she gets along with people and probably her working style from the ladies. The worst thing is she is very incompetent in her work as well.

[Smilingeyes]

Hi

Lol.....Omarosa is the reason behind his downfall. I never understood the rationale behind his actions. I mean, I would never choose someone if he/she has a dubious attitude and character irregardless how competent they are at work. In consideration that they live in the same quarters, he should be well-informed about her personality in terms of how badly she gets along with people and probably her working style from the ladies. The worst thing is she is very incompetent in her work as well.

Yes, but Omarosa back then wasn't as bad as she is these days. During the season 1 there were many situations particularly in the early period when someone actually gave her high praise. If your own type happens to be very close to hers, it's easy to have a good rapport with her. That is one reason I think Kwame's type can't be too different from hers. Otherwise he should have seen something wrong. I personally would be more inclined to change my opinion to ISTj than to INFj, because what I see most is Se. Kwame is a man of direct action from what I see, though I do consider him difficult to type because he is so collected.

Hi Smilex, I actually have a different interpretation of the types of some of the contestants.

Troy: he is indeed an ideas man, but I also find him more practical and down-to-earth than most ENTjs. He doesn't seem to believe in theoretical knowledge and contributes to his team based on his past experiences. Moreover, his actions seem to be rather impulsive and seem to lack a sense of long term perspective. He has been described as a "loose cannonball" by Trump as well and Trump remarked that he would not trust him with multi-million businesses to handle in the long run. Even though ENTjs are generally risk-taking, they tend to take calculated risks and are effective long-term planners.

....

He lacks an academic education because he spent time taking care of a sickly relative or something. Impulsive and lacking long term perspective... That's basically Joy. EJ-Ni types are extremely irresponsible because in their world view it's the other person who carries the risks, the aggressor. That's why Troy pretty much just heckles. He doesn't push his ideas through, he waits others to pick up an idea of his. As in the flea market task. It's only when paired with someone like Kwame who supports the ideas with his actions that something starts to happen. Kwame is the guy who pulls of Troy's stunts, like with the signing baseballs thing.

Moreso, you have to remember that it's an ENTp describing Troy as a loose cannonball. If Troy was an ENTp instead of an ENTj (and clearly he's an ENT type) there would be more rapport with these two, but Trump tends to make fun of him and doesn't like his style. If you don't see him as an ENTj, what do you see him as?

Kwame: I agree that Kwame is an ethical introvert. However, he seems to be too passive to be an ISFj or even a gamma type.

What do you mean? All Ixxx temperamented people are somewhat passive. ISFjs are actually often heckled for their passiveness. Many people see them as corporate slaves, passively accomplishing a certain task for the group without making any noise of themselves.

Like a Fi type, he appears calm, collected, and patient. However, unlike ISFj managers, he appears rather "hands-off" and takes a "wait-and-see" approach, assuming that things will work out eventually. This is rather evident in the last episode when Omarosa made a mistake in the transportation. Instead, Troy has played a more active role to a certain extent in solving the issue. An ISFj would have been more decisive in his actions and be more eager in want to resolve an issue immediately. Moreover, his vibes and energy level seems more Si/Ne than Se/Ni.

No. That is not how ISFjs operate as a group. They are guardians, not juggernauts.

Nick and Amy: Nick seems rather reserved in his interactions with Amy. Throughout the series, I have the impression that Amy has been "playing" with him. In the scene where they are at the bar, she seems to induce Fe and try to get a reaction out of him, bringing him out of his reserved nature. I find Nick as someone cold with a calculated mind, and I do agree with you that his style of "winning a challenge" is to thrash his opponent. As for Amy, she seems a bit "empty" to be an INTp. Remember her last challenge where she has to be interviewed by a management team? She has been described as been "irritating", "empty" and "lacking substance in her answers", basically giving answers without meaning anything.

What do you mean? Many INTps are empty, particularly if they're high Ni, like Amy. They just go along with whatever the aggressor Se types give them. Anyway, I do agree with you that Amy plays Nick.

Bill: Interesting that you think he is INFp. Why is that so? Frankly, I could not gather much about him from the show.

I'll give more analysis on him at a later date.

Sam: When I first saw him, I thought he is mentally unsound and could never be typed. From the first episode, I wanted him to be fired immediately 'cos I couldn't stand his actions and his rationale behind them. A lot of his actions are illogical, unrealistic and a waste of time.

Given that you're INFj, that would seem to be a reasonable reaction to an ENFj.

[krieger]

EJ-Ni types are extremely irresponsible because in their world view it's the other person who carries the risks, the aggressor.

I take it you're saying that because Ej-Ni is Empowering, while the Se of the Ej's dual is Limiting...

I'm always a bit puzzled by how Creating Ni (or Si) is Empowering... It seems to me that it has something to do with using a certain trick without fully understanding how it works behind the screens despite knowing that it is pretty complicated. A kind of behavior that makes people go "do you actually know what you're doing?" to which the answer is "no, exciting isn't it?"... Us Ij's ignore the kind of information involved until we feel we properly understand it, but Ej's have a less restrictive attitude towards it.

Anyway, not meaning to hijack the thread. Keep up the good writing.

[FDG]

I take it you're saying that because Ej-Ni is Empowering, while the Se of the Ej's dual is Limiting...

I'm always a bit puzzled by how Creating Ni (or Si) is Empowering... It seems to me that it has something to do with using a certain trick without fully understanding how it works behind the screens despite knowing that it is pretty complicated. A kind of behavior that makes people go "do you actually know what you're doing?" to which the answer is "no, exciting isn't it?"... Us Ij's ignore the kind of information involved until we feel we properly understand it, but Ej's have a less restrictive attitude towards it.

Anyway, not meaning to hijack the thread. Keep up the good writing.

Nice observation (as most of yours). What happens to me as an ENTj - if you accept this typing, of course - is an even more "interesting" phenomenon. People seem to think that I know what I am doing and that I can give them advice on how to do it, yet I feel like this trust is somewhat pushed or built on me around nothing, since in those situations I rarely feel like I have mastered the task. My understanding of this whole mess was that this chain of events is what pushes the EJ-Ni towards Te (that is, actually acquiring certainty of knowledge in the given task).

A pratical example: an ISFj small business owner that I barely knew asked me to work as a translator for him because "it looked like I could speak and write in english quite well". Yet I held no degrees or titles that certified that I am an expert on the matter. This type of behavior somehow forced me to really learn to speak and write in english decently.

[eunice]

Yes, but Omarosa back then wasn't as bad as she is these days. During the season 1 there were many situations particularly in the early period when someone actually gave her high praise. If your own type happens to be very close to hers, it's easy to have a good rapport with her. That is one reason I think Kwame's type can't be too different from hers. Otherwise he should have seen something wrong. I personally would be more inclined to change my opinion to ISTj than to INFj, because what I see most is Se. Kwame is a man of direct action from what I see, though I do consider him difficult to type because he is so collected.

I would have thought that Kwame had chosen Omarosa partly because of their similarity in ethnicity. I agree that Kwame is rather difficult to type because he is so collected. To a certain extent, his calm demeanor had brought him far in the competition because he doesn't open his mouth at the wrong time. I didn't think that he is one of Trump's favorites and Trump might not have expected him to come this far and he could not fire him either because Kwame has not made a major mistake so far, except for his choice of Omarosa to be his team member.

He lacks an academic education because he spent time taking care of a sickly relative or something. Impulsive and lacking long term perspective... That's basically Joy. EJ-Ni types are extremely irresponsible because in their world view it's the other person who carries the risks, the aggressor. That's why Troy pretty much just heckles. He doesn't push his ideas through, he waits others to pick up an idea of his. As in the flea market task. It's only when paired with someone like Kwame who supports the ideas with his actions that something starts to happen. Kwame is the guy who pulls of Troy's stunts, like with the signing baseballs thing.

Moreso, you have to remember that it's an ENTp describing Troy as a loose cannonball. If Troy was an ENTp instead of an ENTj (and clearly he's an ENT type) there would be more rapport with these two, but Trump tends to make fun of him and doesn't like his style. If you don't see him as an ENTj, what do you see him as?

Se-ESTp. Speaking of the signing baseball incident, Bill Rancic and Nick Warnock seem to react very strongly against it because they saw it as misleading the public. Frankly, I didn't see anything wrong about it because Troy didn't promote Kwame as a basketball player. All he did was cleverly encouraging people to get his autograph on basketballs. To a certain extent, I thought it was a smart move because the public had inferred incorrectly from a few facts given during Troy's promotion.

What do you mean? Many INTps are empty, particularly if they're high Ni, like Amy. They just go along with whatever the aggressor Se types give them. Anyway, I do agree with you that Amy plays Nick.

With Te in their ego block, INTps will strive for factual accuracy in their understanding in anything they come across. In Amy's case, she seems to be "smoking through" in her interviews, not sure about what she is talking about and lacking confidence when she has to present herself to some professionals. To a certain extent, she seems to be more of a team player rather than an independent leader. I agree with you that she has some Gulenko's "Victim" tendencies though. She knows how to align herself with the stronger players in the game and lead herself to victory.