Is it the same for other conflicting types? Would a Ni INTp have less trouble with a Si ESFj than with a Fe ESFj, and a Te INTp get along better with a Fe ESFj? And what about other constellations, like for example Activity?Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
If there is anything written on this, I don't know where to find it. Is there a general consensus on the compatibility between subtypes? What is your personal opinion on the existence of a general pattern here?
My answers would have to be in order: Yes. Yes. Yes.Is it the same for other conflicting types? Would a Ni INTp have less trouble with a Si ESFj than with a Fe ESFj, and a Te INTp get along better with a Fe ESFj? And what about other constellations, like for example Activity?
Of partners within quadra I've been thinking this since ages. But I was very surprised when I found situations in which the subtype-effect was stronger than the 'closeness of quadra'-effect.
There is no general consensus as there isn't even a general consensus on the existence of subtypes. On the pattern I have nothing else but what I've said already here in the last few posts. It seems that judging functions attract judging functions and perceiving attracts perceiving, independently of all other matters and potentially stronger than any other socionic relation. But is it really so? I'm not yet certain that it's really the strongest relation-affecting matter. I'm tingling excited about this at the moment.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I'm far from settled as well. My reasoning went as follows:Thanks for the interest.
I'm not actually sure we're agreeing though. At the moment I'm feeling that e.g. a Ti ESTp and a Ne INFj would have more trouble with each other than a Ti ESTp and a Fi INFj. Also that a Ti ESTp and a Ti ISTj would have less trouble than a Ti ESTp and a Se ISTj. Does that work for you? I'd like to get more opinions on this because my opinion on the matter is far from settled.
suppose that on the J-P scale, a Ti estp is more J than a Se estp
suppose further that a Ne INFj is more P than an Fi INFj
suppose again that the more similar on the p-j scale, the better two parties get along,
therefore, the Ti estp would get along better with the Ne INFj
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
hahaha, well put.
Yes, I guessed that was the logic you were using. I've seen others opine something similar. I agree with the beginning but what I disagree with is the idea that a Ne INFj would be more judging than a Ti ESTp, by the very least in the matter of social behaviour. This is in my opinion a matter in which the rationality of the temperament is an entirely different matter from the judging quality of the preferred function. I think even people who argue that a person with irrational temperament has always a superior aptitude of perceiving behaviour would have to agree that people who try to achieve a certain kind of result are far more likely to achieve that kind of a result than others who are trying to avoid it.
Let's take another kind of a situation. Let's say that a natural born frenchman who likes the language of Russia and a natural born russian who likes the language of France meet. The frenchman speaks russian to the russian, but the russian speaks french to the frenchman. And though both try really hard to be as much like to the other person as they can, they end up being disliked by the other one because they did not follow the other person's expectations. In the same way I believe a creative rational will end up being far more perceptive in a social situation than a judging irrational.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
No dude everyone knows dragons dont exist. I put my Fist through a Kangaroo's chest and devoured its heart. They are known for defensive properties.
Ok. What i suppose i meant with "Act" as an ISTj is i could try very hard to use all of their functions etc. Outwardly i could try pretend like they were my strenghts. My father is one so i do know how he works quite well. I would make a shitty ISTj though.I could act like an ISTj if i wanted
I rather doubt that. It's very difficult to really thoroughly understand a type not one's own and it's far more difficult to understand a type with which one does not share a temperament. So, I doubt you could use accepting Ti at all. But if you suggest the same for creative Ti, suggest that you could act like an ESTp and still retain the same function strengths that you do now... sure, if you do it only for a short while and half-heartedly but if there's learning it's a different story. The brain adapts.
If your saying i could act as an ESTp for a short period your probablly right. It would be likely that in trying so hard i would repress my natural ones so they would become weaker. If i gave equal considerations to all my functions, the alignment should appear for me as an ENFp.
One strange occurance that i have witnessed recently is that i believe i have swapped subtype. I realised i was using too much. As i dropped off on the Se focus, i have started to walk goofier and less co-ordinated. I am less focused on my walk and more natural. Im also more dreamy and careless. My imagination has become stronger however.
So have i swapped fromto
subtype? I have no idea. Have i drifted away from my core or closer to it?
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
Ok, gotcha on this. So, an ESTp Ti would still be more "fixed" in his evaluation and behaviour than an Ne INFj because of its focus on the given function. Makes sense.
Good example. I can only spot one potential problem: if we say that a given type X expects and reiceves in the most natural way the information from his dual (which might, or might not, be true) and has the most difficulty with information reiceved from his conflictor, then the expectations are reversed, and the more the conflictor is similar to the dual, the more the relationship would be favourable. Of course, I do not know how to incastonate the single relationship into this systematization since it would probably be necessary to differentiate every single pair.Let's take another kind of a situation. Let's say that a natural born frenchman who likes the language of Russia and a natural born russian who likes the language of France meet. The frenchman speaks russian to the russian, but the russian speaks french to the frenchman. And though both try really hard to be as much like to the other person as they can, they end up being disliked by the other one because they did not follow the other person's expectations. In the same way I believe a creative rational will end up being far more perceptive in a social situation than a judging irrational.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
That particular post, or are we speaking more generally? I'm sorry if I've inspired any painful feelings or memories in you. I wish I could do something to make you feel better. Perhaps you could explain to me more about socionics. Since I'm assuming this is a relatively new pursuit, hopefully it won't have too many negative associations.
And while we're talking, I can make up some tea or hot chocolate, put on some gentle music, curl up in a warm blanket, and listen to the wind and rain outside. If you like, we can invite some well-behaved friends, too.
Feel any better?
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
That post, I think. Besides the socionics, there isn't much similarity. You just happen to be the clearest concrete-accepting-Fi person around. I get those memories a lot. That person was important to me over a period of ten years, theoretically more I guess, since she doesn't seem to have stopped being important. Ah. Annoying. I prefer being in control of myself, focused.
If this was anyone else, I'd be sure you were making fun of meIt's good, it's all good.
I'll answer your pm soon, just having time troubles.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I don't find that strange at all. People do that all the time. Most people around here just either ignore the effect, invent alternative explanations for it or are too dumb to notice it.One strange occurance that i have witnessed recently is that i believe i have swapped subtype. I realised i was using too much
That would depend on what you define as your core. Your call.So have i swapped from
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I think I'm about half-getting you here again and guessing the rest. If I'm off track in my guesses, please correct me, but here goes...
You would be talking about eg. an intuitive INFj and an intuitive INFp. With MBTI notation that would seem similar. But when we note that one is accepting,introvert,resolute and tactical while the other is being creating,extrovert(function, not temperamet),judicious and strategic we'll have to accept that they haven't really become the same, and the information received from one hasn't really become _that_ similar to that received from the other.
Secondly, what you said might still hold true and I think it does. Socionical relations have been charted mostly on the standards of 1. model-A matters and 2. only accepting subtypes exist. Therefore there's an immediate suspicion of whether the standard description of 'conflict' can really be attributed to cases when one partner is accepting and the other creative subtype.
Thirdly Augusta's original observation was that there were conflictor-married couples. If there wasn't a mechanism that explained a sort of attraction between the two, it would be reasonable to believe they wouldn't really happen. Yet they do.
Fourthly, it seems to be very typical for many socionists to type creative subtypes as their quasi-identicals, again causing probable error in descriptions of observed relations.
Anyway, it's a mess. But an interesting one.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
If this was anyone else, I'd be sure you were making fun of meNo, I meant it! I swear I really did! I wasn't mocking you!
...
'Course, now that I reread it, it does sound a little sarcastic.
...
Silly gut reaction. *scowls at self in mirror, then resolves to punish said gut with broccoli and squash for dinner*
Oh, and take your time. No worries. Just don't forget about me, please.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
Hey, I remember you.Silly gut reaction. *scowls at self in mirror, then resolves to punish said gut with broccoli and squash for dinner*
Oh, and take your time. No worries. Just don't forget about me, please.
Try cabbage. It's a real gut-punisher.
Broccoli is very healthy. Bonus points for anyone who eats broccoli.
...
Actually I'm making this message just to record another milestone. I finally managed to have someone die at my hands. Though the fault lies mainly with the bastard working the evening shift at the hospital that sent her back to me "since there was nothing wrong with her".
As experiences go this one managed to be both monumental and banal in a stupid way.
Mental note: Kill less people.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
not exactly the milestone I'd ever want to see anyone reach. sorry to hear.
Good job!
Try cabbage. It's a real gut-punisher.
Broccoli is very healthy. Bonus points for anyone who eats broccoli.
Don't know what else to say.
Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.
On homes
I haven't been writing here particularly much since Ive been feeling that most of what is discussed these days is a rehash and most questions on socionics that people ask I've already answered so it doesn't seem to important to repeat myself all the time.
I'm now writing here mainly because this is the only place I've felt comfortable expressing my negative feelings for quite some time. That's something really rare. Anyway, I've been handling this thing like a blog on the basis that it might be possible for people to learn something about what ever type I am at any particular time by reading it. I continue to suppose that I'm an ESTj and so the continuation in using this thread.
First of all, I no longer find it easy to act ENTj, I'm much more complete ESTj these days. The discomfort I experienced in the beginning is gone. There is no longer any need for the showy bursts of anger that I used to experience. The sense of duty, complimented by a sense of estrangement from other people is now all-encompassing. There is a sort of hopelessness that is balanced by a feel of personal control I haven't had for a long time. A strange thing that somewhat interests me is that in my clinical work I'm loved by my patients. Not a week goes by that I don't hear extra compliments and favourable comparisons to other, more experienced clinical doctors. This despite that I feel a sort of mixed disgust, fear and hatred towards my patients. It is these feelings that feed my sense of duty and politeness towards them. I need to mask my actual feelings somehow. It also pushes me toward greater exertions in making correct diagnoses and finding better treatments for their ailments. I do not expect any leniency or any mercy if I happen to make a mistake. Naturally I do make them though usually I'm the only one to notice. This feeds my humility. I can not rest. And yet, still despite being constantly stressed I'm sleeping better than for years. My insomnia is gone. All the problems around me seem easy enough to handle as long as I give all of my attention to the problems around me.
Interestingly it feels impossible that I could have written some of the things I have written on the forum. Some of the messages seem so useless, so odd. Even the idea that I've spent such a major amount of time with a simple technique like socionics feels strange.
Another interesting feeling I have is as if everyone around me was intellectually particularly slow. Now usually this is of course correct since I treat a whole lot of dementia patients but that's not the real issue. The real issue is that this is not accompanied by a feeling of personal intelligence. I mean, I actually do feel sharper than I used to a couple of years ago, but my own personal failures are constantly so apparent to me that I do not feel I am a particularly smart or good or succesfull in any way. The problem is just that the people around me seem so abysmally horribly stupid that it's almost surreal. No, not surreal. Actually everything feels very concrete at the moment, very not -surreal. They feel more like blocks of wood, or animatronic dolls.
Yet another interesting thing that I've found is a common ground with the main character of "American psycho". I used to think that the book was simply a pulp novel about a mixture of high class life style and depraved violence. I used to ignore the several cases in which the main character suggests that his main motivation is simply to blend in, quite strange coming from a character that cuts people up for fun. Yet it is exactly this attempt to blend in, to imitate mechanically the actions of others that is the primary cause of the violence. Unable to see the full purpose of the behaviours he imitates, the main character feels victimized by others, having to follow nonsensical rules. He simultaneously detests anyone who breaks the rules of for example "having to wear designer clothes" yet he also hates the rule itself and what it does to him. His actual warm feelings are toward a person who is simply out of the world that he inhabits, towards his secretary who is simply too genuine, too warm, too caring to have anything to do with the rules he imagines. From the main character's point of view his murderous urges are not only random aggression, they are acts of vengeance. Read into that what you will. I also feel the urge to remind that I too cut people up, well, weekly. It's just that people ask me to do that and thank me afterwards.
Writing these matters has given me a sense of fulfillment for now. Nice. Ready to slip behind my mask of normalcy again.
As a side note I am slowly continuing to do work in finding practical tools for controlling one's life through socionics. I'm not yet certain that there will be an end product that is worthy of being written here about.
And finally, about the superlatives thread... I've cured a couple of cancers this year. I also intend to continue being helpful and intimidating.
Be scared, be very very scared
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
So you see yourself as ESTj?
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Affirmative.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Re: On homes
Your posts are always source of great insightI haven't been writing here particularly much since Ive been feeling that most of what is discussed these days is a rehash and most questions on socionics that people ask I've already answered so it doesn't seem to important to repeat myself all the time.
I'm now writing here mainly because this is the only place I've felt comfortable expressing my negative feelings for quite some time. That's something really rare. Anyway, I've been handling this thing like a blog on the basis that it might be possible for people to learn something about what ever type I am at any particular time by reading it. I continue to suppose that I'm an ESTj and so the continuation in using this thread.
First of all, I no longer find it easy to act ENTj, I'm much more complete ESTj these days. The discomfort I experienced in the beginning is gone. There is no longer any need for the showy bursts of anger that I used to experience. The sense of duty, complimented by a sense of estrangement from other people is now all-encompassing. There is a sort of hopelessness that is balanced by a feel of personal control I haven't had for a long time. A strange thing that somewhat interests me is that in my clinical work I'm loved by my patients. Not a week goes by that I don't hear extra compliments and favourable comparisons to other, more experienced clinical doctors. This despite that I feel a sort of mixed disgust, fear and hatred towards my patients. It is these feelings that feed my sense of duty and politeness towards them. I need to mask my actual feelings somehow. It also pushes me toward greater exertions in making correct diagnoses and finding better treatments for their ailments. I do not expect any leniency or any mercy if I happen to make a mistake. Naturally I do make them though usually I'm the only one to notice. This feeds my humility. I can not rest. And yet, still despite being constantly stressed I'm sleeping better than for years. My insomnia is gone. All the problems around me seem easy enough to handle as long as I give all of my attention to the problems around me.
Interestingly it feels impossible that I could have written some of the things I have written on the forum. Some of the messages seem so useless, so odd. Even the idea that I've spent such a major amount of time with a simple technique like socionics feels strange.
Another interesting feeling I have is as if everyone around me was intellectually particularly slow. Now usually this is of course correct since I treat a whole lot of dementia patients but that's not the real issue. The real issue is that this is not accompanied by a feeling of personal intelligence. I mean, I actually do feel sharper than I used to a couple of years ago, but my own personal failures are constantly so apparent to me that I do not feel I am a particularly smart or good or succesfull in any way. The problem is just that the people around me seem so abysmally horribly stupid that it's almost surreal. No, not surreal. Actually everything feels very concrete at the moment, very not -surreal. They feel more like blocks of wood, or animatronic dolls.
Yet another interesting thing that I've found is a common ground with the main character of "American psycho". I used to think that the book was simply a pulp novel about a mixture of high class life style and depraved violence. I used to ignore the several cases in which the main character suggests that his main motivation is simply to blend in, quite strange coming from a character that cuts people up for fun. Yet it is exactly this attempt to blend in, to imitate mechanically the actions of others that is the primary cause of the violence. Unable to see the full purpose of the behaviours he imitates, the main character feels victimized by others, having to follow nonsensical rules. He simultaneously detests anyone who breaks the rules of for example "having to wear designer clothes" yet he also hates the rule itself and what it does to him. His actual warm feelings are toward a person who is simply out of the world that he inhabits, towards his secretary who is simply too genuine, too warm, too caring to have anything to do with the rules he imagines. From the main character's point of view his murderous urges are not only random aggression, they are acts of vengeance. Read into that what you will. I also feel the urge to remind that I too cut people up, well, weekly. It's just that people ask me to do that and thank me afterwards.
Writing these matters has given me a sense of fulfillment for now. Nice. Ready to slip behind my mask of normalcy again.
As a side note I am slowly continuing to do work in finding practical tools for controlling one's life through socionics. I'm not yet certain that there will be an end product that is worthy of being written here about.
And finally, about the superlatives thread... I've cured a couple of cancers this year. I also intend to continue being helpful and intimidating.
Be scared, be very very scared
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Re: On homes
Really? What insight did you get?
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Re: On homes
don't take offense but I can't ever read more than a few sentences of your posts... must be the functional thing. You use alot ofReally? What insight did you get?or something I guess. I like short and sweet... or if it's long it at least needs to be funny. ehhh I don't know why I'm posting this... seems like it could be taken as kind of dickish (not how I meant it though)
*steps back out of Delta blushing*
I don't read anything if it's more than a few sentences.
Hahaha... same here. Although Smilingeyes' posts are one of the few exceptions. (and this is not flattery, it's the truth)
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Re: On homes
I've sometimes felt like this in regard to certain situations, but I had never been able to articulate the workings of my mind.Really? What insight did you get?
Of course the context has to be changed since I'm not a doctor.Not a week goes by that I don't hear extra compliments and favourable comparisons to other, more experienced clinical doctors. This despite that I feel a sort of mixed disgust, fear and hatred towards my patients. It is these feelings that feed my sense of duty and politeness towards them. I need to mask my actual feelings somehow. It also pushes me toward greater exertions in making correct diagnoses and finding better treatments for their ailments. I do not expect any leniency or any mercy if I happen to make a mistake. Naturally I do make them though usually I'm the only one to notice.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Re: On homes
S'okay. I fully expect everyone to act dickish.
...
@FDG:
Ah, that's nice. Very reasonable that you'd have that kind of a feeling too. Very good.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I usually hate reading really long posts. But yours was strangely interesting, I read every word.
Wondering... You mean you used to find it easy to act like an LIE?
INTp
sx/sp
Quite. There is probably still a suitably large contignent on the forum that believes I am ENTj and some that claim me as another type. I have heard ENFj, ESFj, INFp, INTj and ESTp mentioned. Why is this interesting to you?
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
INTp
sx/sp
Another day, another blog post.
This one's about arguing on the forum.
There's a tactic a close ISTp friend of my ex-wife uses in semi-public arguments. The ISTp woman acts very hurt in public, then goes on to make peace in private and then she says something demeaning of the other person in public and only then does she see the issue somewhat settled. I don't know how much of this is typical of all IPs. I have a very close friend who does something similar-seeming and he's INTp. But I don't fight with him so I don't really see this very often. For the record, I think it's a very clever tactic and I applaud it. It maximizes pr value to all directions.
Now I've been arguing... well, a decent amount on the forum and my most recent argument was with a supposed INFp. Said INFp actually posted a very nice private mail to me, the actual contents of which I won't disclose though, because the person said it in private and I guess expects it to remain so. Now I really don't know if the person meant anything that mail said and I find quite possible that it was a calculated show-act, but either way I'm actually trying to get this story to be about my reactions.
Previously I've bashed on quite a few people on the forum and off the forum. At first I did it as "a public service", bashing people on obvious or particularly annoying mistakes. I guess there was an element of trying to establish myself here, a bit of competition involved. ... Later on it became a bit of a sport. At that point I was trying to turn ESTj and one of the ways to do that was to break my inhibitions, the need to be the nice guy. To get rid of all that ENFj-ENTj morality thing. To get high on rage. There was a personal need so I didn't pick targets particularly well. Some of it happened in private mails. Either way, I'm slightly surprised I didn't get any warnings at that time.
Anyway...Though an ESTj may be full of anger and so on and though I still feel quite often the urge to throw someone out the window I don't feel the need to push for fights anymore. My self confidence is better in some ways now (and worse in others)... I'm no longer a victim, I'm a caretaker. I'm no longer a weak, often wronged ENTj, I'm a macho ESTj. Stupid isnt it? But seriously, I feel different. I tried to get in the feel of demolishing someone's argument and position like I used to but the feeling wasn't there anymore. Now there's just a big question: why would I want to kick someone's arse? So ok, someone says something that I think is stupid, so what? Okay, let's say that someone says something demeaning of me, so what? The bottom line is that its very unlikely that anything that happens here affects me in any significant way. This should be obvious. But nevertheless I used to feel vulnerable somehow. I don't seem to anymore. Am I getting old? Maybe.
I was going to analyze a bit more my most recent argument on the forum, point out the 8 errors on socionics I referred to in said argument, give some tips on how to make better insults, that kind of thing, but I don't really see that there's anything in it for me to do something like that. I think I'm just going to have some blueberries and do some leg presses.
...
Incidentally, I think joy and electric were both right on their argument, just pushing different points about the same matter.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I really really hope that the people who blame corporate america about everything start to notice that it's not the ENTjs who fuck things up. It's us ESTjs that cause the corruption. We're way more evil.
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
How's that?
There's many ways to look at this.
First, if we look at the characteristics that the two types try to avoid...
An ENTj does not act like an ESFj, s/he does not serve individuals, get mixed up in minor affairs etc. An ENTj is not social. They act like they are above it all, something that may be annoying but is not in and of itself harmful.
An ESTj does not act like an ENFj, s/he does not care about the large scale effects of hir activities or morals. An ESTj is not ethical. They act as they had no humanity, something that is far more worrysome.
The general thrust of the accusation against ENTjs is that they tend to occupy positions of power. Yet the position of power exists independent of the person occupying it. By and large ENTjs are occupied with ideas of optimal solutions, long-term growth, mutually beneficial solutions and other issues that revolve around cooperation and compromise.
ESTj activity on the other hand is about accomplishing a goal in the quickest most efficient and most exact way. If in business terms being an ENTj is about finding good deals an entering businesses, being ESTj is about cashing in. These two ways to act work hand in hand to create profit for the person but it is theurge that creates business and the
urge that creates personal cash accounts.
The reason that ESTjs are generally not seen as the heart of evil capitalism seems to me to be that we actually work, get our hands dirty and generally act like little people, something that occasionally causes sympathy or somesuch. Yet this is happenstance. Let's put one of us in a position of power, in similar circumstances as our ENTj cousins and the results for the general populace won't be nearly as good. We're far more likely to exhibit corruption, have guzzling SUVs, arrange huge parties for our friends and generally use the power entrusted to us for the benefit of ourselves and our personal friends.
The basic urge, when encountering an ailing business for example would from the ENTj pov be to create a new business model and establish better business practices. The ESTjs urge would be to cut the business into pieces and sell the parts losing all the jobs and getting cash.
Also, while an ENTj's pay check is likely larger than the ESTj's the ENTj is likely to be more frugal, have most of his money in stock and other items that are not tied to their person but are creating even more growth. Meanwhile the ESTj is far more likely to use hir money for personal purposes, removing the cash from business growth and diverting the flow of currency toward luxury items and personal comfort.
These differences are of course most easily seen in the extremes of the
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
Hmm.....
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Social being a reference to the name of the SF club. SF's are called social because of particular properties that NT's do not have. An ENTj is extrovert and open and so on but not particularly likely to be very sympathetic toward individuals' plight and concerns or spend personal resources for the help of random other people. An ENTj is more likely to network than to socialize.Hmm.....
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
That entire post makes me wonder about being ESTj.
First, if we look at the characteristics that the two types try to avoid...
An ENTj does not act like an ESFj, s/he does not serve individuals, get mixed up in minor affairs etc. An ENTj is not social. They act like they are above it all, something that may be annoying but is not in and of itself harmful.
An ESTj does not act like an ENFj, s/he does not care about the large scale effects of hir activities or morals. An ESTj is not ethical. They act as they had no humanity, something that is far more worrysome.
I will network, but I can't stand socializing.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
ENTj > ESTj there.The basic urge, when encountering an ailing business for example would from the ENTj pov be to create a new business model and establish better business practices. The ESTjs urge would be to cut the business into pieces and sell the parts losing all the jobs and getting cash.
Huge parties, SUVs? Never.The reason that ESTjs are generally not seen as the heart of evil capitalism seems to me to be that we actually work, get our hands dirty and generally act like little people, something that occasionally causes sympathy or somesuch. Yet this is happenstance. Let's put one of us in a position of power, in similar circumstances as our ENTj cousins and the results for the general populace won't be nearly as good. We're far more likely to exhibit corruption, have guzzling SUVs, arrange huge parties for our friends and generally use the power entrusted to us for the benefit of ourselves and our personal friends.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I know you are portraying the ENTjs in a much better light than ESTjs in that post, but as far as the principles you are talking about, that is what makes me question things.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
*shrug*... I'm happy in the knowledge that ENTjs when compared with ESTjs are also weak and complete fuck-ups. Whether you are either of these types I don't know. What made you switch types from INTj anyway? And have you considered Ti-type ESTp already?
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
I'm not irrational. I wrote a massive explanation in my thread in "What's my type" entitled "ESTj". Not sure if I removed it already or not.
Basically, and especially now that I am back in college, the Se polr, and IJ tempermeant is not fitting. I know I am rational, and have weak ethics.
I realized I am extremely "serious" as opposed to merry/Fe in the process. I feel confident about not being alpha or beta. I seem to prefer alphas>betas, which still makes me think Delta.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Hmm, ok, fair enough. You do need to take into account though that the comparisons I used were actually based onI'm not irrational. I wrote a massive explanation in my thread in "What's my type" entitled "ESTj". Not sure if I removed it already or not.
Basically, and especially now that I am back in college, the Se polr, and IJ tempermeant is not fitting. I know I am rational, and have weak ethics.
I realized I am extremely "serious" as opposed to merry/Fe in the process. I feel confident about not being alpha or beta. I seem to prefer alphas>betas, which still makes me think Delta.
EDIT: Found it. You'd removed your original post but there was still enough. I can believe the
First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.
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